ManBungalow wrote:And, as ever, map-making is voluntary. Why should we ban a user from doing something voluntary which can only be:
A] Of no consequence (is abandoned)
B] Beneficial (new map)
An abandoned map causes no harm to the community.
Exactly, mapmaking is voluntary, no one forces you to start a map. A very good reason to not spend energies onto something that everyone knows will require time and effort if you're not sure that develop a map is something you really want to do.
I don't think that abandon a map project causes no harm to the community. Every single map project has a big impact on the community. All maps are developed with the support of community and mods and abandon a map is like spit on the time all these have spent on the map. I strongly believe that abandon a map is detrimental for the community: imagine that you start a project. imagine that I'm a foundry user and that i enjoy to support map projects and give advices to mapmakers. At some point you abandon the project without a reason. How do you think i can feel? How long do you think I can continue to spend my time to suggest and give advice if all that time is just wasted? I think that after a while I will stop to comment or worst I'll stop to visit the foundry.
I think you can realize how much time is required to give a real feedback on a map, i think that you need at least 20 mins to study a map and give real advice for it. It's not just few secs like you said. Few secs are enough only to write "I like it" and click submit.
To the foundry goers support add the mods effort, I can't count the number of hours that my team spend at looking maps or to discuss together to try to help the mapmaker to develop the best possible map.
Now that you have figured out all these things you can easily understand that, being voluntary, you can have the right to use your time as you want and maybe waste it. But imo you have no right to waste the time that everyone else has spent on your map.
I really don't want people stop to post and suggest because a mapmaker can abandon a map. People has not to support maps only when the map is not well accepted, shitty...in few words only when the community and the site don't want it. In theory this should be the only reason behind a NOT successful map project: no audience for it.
Remember that maps are done for the community and supported by the community....so if you want to make a map you must bear in mind that the respect for the community must be one of the most important things, probably the most important.
ManBungalow wrote:but the mods/contributors are volunteering similarly - they don't have to spend time commenting on maps which may go on to be abandoned.
Sorry but this is a nonsense. the foundry has always build on the community contribution. If you want people stop to comment on maps, then we can close the foundry now. In addition mods are not nostradamus so how we can understand in advance if a map will be abandoned?
We don't work on maps thinking that they can be abandoned, but instead we work on maps thinking how to allow/help the mapmaker to develop the best possible map he can do.
I want to use this small paragraph to made clear that we're not talking about map ideas here, but instead about map project that has received at least the draft stamp.
I will never stop to stress about the fact that the draft stamp is one of the most important stamp. When a map receive the draft stamp, it means that the site approves the ideas and that the community wants that map. this is the big difference between a map idea and an approved draft. right now koontz1973 has the burdain to understand what map ideas and draft are worth to become CC official maps. We're talking about a 15000 memember community, it's like a small town. When he stamps a map he is acting in the place of an entire community. Don't look at the draft stamp like a one person action because it's not in this way. the stamp is just a symbol used for a business purpose, the real important aspect is what there's behind that small red image.
ManBungalow wrote:To be honest, the qualifying 'first stamp' criterion for a map development which can then be punishable ("mapmaker is subject to this [disciplinary] system for each map that will receive at least a stamp") if abandoned would only serve to make me shy away from getting the draft stamp.
To my eyes, be afraid about receiving a draft stamp is another nonsense. Let me make a similar example using RL. It's like when you have exams at university. You studied a lot and you're going to discuss your subject. You might fail, it's true. But you don't take your exam to fail, but to succeed. In the same way you don't have to think that the draft stamp means you can be punished (rejected) but instead that you're ready for your exam and that your objective is to pass it. In addition here you have someone that can help you to pass it!
Remember, mods and community are not here to see your map project fail but for the opposite reason.
ManBungalow wrote:A map idea should be a map idea, and no one user should be limited to 5 ideas (then banned).
A map idea is a map idea, you can post an infinite number of ideas, the policy doesn't apply on ideas, nor on earlier draft. Here we're talking only about approved projects.
ManBungalow wrote:Not to mention that real life can get in the way of map development.
This is an important aspect and the policy take it into consideration. We know that shit happens. No one has a life without unexpected events.
This is why we have a ladder system in which you will receive 2 warnings before to receive the first ban.
In addition if you notice 2 levels have the same amount of time (6 months), but they are different.
The first ban is a specific one, the second is a generic one. what's the difference?
The first 6 months ban is applied only on the role you have in the abandoned project. It means that if you are the graphics developer and you reach the 3rd step, you won't be allowed to draw another map for 6 months. But in those 6 months you can help with gameplay or draw the xml for another map.
The second ban instead is generic so simply you can't take part to any project during that time; starting with that project. The ban is only applied on starting new map project not on projects that are currently into the process.
So if for example you have a map in gameplay and another in graphics and you decide to abandon the map in gameplay, you're still allowed to continue the one in graphics BUT you can't start a new one (obviously if you have already reached the 3rd step)
So the system is done again to push people to finish map projects and not to abandon them.
In addition look at the notes in the policy. Like nolefan has said we will give you 6 months before to consider the map abandoned. If your life is so messy to not give you a way to update a map for 6 month, then probably you have more serious issues than finish a map or being banned from the foundry for some months.
Moreover I decided to leave a case by case option because we will never know. It's obvious that if something really important or serious has happened to you, I'm won't be so bastard to ban you just for the sake of it. I always try to take into consideration the man behind the username; yeah rules are rules but they must be applied with a bit of salt.
And in any case 6 months are not so few time, I want you really think about how many things happen or you do in a such long period of time.
Finally, I'm not a person who believe in a punishment given without a purpose. I always hope that people is able to understand something if punished, I always hope that people can find the good in something bad and learn from it. That's why we might consider to allow people to move on the ladder also in the opposite way. It doesn't means you can "stack credits" to abandon future maps, but we might take into consideration the fact you will resecue a your own abandoned map project. So, if for example you reach the 3rd step and after some time you complete the same abandoned map, you might find yourself again at the 2nd step. As said I'm a true "redention" believer.
So you have to really pass the line to be considered life banned from mapmaking. Let me state clear from now that if you reach the 5th step there's no way to go back. But if you have understood how it works you have to really pass the line to reach that point.
chapcrap wrote:As far as the punishment goes, I agree with it. We do something similar with tournaments and it works fine. Lindax set it up quite a while ago and it prevents users from wasting TDs time and players time with tournaments that do not finish. We also have a tournament rescue policy, like the maps have now it seems. So, I think this is good work.
Yeah, I took inspiration from it. I ever wanted to create consistency between maps and tournaments. To my eyes both activities have the same importance, so they need to be treated in the same way. Moreover the system you use has proven to work properly, so why to not have something similar for maps?
chapcrap wrote:Well, I would move the Atlas out, because as is, it looks like it is under Beta maps. Which, is really the opposite...
About this I have no problem, like i said earlier and your statement makes sense from a certain point of view.
Just I would like to understand if it's just you or not. Gimme the time to collect some feedback on it.