Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

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Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:23 pm

I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby trinicardinal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:54 pm

I'd expect that there definitely is some inadvertent point dropping as a result of the trench games. Even experienced players can get caught by it and I would not be surprised if some people are taking advantage of this fact. Alternatively there will be many who are using this setting simply because they like the strategies involved or that it is relatively new... or even just to get the medal. Speaking personally I like the setting but always try to keep my settings a bit varied and I don't really play that many games any more... mostly tournaments for now.

I think you would get a good idea about the intent by looking at the map and the rest of the settings though.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby hmsps on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:00 pm

Do you have any game numbers for us to have a look at. I play a fair bit of trench as it just adds to tactical awareness
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby maasman on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:01 pm

It may be unusual for many, but trench was actually the only way I played at home until I found CC, which is one of the reasons I love it so much. I don't play many games on it, but eventually I will again.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:04 pm

Thanks.
I want to be clear that I don't have anything against the setting per se, I'm just noticing quite a few fog-trench games filling up with cooks, etc..
I realize that a lot of players are just starving for something new and this setting is just what they have been looking for.

EDIT: Hmsps, just look at the waiting games list for an idea of what I'm referring to. Lambs to the slaughter comes to mind.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:10 pm

trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:15 pm

betiko wrote:trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.


I would say that knowing this alone would be enough for an experienced trench player to completely obliterate a newer/inexperienced player?
I realize that there is always an advantage gained by experienced player over an inexperienced but this setting just seems to tip the scale to the point where even amazing dice would not lead a new player to victory. Perhaps a warning flag is in order?
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby KraphtOne on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:16 pm

i'd say 50% of the trench games i set up are joined by someone that says "(insert explicit word here)man, i didnt know it was trench"
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby codierose on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:48 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
betiko wrote:trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.


I would say that knowing this alone would be enough for an experienced trench player to completely obliterate a newer/inexperienced player?
I realize that there is always an advantage gained by experienced player over an inexperienced but this setting just seems to tip the scale to the point where even amazing dice would not lead a new player to victory. Perhaps a warning flag is in order?

yep your right and was brought up when it first came out
there are certain maps with certain settings will guarantee wins great if your medal hunting or the other. and leads to a lot of players dead beating because its quicker to end the game. suggestions have already been raised about a i quit button etc but probably will not happen. regarding a warning flag cant see that ever being implemented there isn't one for freestyle
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby AAFitz on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:39 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.


It fundamentally changes the game so much that its the only reason I came back to play CC so much and hardly play any other type of game, would be my reasoning, but I cant speak for anyone else.

If you dont see the attraction of it, all I can say is to each his own, but youre missing out.

If I had to choose between never playing standard, or trench again, I absolutely would quit standard for all eternity.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby AAFitz on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:40 pm

KraphtOne wrote:i'd say 50% of the trench games i set up are joined by someone that says "(insert explicit word here)man, i didnt know it was trench"


I play trench so much now, I actually say shit, I didnt realize it wasnt trench!
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sekretar: "i go to russia and then, without comp, i hoppe, i forgot this shit who kill my nerves long time!"
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:45 pm

AAFitz wrote:
KraphtOne wrote:i'd say 50% of the trench games i set up are joined by someone that says "(insert explicit word here)man, i didnt know it was trench"


I play trench so much now, I actually say shit, I didnt realize it wasnt trench!


I love trench and find myself doing the same :)

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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:49 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.

I'd say it's the opposite.

Trench plays out much more like a real wargame. Risk (and regular Risk-based CC) is basically an abomination, in that as long as your troops are winning, you can continue advancing indefinitely. This leads to the Escalating Sweep, which I do admit is a great high, but it's not the way normal Avalon Hill or any other normal wargames play out. In most (non-Risk) wargames troops have a finite movement (or impulse, or some other term) and cannot move more than their specified movement in a turn. That might not be exactly what Trench is, but it's closer to it that freewheeling escalators.

So, I would say that non-Trench is counter-intuitive to a new player, and Trench, where once you capture an area you have a decent chance to hold it for a while, is much more what a regular person would expect from a wargame.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Just_essence on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:59 pm

It's why Escalating endgame comes as a shock to a player whose stacks seemed perfectly threatening in order to deter attacks from his POV, but he does not see that the spoils are much higher than his stacks, and thus is hit by a storm of attacks that leave a once-decent empire in ruins. Trench warfare is more stable, and although I hate it for its lack of mobility and tactics in real life, it seems to be more applicable here, as an Escalating Sequential sweep basically means that your troops have supervehicles that can traverse a country as fast as you can click the Assault button, no rest needed, and that apparently your enemies are always sleeping when you play.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:47 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I'm not really into trench but I've been seeing a ton of games being started with this setting and have nearly accidentally joined a few. Is this merely due to it being a new "fun" setting or is there maybe a little "innocent" farming going on?
I can see an inexperienced player joining a game on a complex map and having a hard time but they could be expected to at least have played risk before and have an inkling of how to play with a good hearty reading of the legend. However, if it were a trench game I should think they would be completely and utterly screwed.
So, having introduced myself as not playing very much trench games, what is everyone's opinion on how much inadvertent point dropping is going on due to this new setting? I ask because I really have no idea, it just seems that there is an inordinate amount of games with this setting considering how unusual it actually is. I am totally willing to accept that this is just a result of "riding the wave" of a new setting but would like to have a gauge of what's really behind the popularity of the new setting.

I'd say it's the opposite.

Trench plays out much more like a real wargame. Risk (and regular Risk-based CC) is basically an abomination, in that as long as your troops are winning, you can continue advancing indefinitely. This leads to the Escalating Sweep, which I do admit is a great high, but it's not the way normal Avalon Hill or any other normal wargames play out. In most (non-Risk) wargames troops have a finite movement (or impulse, or some other term) and cannot move more than their specified movement in a turn. That might not be exactly what Trench is, but it's closer to it that freewheeling escalators.

So, I would say that non-Trench is counter-intuitive to a new player, and Trench, where once you capture an area you have a decent chance to hold it for a while, is much more what a regular person would expect from a wargame.


Opposite of what, specifically?
I'm assuming you mean the part about a new player not having a chance in a trench game? If so, my original point was that most people come here knowing how to play risk at least as it exists as a board game and therefore have the basic tools needed to play a non-trench game. Everyone who has played the RL version is aware of what happens when an escalating game progresses but different types of reinforcements/spoils are one thing, trench warfare is more a less a whole new and different animal.
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