Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Ray Rider on Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:32 am

spurgistan wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, one of these things involves publicly available information, and the other one doesn't. That, to me, is the difference. If reporters addresses are also in the public record somehow, then I'm fine with it.

I thought the quote said that the map was created by googling the newspaper employees and by using information which was publicly available through state law? I can't say I've paid much attention to this issue besides skimming this thread, but from what I can see, both maps were created using public information. I'd still say both maps should never have been made, but at least I can understand the motive of the people who created the second map.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Borderdawg on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:31 am

spurgistan wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, one of these things involves publicly available information, and the other one doesn't. That, to me, is the difference. If reporters addresses are also in the public record somehow, then I'm fine with it.


How about the phone book? Can't get much more public than that. :D
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:33 pm

After the Journal News published interactive maps detailing where gun owners live in a number of New York counties in late December, people all across the nation decried the move as an invasion of privacy and a danger to the families.

A number of ex-burglars told Fox News that the list would prove invaluable to criminals, telling them which houses to avoid or rob, depending on what they wanted.

It was revealed on Sunday that one of the homes identified by the paper was targeted by burglars over the weekend, though a connection to the Journal News has not been proven.

New York’s Westchester/Rockland Newsday has noteworthy details on the break-in (all subsequent emphasis added):

A White Plains residence pinpointed on a controversial handgun permit database was burglarized Saturday, and the burglars’ target was the homeowner’s gun safe.

At least two burglars broke into a home on Davis Avenue at 9:30 p.m. Saturday but were unsuccessful in an attempt to open the safe, which contained legally owned weapons, according to a law enforcement source. One suspect was taken into custody, the source said.

The gun owner was not home when the burglary occurred, the source said. The victim, who is in his 70s, told Newsday on Sunday that he did not want to comment while the police investigation continues.

[...]

Neighbor John Mascia said he thought the gun permit database should not have been published.

“I could [not] care less what they have in their home,” Mascia said.

Police are investigating what role, if any, the database played in the burglars’ decision to target the home, the law enforcement source said.

Republican State Senator Greg Ball of New York released a strongly-worded statement on the matter Sunday, adding that he plans to introduce legislation to better protect the identities of gun owners in the future:

“The Journal News has placed the lives of these folks at risk by creating a virtual shopping list for criminals and nut jobs. If the connection is proven, this is further proof that these maps are not only an invasion of privacy but that they present a clear and present danger to law-abiding, private citizens. Former convicts have already testified to the usefulness of the asinine Journal News ‘gun maps’ yet the reckless editors are evidently willing to roll the dice, gambling with the lives of innocent local homeowners,” Senator Greg Ball said.

[...]

“The same elitist eggheads who use their editorial page to coddle terrorists and criminals are now treating law abiding citizens like level three sexual predators. These bills are critical to keep folks safe and fundamentally protect their inherent right to privacy… This is not about the Second Amendment; these bills are simply about commonsense and personal privacy. Publishing this information on a website, as we have evidently just witnessed in the recent attempted gun burglary, provides criminals with a map of where they can steal firearms from lawful owners for later use in the commission of crimes. This legislation is critical,” said Senator Greg Ball.

Ball wasn’t the only one to call out the Journal News in the wake of the robbery. Senator Ball’s office adds:

In addition to Senator Ball’s legislation, the Vice President of the Affiliated Police Association of Westchester County, Robert Buckley, said in a letter [that] publishing these maps online is jeopardizing the safety of residents and is irresponsible.

“The Affiliated Police Association of Westchester County Inc. is putting The Journal News on notice that we will hold [them] accountable for any incident where any of our over 25,000 members are involved with an incident where a criminal or ex-con presents themselves at the residence of one of our members as a result of their name being made public by [their] newspaper,” said Buckley.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/01/13/house-identified-on-ny-papers-gun-map-burglarized-and-the-robbers-went-straight-for-the-guns/
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:10 am



That's it. I think it's high time we start shutting down newspapers and controlling the media to stop these things from happening. No sense in just creating a counterweight, we've got to add more controls, like approved articles from a central authority. It must be done in order to protect our good.


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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:50 am

AndyDufresne wrote:


That's it. I think it's high time we start shutting down newspapers and controlling the media to stop these things from happening. No sense in just creating a counterweight, we've got to add more controls, like approved articles from a central authority. It must be done in order to protect our good.


--Andy


That's right. When the two come into conflict, the First Amendment always takes a backseat to the Second.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:39 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:


That's it. I think it's high time we start shutting down newspapers and controlling the media to stop these things from happening. No sense in just creating a counterweight, we've got to add more controls, like approved articles from a central authority. It must be done in order to protect our good.


--Andy


That's right. When the two come into conflict, the First Amendment always takes a backseat to the Second.


I agree, but if we put people in backseat, we shouldn't shoot them in the head because it ruins the interior. Better to take them somewhere remote, and then shoot them in the head.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Lootifer on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:07 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:


That's it. I think it's high time we start shutting down newspapers and controlling the media to stop these things from happening. No sense in just creating a counterweight, we've got to add more controls, like approved articles from a central authority. It must be done in order to protect our good.


--Andy


That's right. When the two come into conflict, the First Amendment always takes a backseat to the Second.


I agree, but if we put people in backseat, we shouldn't shoot them in the head because it ruins the interior. Better to take them somewhere remote, and then shoot them in the head.

IT WAS A FUCKING BUMP IN THE ROAD ALRIGHT?! SERIOUSLY I DIDNT MEAN TO SHOOT HIM IN THE HEAD!

As an aside, Tarantinos dialog in the following scene has to be one of my favourite scenes of all time.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:37 pm

Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:


That's it. I think it's high time we start shutting down newspapers and controlling the media to stop these things from happening. No sense in just creating a counterweight, we've got to add more controls, like approved articles from a central authority. It must be done in order to protect our good.


--Andy


That's right. When the two come into conflict, the First Amendment always takes a backseat to the Second.


I agree, but if we put people in backseat, we shouldn't shoot them in the head because it ruins the interior. Better to take them somewhere remote, and then shoot them in the head.

IT WAS A FUCKING BUMP IN THE ROAD ALRIGHT?! SERIOUSLY I DIDNT MEAN TO SHOOT HIM IN THE HEAD!

As an aside, Tarantinos dialog in the following scene has to be one of my favourite scenes of all time.


Oh, you 'ol rascal, you.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:04 am

Good work, Mets, BBS, Lootifer, and myself. Our work here is done...for now.


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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:00 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
In retaliation against the New York newspaper — the Journal News — that published the addresses of those pistol permit holders in two of the state’s counties, a blogger has created a map pinpointing the addresses of the newspaper’s employees.

Mimicking the title of the Journal News’ original article, Robert Cox with “Talk of the Sound” headlined his post: Map: Where are the Journal News employees in your neighborhood?
Robert Cox With Talk of the Sound Creates Map of Journal News Employees in Retaliation to Gun Permit Map

He wrote:

The map indicates the addresses of all Journal News Employees in the New York Tri-State area. Each dot represents an individual Journal News employee — a reporter, editor or staffer. The data does not include freelancers — reporters or photographers — which can be hired without being an employee. Being included in this map does not mean the individual at a specific location is a responsible reporter or editor, just that they are a reporter or editor.

[...]

To create the map, Talk of the Sound submitted Google searches for the names and addresses of all Journal News employees in the New York Tri-State area. By state law, the information is public record.

Cox went onto explain that putting together the map has been a crowd-sourced effort between other bloggers and readers. He wrote the map will be updated as more information continues to become available.

He also noted that since the publication has downsized in recent years, some of the names of employees might not be current. So far, dozens of names and addresses have been collected and published.

See the full-size map here.

Another blogger has been curating the names and addresses of News Journal employees as well (via Beta Beat). Christopher Fountain, a Greenwich, Conn., real estate agent on his blog For What It’s Worth, generally composes posts about real estate and home improvement, has been voicing his thoughts on the News Journal’s publishing of gun owner addresses and also recently linked Cox’s interactive map of employee addresses.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/blogger-retaliates-against-paper-that-published-gun-owner-addresses-by-creating-interactive-map-of-its-employees/


Wow, a shitty thing to do in the first place, but talk about retaliation. More fear for all involved. Are these bloggers trying to show that publishing this kind of information is legal? Or that if you post this kind of information, there will be threatening repercussions?

Probably a good idea not to read TheBlaze, Glenn Beck is still a recipe for paranoia. I could cry.

Meh, it's just tit for tat. The newsapaper did a stupid thing by publishing the location of every handgun owner in the area, and someone decided to do the same thing back to make them see what it feels like. What's the harm in that?


Except, of course, that the Blaze did both- publishing a link to the list and publishing a link to the list of the blogger who retaliated. Recipes for paranoia are Beck's recipe for success.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby notyou2 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:52 pm

Don't ban the guns, restrict the ammunition. There, everyone is happy. Gun owners have their guns, and people that don't want to be shot feel better too.

Next sticky issue please.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:37 pm

notyou2 wrote:Don't ban the guns, restrict the ammunition. There, everyone is happy. Gun owners have their guns, and people that don't want to be shot feel better too.

Next sticky issue please.

LOL.. actually, this has been mentioned.. limiting the purchase of certain high count magazines, plus the idea of background checks when buying ammunition.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Baron Von PWN on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:06 pm

just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:10 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!

You should post this in the "Free Market in America would solve" topic.


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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:31 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!


It's worked with tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, soda, and gasoline... why not guns?
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Night Strike on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:50 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!

You should post this in the "Free Market in America would solve" topic.


--Andy


How is adding an obscene amount of taxes to a specific product a Free Market Principle?
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Baron Von PWN on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:54 pm

Night Strike wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!

You should post this in the "Free Market in America would solve" topic.


--Andy


How is adding an obscene amount of taxes to a specific product a Free Market Principle?


It's correcting a problem through market forces!
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Night Strike on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:06 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!

You should post this in the "Free Market in America would solve" topic.


--Andy


How is adding an obscene amount of taxes to a specific product a Free Market Principle?


It's correcting a problem through market forces!


Through the manipulation of market forces by the government.

True free market forces are supply, demand, innovation, efficiency, etc.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby spurgistan on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:13 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!


It's worked with tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, soda, and gasoline... why not guns?


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... 57737774/1

I dunno much about the efficacy of the other vice taxes you mentioned (and would argue against gasoline's inclusion based on poor substitutes for gasoline in the American economy), and I imagine that the soda tax is too recent for any real data to have emerged (which is to say my googling was inconclusive) but yeah. Vice taxes work sometimes.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:45 pm

spurgistan wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!


It's worked with tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, soda, and gasoline... why not guns?


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... 57737774/1

I dunno much about the efficacy of the other vice taxes you mentioned (and would argue against gasoline's inclusion based on poor substitutes for gasoline in the American economy), and I imagine that the soda tax is too recent for any real data to have emerged (which is to say my googling was inconclusive) but yeah. Vice taxes work sometimes.



Suppose we implement a 100% tax on all ammunition and ammunition products.
Henry, a disgruntled guy, takes his gun (whichever he already owns) or he takes a gun from a relative.
Instead of spending $10 on 50 bullets, he has to spend $20 because of the tax.
He finds a place where he can maximize his impact (gun-free zone, no security guards, etc.).
Then he kills a bunch of people.


He doesn't need that many bullets to kill people, so even a 100% tax won't curb this particular behavior. If someone really wants to kill a bunch of people, I don't see why they would be sensitive to price changes.
Since he's committing suicide after his task, then he won't be worried about how much of a chunk those bullets will remove from his budget. Furthermore, why not charge it to credit? A $200 spending limit should cover even the most onerous of taxes.


Most importantly, who does this really punish? Normal consumers of bullets, who are not crazy and/or dangerous people. It also punishes producers because the tax may reduce demand--depending on the elasticity of the curves.

So, how is this tax justifiable? It isn't.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:52 pm

spurgistan wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!


It's worked with tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, soda, and gasoline... why not guns?


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... 57737774/1

I dunno much about the efficacy of the other vice taxes you mentioned (and would argue against gasoline's inclusion based on poor substitutes for gasoline in the American economy), and I imagine that the soda tax is too recent for any real data to have emerged (which is to say my googling was inconclusive) but yeah. Vice taxes work sometimes.


No offense to US Today, but it rained here yesterday and less people smoked in my office. Must be the taxes.

In the interest of non-snarkiness though, correlation does not equal causation. And guns aren't cigarettes.
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Baron Von PWN on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:22 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
spurgistan wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!


It's worked with tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, soda, and gasoline... why not guns?


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... 57737774/1

I dunno much about the efficacy of the other vice taxes you mentioned (and would argue against gasoline's inclusion based on poor substitutes for gasoline in the American economy), and I imagine that the soda tax is too recent for any real data to have emerged (which is to say my googling was inconclusive) but yeah. Vice taxes work sometimes.



Suppose we implement a 100% tax on all ammunition and ammunition products.
Henry, a disgruntled guy, takes his gun (whichever he already owns) or he takes a gun from a relative.
Instead of spending $10 on 50 bullets, he has to spend $20 because of the tax.
He finds a place where he can maximize his impact (gun-free zone, no security guards, etc.).
Then he kills a bunch of people.


He doesn't need that many bullets to kill people, so even a 100% tax won't curb this particular behavior. If someone really wants to kill a bunch of people, I don't see why they would be sensitive to price changes.
Since he's committing suicide after his task, then he won't be worried about how much of a chunk those bullets will remove from his budget. Furthermore, why not charge it to credit? A $200 spending limit should cover even the most onerous of taxes.


Most importantly, who does this really punish? Normal consumers of bullets, who are not crazy and/or dangerous people. It also punishes producers because the tax may reduce demand--depending on the elasticity of the curves.

So, how is this tax justifiable? It isn't.


Well at least it would help the deficit!
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:28 am

Baron Von PWN wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
spurgistan wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!


It's worked with tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, soda, and gasoline... why not guns?


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... 57737774/1

I dunno much about the efficacy of the other vice taxes you mentioned (and would argue against gasoline's inclusion based on poor substitutes for gasoline in the American economy), and I imagine that the soda tax is too recent for any real data to have emerged (which is to say my googling was inconclusive) but yeah. Vice taxes work sometimes.



Suppose we implement a 100% tax on all ammunition and ammunition products.
Henry, a disgruntled guy, takes his gun (whichever he already owns) or he takes a gun from a relative.
Instead of spending $10 on 50 bullets, he has to spend $20 because of the tax.
He finds a place where he can maximize his impact (gun-free zone, no security guards, etc.).
Then he kills a bunch of people.


He doesn't need that many bullets to kill people, so even a 100% tax won't curb this particular behavior. If someone really wants to kill a bunch of people, I don't see why they would be sensitive to price changes.
Since he's committing suicide after his task, then he won't be worried about how much of a chunk those bullets will remove from his budget. Furthermore, why not charge it to credit? A $200 spending limit should cover even the most onerous of taxes.


Most importantly, who does this really punish? Normal consumers of bullets, who are not crazy and/or dangerous people. It also punishes producers because the tax may reduce demand--depending on the elasticity of the curves.

So, how is this tax justifiable? It isn't.


Well at least it would help the deficit!


Yeah! Because we all know that politicians are so responsible when it comes to spending other people's money. Just give them more! Sure! They won't at all continue the deficit spending with extra revenue--no no no! Not them. Because politicians are altruistic. The bureaucrats tirelessly work at promoting the general interest, which is self-evident and easily known.

(The above paragraph sounds naive, but many people implicitly assume this about politicians. It's really weird).
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:06 am

Night Strike wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!

You should post this in the "Free Market in America would solve" topic.


--Andy


How is adding an obscene amount of taxes to a specific product a Free Market Principle?


-1 point for taking Free Market in America topic seriously.


--Andy
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Re: Should We Publish Names And Addresses of Gun Owners?

Postby Night Strike on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:33 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:just slap a 60% tax on all ammunition and amunition products. eventually it will be too prohibitively expensive to go on a shooting rampage. Bam problem solved!

You should post this in the "Free Market in America would solve" topic.


--Andy


How is adding an obscene amount of taxes to a specific product a Free Market Principle?


-1 point for taking Free Market in America topic seriously.


--Andy


+1 for completely avoiding that thread and not knowing whether it's a serious thread or a parody thread at this point in time.
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