F400 Ranking [Aug 15th Updated!] TOFU Leads!

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:28 pm

"If a job's worth doing it's worth doing well"

Both Josko and Ice are right in respect of wanting to record the results in proper chronological order, so yeah....a couple of weeks out can make a difference. As Ice says it can come down to a single point here or there. It may not seem like much, but when this ladder is the basis on which seedings are done for Clan League and Conqueror's Cup it can have a huge impact as it could put a clan either in a different division (league) or other half of the draw (cup).

The best solution is if the responsibility is placed on the warring clans to post their results here (we can't expect TO's to do it, nor for them to be prompt when moving a challenge to 'Completed'). So if every clan head is given implicit instructions to post clan vs clan results in this thread they will only have themselves to blame if they're not moving up the ladder (obviously I'd expect the winning clan to be the one to post).

This is Ice's baby though, so I'll butt out and leave him to administer it as he sees fit. If he'd like help though in promoting the idea of all clans posting results here then I can help with some suggestions.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:37 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:"If a job's worth doing it's worth doing well"

Both Josko and Ice are right in respect of wanting to record the results in proper chronological order, so yeah....a couple of weeks out can make a difference. As Ice says it can come down to a single point here or there. It may not seem like much, but when this ladder is the basis on which seedings are done for Clan League and Conqueror's Cup it can have a huge impact as it could put a clan either in a different division (league) or other half of the draw (cup).

The best solution is if the responsibility is placed on the warring clans to post their results here (we can't expect TO's to do it, nor for them to be prompt when moving a challenge to 'Completed'). So if every clan head is given implicit instructions to post clan vs clan results in this thread they will only have themselves to blame if they're not moving up the ladder (obviously I'd expect the winning clan to be the one to post).

This is Ice's baby though, so I'll butt out and leave him to administer it as he sees fit. If he'd like help though in promoting the idea of all clans posting results here then I can help with some suggestions.


Thanks for the feedback CoF. Essentially, as the organizers are the ones who are running the event I'm leaving it up to them to decide how to gather and give me the data. If they want to take it upon themselves, that's fine. If they want to require clans to do it, and create some sort of system that holds them responsible to do so, thats fine as well. I'll accept the data from anyone as long as its complete, and accurate.

By holding the organizers responisble, one of three things will occur. Either 1) the organizers will produce a way to get the data and continue, or 2) organizers will quit and those who are willing to do the work will tkae their place, or 3) the event will continue, but results not included in the official ranking system and they will have to let people know at sign up that it wont be included (which may or may not affect the number of clans signing up for the event).

Either way, its hard for me to hold a dozen (or more) individual clan leaders responsible, so i will keep it at the organizer level who can delegate the duty as they see fit.

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:42 pm

OK mate, fair comment. There are certainly fewer organizers to be held accountable than there are clans, but I just wonder if they mind that onus of responsibility? Clans (esp clan heads) tend to remain stable, whereas organizers change and new ones may not be aware of the requirement to post data promptly (or at all).
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:26 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:OK mate, fair comment. There are certainly fewer organizers to be held accountable than there are clans, but I just wonder if they mind that onus of responsibility? Clans (esp clan heads) tend to remain stable, whereas organizers change and new ones may not be aware of the requirement to post data promptly (or at all).


Which is where clans involved will need to ensure the organizer of event(s) are aware, and either have them do it or organize something for the event. If the organizer clearly shows no interest in doing so, its something for clans to think about when signing up for it.

Essentially, its a large task and someone (specific person) needs to be responsible, not 1-3 dozen clan leaders participating in an event that already have a lot of prep work etc on their plate for clan leagues. Organizers dont have THAT much to run an event, the least they can do is organize a group of people to track the data if they dont want to themselves.

If its kept up with from the very beginning, it really wont be that much work for the organizer. Its only coming in at the end trying to gather ALL the data all at once that becomes burdensome. I dont think its unreasonable to expect an organizer to make sure they provide minimal information (i'm not asking for a ton of info, but the CD's dont treat them like normal wars so its not provided by CD's like other wars are)

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-01-13]

Postby IcePack on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:30 pm

Ok working on this now. Things to be included this issue:

RL2 Results
CL4 Div 4 Final (FOED TNC)
CL4 Div 1 Final (KORT AOC)
AOC EMP
TOFU PACK
FALL GG
LEG DBC
TFFS FOED

And a few minor corrections and date syncing with CD dates. IGNI going social. Its late, so the changing of war from oldest to newest to newest to oldest will occur when im more awake :)

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Last edited by IcePack on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:33 pm

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:25 am

Great job Ice, thank you.

The significance of this TOFU/KORT challenge in the Conqueror's Cup cannot be overstated. Winner takes all!
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby jetsetwilly on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:44 am

So the cup is 1st vs 2nd and 3rd vs 4th :)
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby John Deere on Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:47 am

LOL we went down by 2.... dont see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:10 am

John Deere wrote:LOL we went down by 2.... dont see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)


I guess your loss, in conjunction with the wins by 4th & 5th, makes the difference. Still damn close between the three of you.

Funny how it does happen to be the Top 4 ranked clans in the semis though. Don't think anyone would have predicted that.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby benga on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:14 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:
John Deere wrote:LOL we went down by 2.... dont see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)


I guess your loss, in conjunction with the wins by 4th & 5th, makes the difference. Still damn close between the three of you.

Funny how it does happen to be the Top 4 ranked clans in the semis though. Don't think anyone would have predicted that.


Well if you take a good look at results this season then it's is:)

They all went far in CL and CC, so it's kind off expected.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby hyposquasher on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:42 am

benga wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:
John Deere wrote:LOL we went down by 2.... dont see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)


I guess your loss, in conjunction with the wins by 4th & 5th, makes the difference. Still damn close between the three of you.

Funny how it does happen to be the Top 4 ranked clans in the semis though. Don't think anyone would have predicted that.


Well if you take a good look at results this season then it's is:)

They all went far in CL and CC, so it's kind off expected.


Based on the latest rankings, the top 8 in CL4 (those that advanced to Phase 2) were ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 9, with number 8 being the Fallen who I don't think existed at the time that CL started.

Based on the latest rankings, the 4 semifinalists in CC3 are ranked 1, 2, 3, 4.

That makes he F400 system pretty impressive, if you ask me.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby chapcrap on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:57 am

hyposquasher wrote:Based on the latest rankings, the top 8 in CL4 (those that advanced to Phase 2) were ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 9, with number 8 being the Fallen who I don't think existed at the time that CL started.

Based on the latest rankings, the 4 semifinalists in CC3 are ranked 1, 2, 3, 4.

That makes he F400 system pretty impressive, if you ask me.

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:21 am

John Deere wrote:LOL we went down by 2.... dont see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)


Only six points from 4th, like others said w your loss and their wins it combined to upset the rankings. They did beat TSM and EMP to get there.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby josko.ri on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:29 am

RET is on graph on 15th place but not in table, even not among non ranked clans.

Now it is the third time KORT is facing #2 clan while being placed #1. First 2 times it ended 37/23 v EMP and 35/25 v TSM. There can be also added 33/27 v THOTA but that was KORT #3 v THOTA #1 so was not really top 2 clans at the time.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby grifftron on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:30 am

AFOS & AOC are both top clans, and have been in the clan world for years now. They deserve those spots. I still believe in this system, its the best we got.

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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:59 am

Thanks for catching josko I'll correct the graph tonight
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:20 am

but that was KORT #3 v THOTA #1 so was not really top 2 clans at the time


It would have been TOFU #2 vs THOTA #1 had our victory over you stood and a 21 game forfeit not been imposed.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Masli on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:03 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:
but that was KORT #3 v THOTA #1 so was not really top 2 clans at the time


It would have been TOFU #2 vs THOTA #1 had our victory over you stood and a 21 game forfeit not been imposed.


=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Arama86n on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:54 pm

John Deere wrote:LOL we went down by 2.... don't see that being realistic but we will prove this whole chart wrong this year ;)


Well, a ranking system can really only be a subjective and limited view, trying to be as objective as possible. Any given week you have players leaving and joining clans all over CC, not to mention players IRL situations changing, going on vacation, getting a new job, a new girlfriend or even a baby...
To make an extreme example, at some point during the last month perhaps the Pack was the strongest clan on CC, or RL circumstances for your players took another turn and you couldn't even have beaten any top ten clan that week, we'll never know.

The point ofc, is that this system is fantastic, but don't stare yourself blind at it. It gives us a very accurate general view of the clan world, but it can't tell you if you or Empire or Aoc are 3rd or 4th or whatever. That certainly changes from month to month, perhaps even week to week, where as the system only updates with incoming war results. The world is ever-changing.

I beleive I read somewhere that the pack had a fair few of it's core less active lately (might be confusing with another clan, but nvm this is all just an example). When a Pack member ponders over how good his clan is he naturally thinks in terms of when everyone is present and active. This though is that shadow world of potential, how good the clan could be on that perfect day. How often does that coincide with reality for any of us though? When you beat that opponent that only relates to the time-frame in question, you were stronger than them at that time, that either of you were at your peak is unlikely, or even impossible depending on how you wish to define it.

And this is where the brilliance of such a ranking system comes into play. It deals with cold hard facts, over the coarse of two years how often have a clans members been active, contributing and "at their best", how many percent of the clan have been living up to their potential over this time period and translating that into actual triumph on the field of battle. It's probably the closest we'll get to any "truth", and a damn sight better than what our ego's believe about our clans.

We can never really know who is the 3rd or 4th best clan at the time of this post, and can only speculate as to our potential if all our members could be at their peak at once. But the system can attempt to show us some essence of objectivity over a period of time.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby niMic on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:17 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:
but that was KORT #3 v THOTA #1 so was not really top 2 clans at the time


It would have been TOFU #2 vs THOTA #1 had our victory over you stood and a 21 game forfeit not been imposed.


It wasn't, though. And then we went on to win the Cup.

Funny how things work out sometimes O:)
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Leehar on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:55 pm

I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:58 pm

Leehar wrote:I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.


Not necessarily true, had OSA made it into final 4 - their current rank of 14 (?) would improve but not very likely to top 4 position. It just do happened that the upper ranked clans were the ones who made it thru and some made minor improvements to their ranking which also matched the final 4 in the event.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby Leehar on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:13 pm

IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.


Not necessarily true, had OSA made it into final 4 - their current rank of 14 (?) would improve but not very likely to top 4 position. It just do happened that the upper ranked clans were the ones who made it thru and some made minor improvements to their ranking which also matched the final 4 in the event.

It's worth taking a gander at. Probably the main issue against it would be the sheer weight of clan wars they have, but I'd hazard that I win over the #1 ranked clan could be worth as much as 1600 points to them, which if it doesn't take them to the top 4, should propel them mightily close!
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Re: F400 Ranking [Updated 01-15-13]

Postby IcePack on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Leehar wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Leehar wrote:I'm not precisely certain on the term, but the ranking is pretty much self-validating.

IE, it's not so much that because they are top 4 clans in the F400 that they are in CC3 semi-finals, but because they are in the Semi's that they're the top 4 clan in the F400.
So essentially a very good objective assessment that uses the results to prove that the clans should be ranked where you assume them to be by virtue of them making it so far in CC's premier clan competition.


Not necessarily true, had OSA made it into final 4 - their current rank of 14 (?) would improve but not very likely to top 4 position. It just do happened that the upper ranked clans were the ones who made it thru and some made minor improvements to their ranking which also matched the final 4 in the event.

It's worth taking a gander at. Probably the main issue against it would be the sheer weight of clan wars they have, but I'd hazard that I win over the #1 ranked clan could be worth as much as 1600 points to them, which if it doesn't take them to the top 4, should propel them mightily close!


No need for guess work. But you are talking a rather large point difference (approx 300 points!) which is incredibly large, and wont ever be made up in one war.

If war never took place
KORT 1412 (1st)
OSA 1082 (14th)

KORT Win 32-29
KORT 1397 (1st)
OSA 1088 (14th)

Theoretical if OSA won 31-30
KORT 1343 (2nd)
OSA 1115 (12th almost 11th)
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