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Re: Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V20 BETA LIVE

Postby Bruceswar on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:52 am

First time playing this map. I will say this. Looks to be a very interesting map. I am fan of 1 vs 1 games and 18 spots to start gives a pretty big advantage to those who go first. Example.. Yes I had killer dice, but the point of 6 vs 5 or 4 to drop stands. Maybe 1 more neutral would fix this?

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After me playing 1 turn..

Bruceswar 4.9 1 24 59 8
shaneback 4.8 0 12 36 4

I am 23 men up and 8 deployments up.
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Re: Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V20 BETA LIVE

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Bruceswar wrote:First time playing this map. I will say this. Looks to be a very interesting map. I am fan of 1 vs 1 games and 18 spots to start gives a pretty big advantage to those who go first. Example.. Yes I had killer dice, but the point of 6 vs 5 or 4 to drop stands. Maybe 1 more neutral would fix this?

Game 12204881

After me playing 1 turn..

Bruceswar 4.9 1 24 59 8
shaneback 4.8 0 12 36 4

I am 23 men up and 8 deployments up.


This appears to be a result of the changed XML posted on the 9th, in which one of the Tiki's was coded neutral. This will have to be addressed cairns. Are any other regions other than the Tiki's coded as neutrals? I haven't counted the regions myself, but based on the first post, there are 73 starting regions and 16 neutrals, leaving 57 regions to be distributed, which would give each player 19 regions in 1v1. Ideally, you put it down to 53 starting regions so 1v1 will start with 17 and 4 player games will start with 13, but 57 is a decent enough number (though not perfect, since dropping 6 will make it easier to take 3 or more regions from your opponent on the first turn).
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Re: Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V20 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:56 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:First time playing this map. I will say this. Looks to be a very interesting map. I am fan of 1 vs 1 games and 18 spots to start gives a pretty big advantage to those who go first. Example.. Yes I had killer dice, but the point of 6 vs 5 or 4 to drop stands. Maybe 1 more neutral would fix this?

Game 12204881

After me playing 1 turn..

Bruceswar 4.9 1 24 59 8
shaneback 4.8 0 12 36 4

I am 23 men up and 8 deployments up.


This appears to be a result of the changed XML posted on the 9th, in which one of the Tiki's was coded neutral. This will have to be addressed cairns. Are any other regions other than the Tiki's coded as neutrals?

no, there are only 16 neutrals on tikis.

I haven't counted the regions myself, but based on the first post, there are 73 starting regions and 16 neutrals, leaving 57 regions to be distributed, which would give each player 19 regions in 1v1. Ideally, you put it down to 53 starting regions so 1v1 will start with 17 and 4 player games will start with 13, but 57 is a decent enough number (though not perfect, since dropping 6 will make it easier to take 3 or more regions from your opponent on the first turn).


There are 72 terts (FP now changed)...my bad :oops:
less 16 neutrals = 56 for distribution...not so good....since that means for 2P/3P 18 start positions = 6 armies on the drop, which is what everyone gets at present.

Rather than code another 3 neutrals (which is the number required to make a decent drop number), why not make the divisor 4 (i have new graphics and xml centering to do anyway).

That would make 2P/3P armies 4 on start. This would reduce the ability to take so many terts on 1st go and even up the playing field a bit.

Code: Select all
    <reinforcements>
       <reinforcement>
          <lower>1</lower>
          <upper>72</upper>
          <divisor>4</divisor>
       </reinforcement>
    </reinforcements>
Last edited by cairnswk on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V20 BETA LIVE

Postby thehippo8 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:08 pm

That sounds like a clever/good suggestion!
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Re: Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V20 BETA LIVE

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:18 pm

That would solve the problem as well.
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Re: Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V20 BETA LIVE

Postby Leehar on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:38 am

agree with the fix for 2p
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Re: Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V20 BETA LIVE

Postby ManBungalow on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:05 pm

Is the Tiki "+1 bonus when held" an autodeploy?
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Re: Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V20 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:30 pm

ManBungalow wrote:Is the Tiki "+1 bonus when held" an autodeploy?

yes MB, there's a fix coming for that shortly. :)
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Re: New Zealand [8.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:13 pm

Attached is the xml file with the new divisor of 4 in it.
The new xml file must be uploaded because it has new centering in it.

Small
Click image to enlarge.
image

Large
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image


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... 1S_xml.png
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... 1L_xml.png

XML: http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/12/21/3378809/06_NZ.xml
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06_NZ.xml
(28.8 KiB) Downloaded 636 times
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby Leehar on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:35 pm

It's still somewhat tough to tell which terr. exactly have the planes. Gisborne (and perhaps Auckland) are the best because they're right next to the actual troops (which you click on for clickable maps etc)

Perhaps put mini-airports inside the actual territories, or some other identifier like you have with the tiki's?
Or I see now that the planes are alongside the territory names, so perhaps make that explicitly stated, since sometimes I thought ashburton or mt. taranaki had a plane etc

Also, is there anyway to make mt. cook & twizei seem more seperated? the curving of the river right near the mountain made it seem they were connected.
In that same vein, is it possible to say that the rivers have Bridges?
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:04 pm

Leehar wrote:It's still somewhat tough to tell which terr. exactly have the planes. Gisborne (and perhaps Auckland) are the best because they're right next to the actual troops (which you click on for clickable maps etc)

Perhaps put mini-airports inside the actual territories, or some other identifier like you have with the tiki's?
Or I see now that the planes are alongside the territory names, so perhaps make that explicitly stated, since sometimes I thought ashburton or mt. taranaki had a plane etc

Also, is there anyway to make mt. cook & twizei seem more seperated? the curving of the river right near the mountain made it seem they were connected.
In that same vein, is it possible to say that the rivers have Bridges?


"Where are mine eyes".
We'll see if anyone else has these problems. :)
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby Oneyed on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:14 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Leehar wrote:It's still somewhat tough to tell which terr. exactly have the planes. Gisborne (and perhaps Auckland) are the best because they're right next to the actual troops (which you click on for clickable maps etc)

Perhaps put mini-airports inside the actual territories, or some other identifier like you have with the tiki's?
Or I see now that the planes are alongside the territory names, so perhaps make that explicitly stated, since sometimes I thought ashburton or mt. taranaki had a plane etc

Also, is there anyway to make mt. cook & twizei seem more seperated? the curving of the river right near the mountain made it seem they were connected.
In that same vein, is it possible to say that the rivers have Bridges?


"Where are mine eyes".
We'll see if anyone else has these problems. :)


for me is question about planes clear. maybe because IĀ“ve looked at the map more often...
...but cairn for those who have this problem you could do that frame around names will be longer and planes will be in frame with names...

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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:13 pm

The updated images and xml have been sent. ;)

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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:21 pm

Oneyed wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Leehar wrote:It's still somewhat tough to tell which terr. exactly have the planes. Gisborne (and perhaps Auckland) are the best because they're right next to the actual troops (which you click on for clickable maps etc)

Perhaps put mini-airports inside the actual territories, or some other identifier like you have with the tiki's?
Or I see now that the planes are alongside the territory names, so perhaps make that explicitly stated, since sometimes I thought ashburton or mt. taranaki had a plane etc

Also, is there anyway to make mt. cook & twizei seem more seperated? the curving of the river right near the mountain made it seem they were connected.
In that same vein, is it possible to say that the rivers have Bridges?


"Where are mine eyes".
We'll see if anyone else has these problems. :)


for me is question about planes clear. maybe because IĀ“ve looked at the map more often...
...but cairn for those who have this problem you could do that frame around names will be longer and planes will be in frame with names...
Oneyed

Yes i could do that, and planes would have to be smaller ti fit inside the frame of name and to me spoil the look of the map.
I think Oneyed, that if some players simply take the time to examine the map, they will see that most of the planes sit at the end of the name frames, and that had they applied that association to Mt Taranaki or Ashburton they see exactly where the planes were. :)
Last edited by cairnswk on Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:22 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:The updated images and xml have been sent. ;)

Nobodies

thanks tnb80 :)
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby Oneyed on Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:27 pm

cairnswk wrote:I think Oneyed, that if some players simply take the time to examine the map, they will see that most of the names sit at the end of the name frames, and that had they applied that association to Mt Taranaki or Ashburton they see exactly where the planes were. :)


me too :) ...but you know people...

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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby ender516 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:21 pm

The word "Mountains" is misspelled "Moutains" in the legend. (I am getting a feeling of dƩjƠ vu. Did I mention this here before, or is it just a common mistake that I have encountered elsewhere?)
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:49 pm

ender516 wrote:The word "Mountains" is misspelled "Moutains" in the legend. (I am getting a feeling of dƩjƠ vu. Did I mention this here before, or is it just a common mistake that I have encountered elsewhere?)

no, i think you might have mentioned it, and i am almost certain i fixed it, but no...somehow it hasn't translated. :oops: Bugger.
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby thehippo8 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:34 am

Ah that most kiwi of expressions "bugger" - a reference to Footrot Flats and a series of Toyota adds based on the dog!

ANyway, as to the planes - the only other solution I can think is to bold the territory border (or even shade the whole territory) so it stands out?
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:40 am

thehippo8 wrote:Ah that most kiwi of expressions "bugger" - a reference to Footrot Flats and a series of Toyota adds based on the dog!

ANyway, as to the planes - the only other solution I can think is to bold the territory border (or even shade the whole territory) so it stands out?


you know, i don't think the kiwis hold the license on "bugger"...my father taught it to me when i was young and he is not kiwi.

anyways. appreciate your suggestion, but i am now reluctant to improve the planes image any at all.
my reason is this, and i don't care if i argue with the foundry chiefs...very few people bothered to come in and comment on this map while it was in production, and certainly the instigator of this request was not one of them.
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby ender516 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:04 am

cairnswk wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:Ah that most kiwi of expressions "bugger" - a reference to Footrot Flats and a series of Toyota adds based on the dog!

ANyway, as to the planes - the only other solution I can think is to bold the territory border (or even shade the whole territory) so it stands out?


you know, i don't think the kiwis hold the license on "bugger"...my father taught it to me when i was young and he is not kiwi.

anyways. appreciate your suggestion, but i am now reluctant to improve the planes image any at all.
my reason is this, and i don't care if i argue with the foundry chiefs...very few people bothered to come in and comment on this map while it was in production, and certainly the instigator of this request was not one of them.

You have my partial support, cairnswk. I think that the planes flying into the territory names is quite clear enough. That said, the purpose of the Beta phase of development is to expose the map to the whole community and check for flaws. You cannot write off comments at this point just because the commentator has not frequented the Foundry.
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby Leehar on Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:04 am

ender516 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:Ah that most kiwi of expressions "bugger" - a reference to Footrot Flats and a series of Toyota adds based on the dog!

ANyway, as to the planes - the only other solution I can think is to bold the territory border (or even shade the whole territory) so it stands out?


you know, i don't think the kiwis hold the license on "bugger"...my father taught it to me when i was young and he is not kiwi.

anyways. appreciate your suggestion, but i am now reluctant to improve the planes image any at all.
my reason is this, and i don't care if i argue with the foundry chiefs...very few people bothered to come in and comment on this map while it was in production, and certainly the instigator of this request was not one of them.

You have my partial support, cairnswk. I think that the planes flying into the territory names is quite clear enough. That said, the purpose of the Beta phase of development is to expose the map to the whole community and check for flaws. You cannot write off comments at this point just because the commentator has not frequented the Foundry.


I mentioned the problems I had, if you prefer these things to be learned by trial & error, and my comments to be unconstructive than so be it.
I did try to make allowances that you may find my comment distasteful, so tried to mention other possible additions like adding a mention of bridges to the legend, but If I'm going to be tarred with a 'useless' brush I guess I can butt my head out of where it's not wanted.

I recognise this comment may seem a bit butthurt, and that I should be bigger than to take offense, but meh, it's not worth it to try be more neutral, just as cairns is honest enough to say what he feels as well (which I can only applaud)

Perhaps I'm alone in not looking at my maps so closely as to not stumble on these small things, and if everyone else spends the time to not make my silly mistakes than I agree there's probably no good that I'm doing here.

I did pop in here because I thought cairns interview and the foundry section in the dispatch were nice enough to make it worthwhile mentioning these things, so I'll probably stick around but will try avoid raising hackles in the future :)

And I completely acknowledge that I mentioned a very minor issue, and I probably would be like others and just not mention it all because it's no longer an issue once I've learned from my mistake. I just thought maybe it was worth leaving some feedback...
Heck even a response from cairns like he had in the newsletter "Thank you but No" would have made me feel better than "You're not a foundry regular so your mentions aren't worth the salt on my shoe"

If this was a place I frequented, I'd be willing to actually go to the effort of defend my views, but since as it was so eloquently stated that I don't bother to come here anyway, it's not worth the effort to stick to my guns?
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:48 am

ender516 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:Ah that most kiwi of expressions "bugger" - a reference to Footrot Flats and a series of Toyota adds based on the dog!

ANyway, as to the planes - the only other solution I can think is to bold the territory border (or even shade the whole territory) so it stands out?


you know, i don't think the kiwis hold the license on "bugger"...my father taught it to me when i was young and he is not kiwi.

anyways. appreciate your suggestion, but i am now reluctant to improve the planes image any at all.
my reason is this, and i don't care if i argue with the foundry chiefs...very few people bothered to come in and comment on this map while it was in production, and certainly the instigator of this request was not one of them.

You have my partial support, cairnswk. I think that the planes flying into the territory names is quite clear enough. That said, the purpose of the Beta phase of development is to expose the map to the whole community and check for flaws. You cannot write off comments at this point just because the commentator has not frequented the Foundry.


ender516. not wanting to put anyone off side, you have been around long enough to know that my pet peeve is community leaving it until the last minute (after graphics stamp) to come into the foundry and make suggestions on imporvements for the maps when the map sits around in the foundry without comments for weeks on end. I always thought that someone who could devote so much time to creating tournies, could at least also give the foundry sometime....but no this appears to not have been the case.

I don't consider that the whole community has yet expressed its displeasure for the planes, in fact only 1 has and others have backed this up with alternatives. Having said that i did not say i wouldn't do the changes, but am reluctant to do them....bit of a difference over semantics....but they will have to wait until another big update because in extending the frames to place around the planes is going to create a little havoc on some areas and these are major changes for both maps in moving things around.

I still consider that such large changes should have been done in graphics stage, but no, no-one bothered to visit except thehippo8 and a few other committed people.
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:46 pm

Leehar wrote:....
I mentioned the problems I had, if you prefer these things to be learned by trial & error, and my comments to be unconstructive than so be it.
I did try to make allowances that you may find my comment distasteful, so tried to mention other possible additions like adding a mention of bridges to the legend, but If I'm going to be tarred with a 'useless' brush I guess I can butt my head out of where it's not wanted.


Leehar. i have no problems im making changes to maps of mine...if these major graphcis changes are made predominantly when they are supposed to be made (in my mind) while the map is in graphics stage in the main foundry, not when it is in BETA. BETA to me is for absolute minor tweaks. I don't consider your suggestions to be minor tweaks nor indeed useless and i don't consider that you need to "butt" out of here...but for someone who spends all their time organising tournies (which you have my repesect for)...
i' d like you to consider the fact this map sat for weeks in the foundry and no-body bothered to visit and comment...yourself included and that also goes for the requested changes on the Salem map. Had you bothered to visit and suggest at that stage you might have found me most cooperative.

i don't consider your comments to be unconstructive, but most untimely and i have been fighting this timeliness challenge since my first map in 2007 when Andy Dufresne used to come in late with suggestions. Seems nothing changes, but gets moved from player to player.

So please visit us to give your feedback (1. preferably while a map is in production and 2. afterwards when the maps are in Beta and you have played them a while).

you will notice that i did not cut off the Beta stage in my comments, but did say "preferably while a map is in production"


I recognise this comment may seem a bit butthurt, and that I should be bigger than to take offense, but meh, it's not worth it to try be more neutral, just as cairns is honest enough to say what he feels as well (which I can only applaud)

Leehar, it doesn't hurt at all, but rather pisses me off due to untimeliness of these comments and since you've been around since 2009 you really should perhaps know better.
I wouldn't want to come into the Tournies and ask for you to include me in one when i hadn't bothered to sign up before closure or after one had started.
Perhaps if you want your suggestions to be included in changes to maps, then don't leave it until the last minute... :idea:

Perhaps I'm alone in not looking at my maps so closely as to not stumble on these small things, and if everyone else spends the time to not make my silly mistakes than I agree there's probably no good that I'm doing here.
I did pop in here because I thought cairns interview and the foundry section in the dispatch were nice enough to make it worthwhile mentioning these things, so I'll probably stick around but will try avoid raising hackles in the future :)

Oh, you are doing some good...i would prefer you to stick around but be more proactive in giving your requests like these major ones in a more timely manner.

And I completely acknowledge that I mentioned a very minor issue, and I probably would be like others and just not mention it all because it's no longer an issue once I've learned from my mistake. I just thought maybe it was worth leaving some feedback...
Heck even a response from cairns like he had in the newsletter "Thank you but No" would have made me feel better than "You're not a foundry regular so your mentions aren't worth the salt on my shoe"
If this was a place I frequented, I'd be willing to actually go to the effort of defend my views, but since as it was so eloquently stated that I don't bother to come here anyway, it's not worth the effort to stick to my guns?

Mmm, salt on my shoes...seems once again i've left a bitter taste...and it is not because you are not a foundry regular that i made these comments...perhaps you'd take the time to add your comments to a map when the map is sitting around for weeks on end.
As a tournie organiser who has accomplished over 30 and several general achievements, with a BAccSci (congrats on that) i would have thought you might have been a bit more organised in your timeliness. ;)
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Re: Re: New Zealand [20.1.13] V21 BETA LIVE

Postby Leehar on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:48 pm

cairnswk wrote:I always thought that someone who could devote so much time to creating tournies, could at least also give the foundry sometime....but no this appears to not have been the case.

if that was at me, the only tournies I've ever run, was when official teamcc ones needed assistance.

I doubt the issue would have come up in graphics either, I only noticed it after I dropped on a territory using clickies and realised it wasn't actually where the plane was.
All I do is mostly based upon playing the game, I admit to the sin of rarely looking at the map beyond how it affects gameplay, so I would be of no use looking at a map if I can't and offering input if I can't play it.

I was actually quite active in the Beta stage of the foundry for a few weeks a year or so ago, but decided it just wasn't worth the effort after I got poo-pooed again :/
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