In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

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In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:35 pm

I am not a dice complainer. However, I get sick and tired of the abuse these individuals have to endure when they exercise their right to protest. I almost liken dice complainers to the poor smokers standing on the stoop in -20 degree weather. I'm suggesting that, like smokers, dice complainers are just victims of circumstance.
Another thing that bothers me about dice complainer antagonists is that they so predictably post said dice complainer's dice stats as if this is undeniable proof that they are full of shit. This just isn't so and to claim otherwise is just as shortsighted as the antagonists are accusing the complainers to be.

Fact one: Simply rolling average dice does not ensure average game evenness

When you roll dice, the coincidence of good rolls at those times when you most need them is the key to success. If one rolls disgusting puke shit dice for the first half of a game and sparkling beatiful dice the second half, one's rolls come out average but the game will most certainly be a loss. Therefore timing of one's dice is arguably many times more important than one's average. This is not a new concept yet people continue to post the complainer's average dice as evidence that they are basically insane. If there were something crooked going on, the masterminds wouldn't be so stupid as to just give a player awful dice all the time. That would be far too traceable.

Fact two: The randomness of atmospheric noise, while generally accepted, is not an undeniable truth AKA The Cat is Mweauwing Theory

Who the hell really knows where this atmospheric noise is taken from specifically? Could it be from a rooftop where on the street someone starts their car at exactly 2:30AM every morning, creating a string of sixes that causes anyone who takes their turn at the corresponding moments to have their troops fight, however temporarily, as though they were high on PCP?

Fact three: Conspirocies do exist.

Just because the odds of rds watching my game and holding down a button that suppresses my dice rolls to 3 or less are very slim doesn't mean it's not possible. Do you trust the government implicitly? If not, why do you trust conquer club whose curtain is far more heavy?

So I beg you, put yourself in the dice complainer's shoes. These people seem sane enough in their rants as you would expect someone whose dice fail, time after time, just when they need them. And even if they are just paranoid, irrational, or simply plum crazy, what good does ridicule do in cases such as those?
Are you a gambling person? Because in the 1 in 1000 chance that the dice complainers are actually onto some real phenomenon, those who were sooo extremely confident that the dice were definitely and absolutely random will look infinitely more ridiculous than the complainers acting from the duress of frustration. Until there is a dice tracking system advanced enough to determine when a player gets dice when he/she needs them, I suggest any dice complainer antagonists keep a lid on their patronizing tones.
Last edited by Funkyterrance on Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers

Postby Arama86n on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:45 pm

What you are suggesting in the first part of your post is even more far-fetched than the average dice-complainer will come up with.It seems that you are suggesting that some master-programmer has rigged CC in such a sophisticated manner as to be able to read the game and localize the key point in the game when player A needs good dice, and then hack the game changing his dice for the worse during that period of the game/ that turn. And this either without the administrators knowledge, or with their consent?

The obvious questions here is, why? to what end? how is that good for business?

I beleive in free speech, thus if some one wants to complain about the dice, that is their right. But if for every ten dice-bitching threads out there, if I want to post a counter-argument 1/10th (more like 1/100th) of the time someone makes a thread about the dice, I beleive I should have that right too.
There are hundreds of threads about bad dice. Start a user-group together and sit and bitch about it all day long, the rest of us don't want to hear it. And if we have to hear it, we'll occasionally give some feed-back. Live with it :)

For the record, I agree with you about the dice stats. It says nothing about WHEN the player gets said good dice. And this in my opinion is the only upside to having a larger game-count. If you have 4 games running you can easily get bad dice in all of them and be left with a very foul taste in your mouth. If you have 40 games running, you'll always get a mixture of good and bad dice when you're taking 15 turns in a row. But then we get into psychology, selective memory etc...
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:06 pm

Arama86n wrote:What you are suggesting in the first part of your post is even more far-fetched than the average dice-complainer will come up with.It seems that you are suggesting that some master-programmer has rigged CC in such a sophisticated manner as to be able to read the game and localize the key point in the game when player A needs good dice, and then hack the game changing his dice for the worse during that period of the game/ that turn. And this either without the administrators knowledge, or with their consent?


If you take the percentage of players who actually take the time to start dice complaining threads it's actually pretty small. Could not these players be the playthings of some unknown torturer? We have had officials here in the past who were eventually deemed unstable and unfit for their positions. These individuals were able to slip through the cracks for some time, why couldn't that happen in regard to dice. Again, it's a slim chance but not impossible.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:19 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Just because the odds of rds watching my game and holding down a button that suppresses my dice rolls to 3 or less are very slim doesn't mean it's not possible.


The odds aren't slim. rds specifically outsourced his moderating jobs to China so that he could spend more time doing that.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby frankiebee on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:23 pm

Why dice complainers should not post on the forums:

Fact 1
Complaining on the forums will not help improve your dice.

Let's face every fact you gave. An even dice distribution doesn't mean an even game, I totally agree with that.
Let's assume that you're keep getting screwed because your just really unlucky. Well, that sucks, but bitching about the dice on the forums is not going to help you a bit. If you accept that you're just unlucky and the dice is random, you will get a luck streak soon enough, just try to remember all that good dice for once.
Let's assume you keep getting screwed because other people are taking advantage by the non random nummers from the atmospheric noise because they only play when a cat is mweauwing... uuhm, again, bitching on the forums doesn't help you a bit. I would suggest you just start playing on the exact same time as they do, so you to can benefit from the killer cat super dice.
And if there is some big conspiracy by the CC admins, bitching in the forum will probably only make it worse.

Oh yeah and:
Fact 2
Complaining on the forums about dice will only result in people thinking you're really really not cool.

So just stop.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Army of GOD on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:09 pm

lock this thread. FT is just a troll trying to bait me into making fun of his dreadfully loathsome posts.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:45 pm

Interesting theories boys but I don't buy either of them and I'll tell you why:

Frankie- If no one ever complained about equal rights, there would still be color specific water fountains. If no one ever came out and protested the mention of pubic hairs in coca-colas we would have a hell of a lot more sexual harassment in the workplace. My point is that if no one speaks up about these inequalities nothing will ever get thoroughly investigated, much less solved.

AoG- You're sounding frighteningly similar to a dice complainer. Shall I fetch the noose?
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:02 am

frankiebee wrote:Why dice complainers should not post on the forums:

Fact 1
Complaining on the forums will not help improve your dice.

On the contrary, every time I complain about my dice in the forum they show genuine signs of remorse and contrition, and they begin to behave. At least for a little while. Have to be careful not to overuse the technique, though. I find the optimum is one outburst every two weeks. After that they tend to behave themselves and roll properly for at least the next forty rolls.

If I try to blast them more often, say twice in two weeks, I'm no further ahead. They will roll well for only about twenty rolls per complaint. If I up the frequency even more, for instance to three complaints in a fortnight, the returns start to really diminish and I often get only five or six decent rolls out of them. (Still, that's often enough to turn the tide against HighlanderAttack on Arms Race!, which sends him into an apoplectic rage and is definitely worth the price of admission!)

Another thing I've found is that a dice complaint has to be genuine to be effective. If it's contrived, it will not work. Still, under the right circumstances a dice complaint can be a devastating tool.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby SaMejoHn on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:11 am

Why doesn't everyone just do what I do and talk it over with their therapist? But personally the more games I play the worse my dice. As far as the dice goes, my only complaint is the patterns/streak of misfortune. How can something advertised as random be consistently bad for a while and then consistently good for a while? That is the only part that gets to me :lol: . I read so much here about selective memory and all that great stuff. but I never forget the times my dice came through big time in clutch. In fact, if i didn't try to forget all the moments of bad dice i wouldnt even be on this site. but that's just me. so is that really as big a factor as others posit it to be?
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby chang50 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:01 am

As far as the dice goes, my only complaint is the patterns/streak of misfortune. How can something advertised as random be consistently bad for a while and then consistently good for a while? That is the only part that gets to me :lol: .


Unless I've totally misunderstood the concept isn't that exactly what randomness will produce,along with periods of average fortune?
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:39 am

chang50 wrote:As far as the dice goes, my only complaint is the patterns/streak of misfortune. How can something advertised as random be consistently bad for a while and then consistently good for a while? That is the only part that gets to me :lol: .


Unless I've totally misunderstood the concept isn't that exactly what randomness will produce,along with periods of average fortune?

Yes, and yes. You've misunderstood the concept. Random distributions will tend to show long "streaks" of good and bad.

http://sinepost.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/probability-and-people/
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby chang50 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:23 am

Dukasaur wrote:
chang50 wrote:As far as the dice goes, my only complaint is the patterns/streak of misfortune. How can something advertised as random be consistently bad for a while and then consistently good for a while? That is the only part that gets to me :lol: .


Unless I've totally misunderstood the concept isn't that exactly what randomness will produce,along with periods of average fortune?

Yes, and yes. You've misunderstood the concept. Random distributions will tend to show long "streaks" of good and bad.

http://sinepost.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/probability-and-people/



Not sure how that is different to what I wrote,unless I am mistaken in thinking there will be periods of average fortune among the long streaks of good and bad..
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby macbone on Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:48 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Just because the odds of rds watching my game and holding down a button that suppresses my dice rolls to 3 or less are very slim doesn't mean it's not possible.


The odds aren't slim. rds specifically outsourced his moderating jobs to China so that he could spend more time doing that.


I can personally vouch for this. The extra work is killing me. =)
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:59 am

chang50 wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
chang50 wrote:As far as the dice goes, my only complaint is the patterns/streak of misfortune. How can something advertised as random be consistently bad for a while and then consistently good for a while? That is the only part that gets to me :lol: .


Unless I've totally misunderstood the concept isn't that exactly what randomness will produce,along with periods of average fortune?

Yes, and yes. You've misunderstood the concept. Random distributions will tend to show long "streaks" of good and bad.

http://sinepost.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/probability-and-people/



Not sure how that is different to what I wrote,unless I am mistaken in thinking there will be periods of average fortune among the long streaks of good and bad..

Of course there will be periods of average as well as good and bad, yes.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:37 pm

SaMejoHn wrote:Why doesn't everyone just do what I do and talk it over with their therapist? But personally the more games I play the worse my dice. As far as the dice goes, my only complaint is the patterns/streak of misfortune. How can something advertised as random be consistently bad for a while and then consistently good for a while? That is the only part that gets to me :lol: . I read so much here about selective memory and all that great stuff. but I never forget the times my dice came through big time in clutch. In fact, if i didn't try to forget all the moments of bad dice i wouldnt even be on this site. but that's just me. so is that really as big a factor as others posit it to be?


Here we have an example of the classic long term dice victim. He has been berated so badly by his fellow players that he has actually started to believe he is to blame for his misfortune. How delicious this must be for his torturer, if he/she does indeed exist.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:56 pm

The thing about randomness is that it is defined by unpredictabilty. Let's assume there is an infinite, and random, stream of dice. In that infinite random stream, there is contained an infinite stream of 1s. So it is entirely possible to roll nothing but 1s for your entire life.

Proof: If the longest stream of 1s is only 564 1s long, then we know that the 565th roll is not a 1, and it is therefore not random.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:29 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:The thing about randomness is that it is defined by unpredictabilty. Let's assume there is an infinite, and random, stream of dice. In that infinite random stream, there is contained an infinite stream of 1s. So it is entirely possible to roll nothing but 1s for your entire life.

Proof: If the longest stream of 1s is only 564 1s long, then we know that the 565th roll is not a 1, and it is therefore not random.

Indeed, its' possible. But what's more likely: rolling 1's for the rest of your life in a random situation or the existence of a rigged or not-random system?
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:33 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:The thing about randomness is that it is defined by unpredictabilty. Let's assume there is an infinite, and random, stream of dice. In that infinite random stream, there is contained an infinite stream of 1s. So it is entirely possible to roll nothing but 1s for your entire life.

Proof: If the longest stream of 1s is only 564 1s long, then we know that the 565th roll is not a 1, and it is therefore not random.

Indeed, its' possible. But what's more likely: rolling 1's for the rest of your life in a random situation or the existence of a rigged or not-random system?


That's not an accurate description of the situation here. CC and its dice mechanism together are not random, in that one can control one's probability of winning a game by playing better--given the constraints of a random setting (e.g. the dice). In other words, although the dice are random, the player's decisions and capabilities are not random, so this is neither a "random situation" nor a "rigged or not-random system." Your dichotomy falls apart like the fortresses of so many ignoble kings.



On Dice Complainers: A Never Ending Trial of Self-Perceived Tribulations
When people condemn the system as 'rigged', many of them may be overlooking the fact that their strategy and their decisions were suboptimal. And, it seems that a large group of people are almost always more likely to blame one's environment (the 'rigged' dice system) instead of blaming oneself for poor decision-making. Of course, the blame they make might not be 100% on dice and 0% on one's decisions, but it seems that of that large group of dice complainers, they attribute too little blame on themselves. A further problem is their confirmation bias, which has been dealt with numerous times by the valid criticizers like natty dread.

Besides, it also psychologically rewarding to vent one's frustration while filtering out valid criticism in order to receive the desired sympathy from other dice complainers. Many dice complainers could be tapping themselves into this "positive" feedback loop with its negative unintended consequences.

Nonetheless, I look forward to the day when more and more people control for their cognitive bias, assess the situation from a more objective viewpoint, and consequentially make the necessary changes to improve themselves and others.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:01 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Indeed, its' possible. But what's more likely: rolling 1's for the rest of your life in a random situation or the existence of a rigged or not-random system?


That's not an accurate description of the situation here. CC and its dice mechanism together are not random, in that one can control one's probability of winning a game by playing better--given the constraints of a random setting (e.g. the dice). In other words, although the dice are random, the player's decisions and capabilities are not random, so this is neither a "random situation" nor a "rigged or not-random system." Your dichotomy falls apart like the fortresses of so many ignoble kings.

I was only following Yoshi's train of thought here and asking him a question comparing his extreme scenario to mine and I believe showing that his was certainly more far fetched and therefore useless as a counter. I never claimed it was a "this or that" scenario, however. It could very well be somewhere in-between.

BigBallinStalin wrote:On Dice Complainers: A Never Ending Trial of Self-Perceived Tribulations
When people condemn the system as 'rigged', many of them may be overlooking the fact that their strategy and their decisions were suboptimal. And, it seems that a large group of people are almost always more likely to blame one's environment (the 'rigged' dice system) instead of blaming oneself for poor decision-making. Of course, the blame they make might not be 100% on dice and 0% on one's decisions, but it seems that of that large group of dice complainers, they attribute too little blame on themselves. A further problem is their confirmation bias, which has been dealt with numerous times by the valid criticizers like natty dread.

Besides, it also psychologically rewarding to vent one's frustration while filtering out valid criticism in order to receive the desired sympathy from other dice complainers. Many dice complainers could be tapping themselves into this "positive" feedback loop with its negative unintended consequences.

Nonetheless, I look forward to the day when more and more people control for their cognitive bias, assess the situation from a more objective viewpoint, and consequentially make the necessary changes to improve themselves and others.


Again, while our ever so keen impressions of what is actually going on with regard to dice complainers may suggest to us otherwise, I am arguing reasonable doubt. I am arguing that supposition is not strong enough evidence to consistently treat dice complainers much like the lowliest mental patient and we the presiding doctors.
Last edited by Funkyterrance on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby SaMejoHn on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:55 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
SaMejoHn wrote:Why doesn't everyone just do what I do and talk it over with their therapist? But personally the more games I play the worse my dice. As far as the dice goes, my only complaint is the patterns/streak of misfortune. How can something advertised as random be consistently bad for a while and then consistently good for a while? That is the only part that gets to me :lol: . I read so much here about selective memory and all that great stuff. but I never forget the times my dice came through big time in clutch. In fact, if i didn't try to forget all the moments of bad dice i wouldnt even be on this site. but that's just me. so is that really as big a factor as others posit it to be?


Here we have an example of the classic long term dice victim. He has been berated so badly by his fellow players that he has actually started to believe he is to blame for his misfortune. How delicious this must be for his torturer, if he/she does indeed exist.
lol no one has berated me...this is first time im posting about dice. and only did so because i have more of a question than a complaint...(which was answered.) i dont approve of being labeled as "long term dice victim"
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 pm

SaMejoHn wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Here we have an example of the classic long term dice victim. He has been berated so badly by his fellow players that he has actually started to believe he is to blame for his misfortune. How delicious this must be for his torturer, if he/she does indeed exist.
lol no one has berated me...this is first time im posting about dice. and only did so because i have more of a question than a complaint...(which was answered.) i dont approve of being labeled as "long term dice victim"

It might be in your best interest to accept this title as being a major you would have to be a pretty decent player to overcome this affliction.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby SaMejoHn on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:09 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
SaMejoHn wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Here we have an example of the classic long term dice victim. He has been berated so badly by his fellow players that he has actually started to believe he is to blame for his misfortune. How delicious this must be for his torturer, if he/she does indeed exist.
lol no one has berated me...this is first time im posting about dice. and only did so because i have more of a question than a complaint...(which was answered.) i dont approve of being labeled as "long term dice victim"

It might be in your best interest to accept this title as being a major you would have to be a pretty decent player to overcome this affliction.
lol hmmm... you are right. EVERYDAY MY DICE IS SHIT. Everyone else has SOOO much better dice than me. Im here now because im afraid to take turns.. f*ck CC AND THE BULLSHIT DICE.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:22 pm

SaMejoHn wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:It might be in your best interest to accept this title as being a major you would have to be a pretty decent player to overcome this affliction.
lol hmmm... you are right. EVERYDAY MY DICE IS SHIT. Everyone else has SOOO much better dice than me. Im here now because im afraid to take turns.. f*ck CC AND THE BULLSHIT DICE.

Now you're talking.
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby generalhead on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:52 pm

I am pissed off about how random the dice are. This is bullshit. Some times I get good dice and sometimes I get bad dice.
What the f*ck is up with that?.....
Some times my opponents get good dice and sometimes they get bad dice? I don't understand this bullshit!....

Maybe I should have started a new thread for this?
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Re: In Defense of Dice Complainers: Reasonable Doubt

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:02 pm

generalhead wrote:I am pissed off about how random the dice are. This is bullshit. Some times I get good dice and sometimes I get bad dice.
What the f*ck is up with that?.....
Some times my opponents get good dice and sometimes they get bad dice? I don't understand this bullshit!....


I'll have to say I've never encountered a dice complainer complaining about the randomness itself. I'm afraid you are beyond my area of expertise, generalhead. I do however have the number of a guy across town who specializes in insanity pleas. ;)
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