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Is this cheating?

Postby inchul64 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:29 am

I was in the game below. I’m inchul64. I won the game but in the final round, my target - ABN – PFDR announces to everyone that the game is over unless someone nukes the region I’m going to finish him off from. This is a fog game. Because it was a fog game, no one could see that I was about to finish him off because otherwise they would want to do something about it. It was to my benefit that the fog allowed our battle to be hidden. My target tried to circumvent this by announcing to everyone that if they can take me out, they better, otherwise the game was over. Somehow this seems like cheating or would I be allowed during a fog game to announce to everyone all the locations of the players that I know and announce how many armies are in each one?

Speed Game 12261415
Game Type: Assassin
Spoils: Nuclear
Special Gameplay: Fog Trench

Game Chat
2013-01-23 20:01:10 - smac: geez all i see are craters......
2013-01-23 20:08:19 - ABN - PFDR: gg
2013-01-23 20:08:53 - : unless nuke hits clervaux
2013-01-23 20:10:40 - inchul64: gg
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Re: Is this cheating?

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:27 am

hummm dodgy. Actually saying that was pretty dumb if you were down to 1 region cause people would ve known that they had to avoid at all cost to nuke clervaux if they didn't want the game to be over for certain..
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Re: Is this cheating?

Postby darth emperor on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:02 am

inchul64 wrote:I was in the game below. I’m inchul64. I won the game but in the final round, my target - ABN – PFDR announces to everyone that the game is over unless someone nukes the region I’m going to finish him off from. This is a fog game. Because it was a fog game, no one could see that I was about to finish him off because otherwise they would want to do something about it. It was to my benefit that the fog allowed our battle to be hidden. My target tried to circumvent this by announcing to everyone that if they can take me out, they better, otherwise the game was over. Somehow this seems like cheating or would I be allowed during a fog game to announce to everyone all the locations of the players that I know and announce how many armies are in each one?

Speed Game Game 12261415
Game Type: Assassin
Spoils: Nuclear
Special Gameplay: Fog Trench

Game Chat
2013-01-23 20:01:10 - smac: geez all i see are craters......
2013-01-23 20:08:19 - ABN - PFDR: gg
2013-01-23 20:08:53 - : unless nuke hits clervaux
2013-01-23 20:10:40 - inchul64: gg

Link fixed

betiko wrote:hummm dodgy. Actually saying that was pretty dumb if you were down to 1 region cause people would ve known that they had to avoid at all cost to nuke clervaux if they didn't want the game to be over for certain..

Well, he had 2 regions not 1. And being trench its helpful. Anyway, he just said nuke clervaux or its game over. He didn't specify more (anyone could have been there).

And to reply the OP, is NOT cheating, in the sense that this is not against the rules. But to some is considered bad sportmanship to others is strategy. I believe is just a part of the fog game (you can't be sure if is lying), but if you feel is bad then I suggest you to FAMO (foe and move on).
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Re: Is this cheating?

Postby agentcom on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:42 am

The chat box is there for a reason. There is nothing against the rules about posting information to it that may or may not be seen by other players through the fog or that may or may not be true.

However, my policy has been to follow the guidelines of the person who created the game. If that person says that they don't like revealing fog info in chat, I generally do not do so. BUT ... I wouldn't hesitate to reveal such information if it made the difference between winning and losing as it did for your opponent, even if it went against the wishes of the creator of the game.

I'm sure everyone has their own way of dealing with things. And I know that some people get REALLY upset about revealing such info. That's their prerogative, but just keep in mind that it's not against the rules, even if you're one of the people who thinks it's in bad form.
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Re: Is this cheating?

Postby inchul64 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:19 pm

Ok. I'm willing to accept that what he did is not cheating. But if that's the case, why don't more players use the chat during an assassin/fog game to reveal other player's positions. One specific example would be if you know which player is coming for you. Then in order to get your assassin off our back, you would announce all their locations that you know in order to help the assassin coming after him/her. This is only useful in small maps like Doodle Earth and Luxembourg.

In my opinion, in a fog game, players shouldn't be allowed to reveal other players' location. Otherwise, we might be seeing these conversations:

blue: hey yellow, I'm trying to find blue, can you tell me where red's located?
Yellow: sure, if you tell me where green is located.
blue: sure it's a trade. green is....
yellow: Thanks! red is....

After that, all hell breaks loose and red and green start revealing all the locations of blue and yellow and there you have it - no more fog game because every location has been revealed (at that point in time). This may not be cheating but it's circumventing the purpose of fog, I think.
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Re: Is this cheating?

Postby Just_essence on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:20 pm

I guess it's because of the moral laws drive into most of us that prevent us from considering this idea. Also because it means that the victim (and maybe others) will FAMO you if you do.
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Re: Is this cheating?

Postby darth emperor on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:35 pm

inchul64 wrote:Ok. I'm willing to accept that what he did is not cheating. But if that's the case, why don't more players use the chat during an assassin/fog game to reveal other player's positions. One specific example would be if you know which player is coming for you. Then in order to get your assassin off our back, you would announce all their locations that you know in order to help the assassin coming after him/her. This is only useful in small maps like Doodle Earth and Luxembourg.

Because is just an strategy. There are many other strategies you can use. Also a big downside of this strategy (apart of getting the wrath of some players who don't like it) is that by revealing your opponents situation you are also revealing yours.
For example, in your situation, yellow revealed himself to be in Troisverges. Ok, in this case being an assassin trench (and knowing you were his assassin) it was ok for him to reveal the situation. But what if he made a mistake, and really it was red who was after him? Red would know where to look. And if this wasn't trench neither assassin? Red might have tried from Feulen to kill yellow and get his cards. You have to know where and when is sensitive to use an strategy, because in one situation it can be a good idea, while in other it would be a horrible idea.


inchul64 wrote:In my opinion, in a fog game, players shouldn't be allowed to reveal other players' location. Otherwise, we might be seeing these conversations:

blue: hey yellow, I'm trying to find blue, can you tell me where red's located?
Yellow: sure, if you tell me where green is located.
blue: sure it's a trade. green is....
yellow: Thanks! red is....

Ok, I'm assuming that you are thinking in an assassin game.
Problems of this chat:
-They reveal to everyone who their target is. So not only red we'll escape from blue, but the other players will know that if red is in danger they should attack blue.
-Well they make a type of alliance, but also green and red.
-Yellow, by saying "sure, if you tell me where green is located" he is revealing, that red is adjacent to him. So you can pretty much guess where red is (or find him easier if you don't know where yellow is) without doing a trade.
-Blue told all the regions of green? What if yellow decides not to keep his promise. As, revealing info, is not against the rules, is just bad sportmanship (or strategy by others)
-How can you be sure they are saying the truth. Maybe yellow says red is in Esch, but maybe red is in Bous. The same happens with blue

inchul64 wrote:After that, all hell breaks loose and red and green start revealing all the locations of blue and yellow and there you have it - no more fog game because every location has been revealed (at that point in time). This may not be cheating but it's circumventing the purpose of fog, I think.

As you said "at that point in time". The most probable thing is that after knowing all this, everyone starts moving against their target, so after few round, you cannot be sure where everyone is. So it wouldn't accomplish anything. Also even if they didn't move at all, you can't be sure (after a few rounds) how many(and where) troops does the others have. Even if blue and yellow told how many troops and where it was.

In summary, yes revealing info is a strategy, but is not a basic strategy like "getting spoils every round in a flat rate game". You have to be wise to use it, and also think the consequences that this will bring. No matter if that info is truth of false.
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Re: Is this cheating?

Postby SirSebstar on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:10 am

darth emperor wrote:And to reply the OP, is NOT cheating, in the sense that this is not against the rules. But to some is considered bad sportmanship to others is strategy. I believe is just a part of the fog game (you can't be sure if is lying), but if you feel is bad then I suggest you to FAMO (foe and move on).

he speaks the truth
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Re: Is this cheating?

Postby darth emperor on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:15 pm

SirSebstar wrote:
darth emperor wrote:And to reply the OP, is NOT cheating, in the sense that this is not against the rules. But to some is considered bad sportmanship to others is strategy. I believe is just a part of the fog game (you can't be sure if is lying), but if you feel is bad then I suggest you to FAMO (foe and move on).

he speaks the truth

I ALWAYS speak the truth.
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