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Fog of war courtesy

Postby Gillipig on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:33 am

I constantly play games now with people who have no class. They attack sometimes less than a minute after they join my game and refuse to tell me which regions they attacked. Cunts, I've actually started foeing them. And I NEVER otherwise foe.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby ben.cleuch on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:38 am

It would seem to be the norm, especially in 1v1
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby AyeTrain on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:14 pm

Gillipig wrote:I constantly play games now with people who have no class. They attack sometimes less than a minute after they join my game and refuse to tell me which regions they attacked. Cunts, I've actually started foeing them. And I NEVER otherwise foe.


Isn't attacking the point of the game? And why would they tell you what region they attacked?
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Viceroy63 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:54 pm

AyeTrain wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I constantly play games now with people who have no class. They attack sometimes less than a minute after they join my game and refuse to tell me which regions they attacked. Cunts, I've actually started foeing them. And I NEVER otherwise foe.


Isn't attacking the point of the game? And why would they tell you what region they attacked?


LOL; I believe he is referring to multiple player fog games where he does not get to see the original starting position.

Sometimes in teams they even agree to what is called a 12 hour fog rule where the first player does not play for 12 hours so as to give everyone the peak at the original positions.

If it's just one person who has played or a 1vs1 then it is not much to cry about, but after several players have made their attacks, a lot of the original information could be lost for the rest of the game.

And as they say in the "JOE's," "Knowing, is half the Battle."
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Gillipig on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:36 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
AyeTrain wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I constantly play games now with people who have no class. They attack sometimes less than a minute after they join my game and refuse to tell me which regions they attacked. Cunts, I've actually started foeing them. And I NEVER otherwise foe.


Isn't attacking the point of the game? And why would they tell you what region they attacked?


LOL; I believe he is referring to multiple player fog games where he does not get to see the original starting position.

Sometimes in teams they even agree to what is called a 12 hour fog rule where the first player does not play for 12 hours so as to give everyone the peak at the original positions.

If it's just one person who has played or a 1vs1 then it is not much to cry about, but after several players have made their attacks, a lot of the original information could be lost for the rest of the game.

And as they say in the "JOE's," "Knowing, is half the Battle."

No, I mean in singles too! It totally fucks the game if someone takes down 4 of your regions before you even get to see where they are. Fog of war courtesy involves waiting 12 hours before taking the first turn of a game so that the other player can see where his regions are. It doesn't matter whether it's a team game or not.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Viceroy63 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:11 pm

Gillipig wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:
AyeTrain wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I constantly play games now with people who have no class. They attack sometimes less than a minute after they join my game and refuse to tell me which regions they attacked. Cunts, I've actually started foeing them. And I NEVER otherwise foe.


Isn't attacking the point of the game? And why would they tell you what region they attacked?


LOL; I believe he is referring to multiple player fog games where he does not get to see the original starting position.

Sometimes in teams they even agree to what is called a 12 hour fog rule where the first player does not play for 12 hours so as to give everyone the peak at the original positions.

If it's just one person who has played or a 1vs1 then it is not much to cry about, but after several players have made their attacks, a lot of the original information could be lost for the rest of the game.

And as they say in the "JOE's," "Knowing, is half the Battle."

No, I mean in singles too! It totally fucks the game if someone takes down 4 of your regions before you even get to see where they are. Fog of war courtesy involves waiting 12 hours before taking the first turn of a game so that the other player can see where his regions are. It doesn't matter whether it's a team game or not.


GiliPIG; LOL. I'm going to send you an invite for a 1vs1 so that you can show me where that "fucks" up the game. Hopefully you'll get to go first and take out 4 of my regions as you say. I won't even be watching the game in case you do get to go first so that I won't have any idea of your original position. Except of course for when it's my turn to play. =)

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There it is GilliPIG! Do you accept?
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby DJPatrick on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:35 pm

? Gillipig??? I've played about 3K Foggies and never heard of this (altho granted I've never played you in one)...don't see why it's necessary...would also be a bit of a hindrance in Fog Speed games? lol
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby NoSurvivors on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:09 pm

Im gonna go play some speed fog games and yell at people for not waiting the "standard" 12 hours to let me see my turns :p
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby iamkoolerthanu on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:14 am

I usually only follow the FoW courtesy 'rule' when playing team games. Or tourny games. And even then only when it won't make it so its a pain to take my turn, I won't risk missing for it
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Jippd on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:45 am

Try making private games. Have people PM you for the PW and tell them there is a FOW rule if they want to join. Post in callouts to get joiners. Should solve your problem.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Gillipig on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:00 am

Jippd wrote:Try making private games. Have people PM you for the PW and tell them there is a FOW rule if they want to join. Post in callouts to get joiners. Should solve your problem.

Too hard to get games started that way, I'd have to settle with playing very few games. Better to just foe all the assholes!

iamkoolerthanu wrote:I usually only follow the FoW courtesy 'rule' when playing team games. Or tourny games. And even then only when it won't make it so its a pain to take my turn, I won't risk missing for it

If you have to take your turn then at least post in game chat which regions you took. If you do that then you will have followed fog of war courtesy.

Viceroy63 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:
AyeTrain wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I constantly play games now with people who have no class. They attack sometimes less than a minute after they join my game and refuse to tell me which regions they attacked. Cunts, I've actually started foeing them. And I NEVER otherwise foe.


Isn't attacking the point of the game? And why would they tell you what region they attacked?


LOL; I believe he is referring to multiple player fog games where he does not get to see the original starting position.

Sometimes in teams they even agree to what is called a 12 hour fog rule where the first player does not play for 12 hours so as to give everyone the peak at the original positions.

If it's just one person who has played or a 1vs1 then it is not much to cry about, but after several players have made their attacks, a lot of the original information could be lost for the rest of the game.

And as they say in the "JOE's," "Knowing, is half the Battle."

No, I mean in singles too! It totally fucks the game if someone takes down 4 of your regions before you even get to see where they are. Fog of war courtesy involves waiting 12 hours before taking the first turn of a game so that the other player can see where his regions are. It doesn't matter whether it's a team game or not.


GiliPIG; LOL. I'm going to send you an invite for a 1vs1 so that you can show me where that "fucks" up the game. Hopefully you'll get to go first and take out 4 of my regions as you say. I won't even be watching the game in case you do get to go first so that I won't have any idea of your original position. Except of course for when it's my turn to play. =)

GAME LINK:
Game 12284937

There it is GilliPIG! Do you accept?

I would if it were a larger map, create one with Forbidden City and without trench (obviously) and you'll see what I mean.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:42 am

OK; So then that is only possible on some larger maps and with the right settings. Gotcha! ;)

How's about World 2.0? I don't know the Forbidden City Map.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby AyeTrain on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:35 am

Gillipig wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:
AyeTrain wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I constantly play games now with people who have no class. They attack sometimes less than a minute after they join my game and refuse to tell me which regions they attacked. Cunts, I've actually started foeing them. And I NEVER otherwise foe.


Isn't attacking the point of the game? And why would they tell you what region they attacked?


LOL; I believe he is referring to multiple player fog games where he does not get to see the original starting position.

Sometimes in teams they even agree to what is called a 12 hour fog rule where the first player does not play for 12 hours so as to give everyone the peak at the original positions.

If it's just one person who has played or a 1vs1 then it is not much to cry about, but after several players have made their attacks, a lot of the original information could be lost for the rest of the game.

And as they say in the "JOE's," "Knowing, is half the Battle."

No, I mean in singles too! It totally fucks the game if someone takes down 4 of your regions before you even get to see where they are. Fog of war courtesy involves waiting 12 hours before taking the first turn of a game so that the other player can see where his regions are. It doesn't matter whether it's a team game or not.


Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, that's a bit annoying, but it's just part of foggy games. Sometimes it works for you, sometimes it works against you (just like the dice). I've never heard of this courtesy rule before, so I don't find it surprising that lots of other players don't play by it.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby ZeekLTK on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:38 pm

Play with manual deploy then, you are guaranteed to see where your territories are before the game "starts"... because it doesn't start until all players have placed their troops (and therefore, all players have seen the board).
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Jippd on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:22 am

ZeekLTK wrote:Play with manual deploy then, you are guaranteed to see where your territories are before the game "starts"... because it doesn't start until all players have placed their troops (and therefore, all players have seen the board).

I would want to see what troop position and how much was dropped where more than just the start territory. I bet a lot more gets taken in the first few rounds with manual especially on bigger maps. This would just add to the confusion of not getting a proper snap
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby darth emperor on Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:59 am

Viceroy63 wrote:OK; So then that is only possible on some larger maps and with the right settings. Gotcha! ;)

How's about World 2.0? I don't know the Forbidden City Map.

Not necessarily, on the larger maps, is more a question about bonuses . If the first players takes you out of an area, you can't be sure if he has the bonus, or there are few neutrals (considering that you cannot see enough .

Granted, you can go there and see, but maybe if you know already that there are few neutrals, you can spend your efforts on getting some other areas of the game more interesting for you. In others words, it can change your full strategy.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:37 pm

darth emperor wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:OK; So then that is only possible on some larger maps and with the right settings. Gotcha! ;)

How's about World 2.0? I don't know the Forbidden City Map.

Not necessarily, on the larger maps, is more a question about bonuses . If the first players takes you out of an area, you can't be sure if he has the bonus, or there are few neutrals (considering that you cannot see enough .

Granted, you can go there and see, but maybe if you know already that there are few neutrals, you can spend your efforts on getting some other areas of the game more interesting for you. In others words, it can change your full strategy.


OK; I'll concede. =) You guys may have a point. I would guess then that the strategy of Fog games would have to include being the first to play and blind your opponent before he sees you coming. :lol:

No seriously; When you put it like that where if you are blinded in a certain area and in that area there are several angles or directions from which to amass an assault, then you would be at a disadvantage not knowing from where the attack would be coming from. I take it that is something of what you are trying to convey to me.

OK; But doesn't BOB tell you if your opponent has a bonus or not? Maybe not? Right. I thought it would.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby darth emperor on Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:59 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
darth emperor wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:OK; So then that is only possible on some larger maps and with the right settings. Gotcha! ;)

How's about World 2.0? I don't know the Forbidden City Map.

Not necessarily, on the larger maps, is more a question about bonuses . If the first players takes you out of an area, you can't be sure if he has the bonus, or there are few neutrals (considering that you cannot see enough .

Granted, you can go there and see, but maybe if you know already that there are few neutrals, you can spend your efforts on getting some other areas of the game more interesting for you. In others words, it can change your full strategy.


OK; I'll concede. =) You guys may have a point. I would guess then that the strategy of Fog games would have to include being the first to play and blind your opponent before he sees you coming. :lol:

No seriously; When you put it like that where if you are blinded in a certain area and in that area there are several angles or directions from which to amass an assault, then you would be at a disadvantage not knowing from where the attack would be coming from. I take it that is something of what you are trying to convey to me.

OK; But doesn't BOB tell you if your opponent has a bonus or not? Maybe not? Right. I thought it would.

Of course, BOB tells you, but after he got the bonus, the same as you see in the log. BOB doesn't give you info that you can't see in the logs.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby nicestash on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:36 pm

I always give my opponents in all games at least 12 hours to grab a snap, but it can be a big disadvantage for me because if my opponent doesn't follow the same protocol, I end up at an advantage. That said, most players I've gone up against have shown my their log after I complain about not getting a snap. In my experience, the fog rule does not generally apply to 1v1 games; most people are surprised when I mention it.
If you care very deeply about the fog rule in 1v1 games, simply don't start your own games and join someone else's.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Fewnix on Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:06 pm

A Fog of War game involves strategy. In RL there are rules for real wars, Geneva Convention anyone? Perhaps the 12 hour rule can be made a Rule like the Clan Sitting Rule in clan war games or League games, but remain a question of "courtesy" and strategy in "friendly" games?

p.s. Good discussion on Fof of War in wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_of_war ... _and_games
The fog of war is the uncertainty in situational awareness experienced by participants in military operations.[1] The term seeks to capture the uncertainty regarding one's own capability, adversary capability, and adversary intent during an engagement, operation, or campaign.

...
The concept was introduced by the Prussian military analyst Carl von Clausewitz in his posthumously published book, Vom Kriege (1837), which appeared in English translation in 1873 under the title On War:

Der Krieg ist das Gebiet der Ungewißheit; drei Vierteile derjenigen Dinge, worauf das Handeln im Kriege gebaut wird, liegen im Nebel einer mehr oder weniger großen Ungewißheit. Hier ist es also zuerst, wo ein feiner, durchdringender Verstand in Anspruch genommen wird, um mit dem Takte seines Urteils die Wahrheit herauszufühlen.[2]

(War is an area of uncertainty; three quarters of the things on which all action in War is based are lying in a fog of uncertainty to a greater or lesser extent. The first thing (needed) here is a fine, piercing mind, to feel out the truth with the measure of its judgment).
Carl von Clausewitz

The term "fog of war" has become jargon in military and adventure video and computer games, in the more limited sense of enemy units or characters being hidden from the player.

One early use of fog of war was the 1978 game Tanktics designed by Chris Crawford, which was criticized for its fog of war system detracting from the fun of the game. Crawford later noted that "...when the games get too realistic, they lose their appeal."[4
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Viceroy63 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:58 pm

nicestash wrote:I always give my opponents in all games at least 12 hours to grab a snap, but it can be a big disadvantage for me because if my opponent doesn't follow the same protocol, I end up at an advantage. That said, most players I've gone up against have shown my their log after I complain about not getting a snap. In my experience, the fog rule does not generally apply to 1v1 games; most people are surprised when I mention it.
If you care very deeply about the fog rule in 1v1 games, simply don't start your own games and join someone else's.


I have started games where being the Red player I went first. But most of the times it is some one else that goes first. So maybe you have a point there.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Armandolas on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:00 pm

its only about fair play, some people have it , some people dont.

If u ask and they dont care to tell you, then its just ugly. Apart for the advantage of going 1st they take that advantage. Seems to me that what only matters is win, and respect is putten aside.
Well thats life and this is just a game, let them have their cookies and be happy with that.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby MoB Deadly on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:25 pm

By default I do not follow this rule, I have a difficult enough time remembering to take all my turns occasionally.

If I make a turn too fast and someone asks what I conquered, I would be happy to tell them.

Honestly I dont remember about 12 hour fog, unless it is stated in the Game Label.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Vid_FISO on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:29 pm

Isn't there a suggestions in suggestions regarding some sort of "auto-snap"?

I guess another idea would be to have a FoW setting that can be checked or not and if checked then rather than have the first to move face the possible inconvenience of wasting 12 hours of their 24 for snaps not to be taken that there is a 12 hour clock for the 2nd to play to view the board/ take a snap.
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Re: Fog of war courtesy

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:46 pm

I guess that a fair thing to do would be to take a snap using BOB and that way everyone with BOB can see the original position. I think?

As to that Auto-snapshot suggestion, I believe it was rejected. I am not sure though. Maybe some one else does?

Otherwise, I just love cookies and if you let me have them, I'll just eat em all up. LOL.

"Who stole the cookies from the Cookie Jar? > Number 3 stole the cookies from the Cookie Jar. - Who Me, Couldn't be..." :lol:
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