Three Kingdoms of China - v10.0 [2013-12-31] p22 GFX & XML

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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby Seamus76 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:38 am

CURRENT UPDATE INFO - 2013-01-29:
Starting to work on graphics in anticipation of GP stamp. Personally I really like this map, so please let me know what I need to work on.
- Added slight shadow to the coastline.

CURRENT MAP VERSION

v4.1 - Large (840x800)
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby sannemanrobinson on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:05 pm

I like this as well. Especially the four red lines as a frame and the paper texture. The mountains look good too. The filling of the continents is a bit massive and not exacly the same as the minimaps. Maybe just indicating the borders of the continents with the same colour as the minimaps would work just like in 3 kingdoms of Korea.

Gameplay related: Central Wei could be +6 to be more attractie than Jing. Then Kingdom of Wei would be +10. On the other hand if you have Bei Ping it will be easy to hold so it could stay like now. Maybe connect Bei Ping and Jianye over the sea?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby skychaser on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Well. Talking on gameplay. Don't we need more bonuses? Wei is surelly stronger, but at this map is the only one who's got easy bonuses.
Take Yang as an example. You must have 6 territories to get a +3 bonus, 6X3 = 18. So you must maybe conquer 18 territories to get a bonus +3. Which will pay itself in over 6 rounds Which means that in most absolute of the matches we will never have one of these territories being taken.


Shu has no bonuses except that unexperienced players of no card and fixed cards may try to take something.
Wei has only two bonuses we can account. Most people would take then given that they are dropped with most territories there. The central part of Wei is not that much of a bonus. You must defeat 27 armies to have a bonus of 5 and 666 borders to defend.

I think this map with virtually no bonuses tends a little to lesser action. Most people would never take nothing than the +1 bonuses and it's not something to make someone jealous or something.

I don't know if people agree to me but I would put a little bit of numbers to the bonuses, the +1 would become +2 and the +2 become +4. All the other with the addiction of 2.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:44 pm

I will take one final look at it tonight to and address skychaser's comments before stamping. Sound good Seamus?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:52 pm

I can see where skychaser is coming from. Hm.


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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby Seamus76 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:55 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I will take one final look at it tonight to and address skychaser's comments before stamping. Sound good Seamus?

That's perfect, just let me know what you come up with.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby The Bison King on Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:18 pm

skychaser wrote:Well. Talking on gameplay. Don't we need more bonuses? Wei is surelly stronger, but at this map is the only one who's got easy bonuses.
Take Yang as an example. You must have 6 territories to get a +3 bonus, 6X3 = 18. So you must maybe conquer 18 territories to get a bonus +3. Which will pay itself in over 6 rounds Which means that in most absolute of the matches we will never have one of these territories being taken.


Shu has no bonuses except that unexperienced players of no card and fixed cards may try to take something.
Wei has only two bonuses we can account. Most people would take then given that they are dropped with most territories there. The central part of Wei is not that much of a bonus. You must defeat 27 armies to have a bonus of 5 and 666 borders to defend.

I think this map with virtually no bonuses tends a little to lesser action. Most people would never take nothing than the +1 bonuses and it's not something to make someone jealous or something.

I don't know if people agree to me but I would put a little bit of numbers to the bonuses, the +1 would become +2 and the +2 become +4. All the other with the addiction of 2.


I have 2 thoughts on this.

The first is the obvious solution break up some of the larger bonuses into smaller ones.

The second is a little different. You could scrap the +4 for all the capitals rule. I think that's a little bit of a tired convention and doesn't add much to the map anyway. With that rule scraped you could add a new rule. Something to the tune of +1 for any 3 territories within a kingdom held with the capital. This would make the larger bonus regions more of just a territory buffet. You wouldn't need the entire region to reap a reward so long as you have the capital. The actual territory bonus would probably only come into play at the end game (as it probably would already). This would also give the kingdoms more of a unified feel if holding the capital along with bonus regions was a reward in and of itself.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby The Bison King on Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:20 pm

That being said I think Sky Chaser is over emphasizing the need for more obtainable bonuses. I can see 2 bonuses in the red region that could be easily held with 2 territories. You could probably have either of them within round 5. It may not need any serious adjustment.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby Seamus76 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:22 pm

Thanks so much guys for the discussion and feedback, this is great stuff.

The Bison King wrote:That being said I think Sky Chaser is over emphasizing the need for more obtainable bonuses. I can see 2 bonuses in the red region that could be easily held with 2 territories. You could probably have either of them within round 5. It may not need any serious adjustment.

I agree as well. The bonuses have been pretty well examined and seem appropriate for the size of the map.

Also, the more I mull over your capital bonus thoughts the more I like it. There is nothing more I dislike than bonuses that don't get used, so something like this is more appealing. Would the capitals still start 3n or maybe go to 4n because of the new importance?

Nole, very much still interested in your thoughts.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby skychaser on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:18 pm

I didn't make myself clear so let me try again.

The bonuses aren't "hard" do obtain. I mean. Only that People go (in classic) for Australia cause it's easy to obtain and easy to protect. Very seldom one would go for such bonuses after round 3 however. A bonus obtainable by round 5 is a bonus that mostly doesn't exists at least at 6 players escalating(I don't know but I think it's the most played mode.

These bonus will very seldom be taken at escalating.
They will be still taken if it's played by 4 people or less.
They will be taken at Fixed cards and no cards.
They will be taken at escalating provided people are playing fog of war mode(my favorite).

Not ranting here. Just that I thought a slight more bonus would make more wars about these bonuses. I can't see however not many ways of winning in this map aside from turtling in clear escalating game.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby skychaser on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:22 pm

Or it may just be because i like bonuses the most even though I hardly get one any match.(I get a bonus in about 3% of my games in medium maps like this one).
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby Graceless_ on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:03 am

Just wanted to say, awesome concept for a map. Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a great book.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby Vlasov on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:08 am

Mongolia, perhaps?
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby Seamus76 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:38 am

skychaser wrote:I didn't make myself clear so let me try again.

The bonuses aren't "hard" do obtain. I mean. Only that People go (in classic) for Australia cause it's easy to obtain and easy to protect. Very seldom one would go for such bonuses after round 3 however. A bonus obtainable by round 5 is a bonus that mostly doesn't exists at least at 6 players escalating(I don't know but I think it's the most played mode.

These bonus will very seldom be taken at escalating.
They will be still taken if it's played by 4 people or less.
They will be taken at Fixed cards and no cards.
They will be taken at escalating provided people are playing fog of war mode(my favorite).

Not ranting here. Just that I thought a slight more bonus would make more wars about these bonuses. I can't see however not many ways of winning in this map aside from turtling in clear escalating game.

I play a lot of no spoils dubs games so this is very helpful information, and I really appreciate you taking the time to post. I'm looking forward to playing everyone on the map once it's in beta. Nole was pretty instrumental in helping shape the current bonus structure so we'll see what his thoughts are, and I'll kind of go from there.

Benzorrr wrote:Just wanted to say, awesome concept for a map. Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a great book.

Thanks, I think it's going to be a pretty popular map, but we'll see.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby skychaser on Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:29 pm

Vlasov wrote:Mongolia, perhaps?

The mongolians lead by Genghis Khan invaded China a couple centuries later the age of the Three Kingdoms of this map.

He wouldn't stand a chance if Zhuge Liang would be alive at the period.

Genghis Khan founded the Yuan Dinasty(that lasted 1000 years), this map represents the batle of three other ones.

Wei is the clan of Cao Cao, later lead by Cao Pi, Shu Han by Liu Bei and later Liu Chan and the Wu by Sun Jian and his sons Sun Ce and Sun Quan.
After these battles the Sima's could unify the country and were defeated later by Ghenghis Khan.

Thus the mongolians are far from here.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby Vlasov on Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:12 pm

Okay. Good history. The 3 Kingdoms of China get my vote!
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby iancanton on Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:17 am

if u increase the smallest bonuses from +1 to +2, then the kingdom superbonuses (and probably most other bonuses except the ones needing fewest regions) will be ignored.

ian. :)
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby sannemanrobinson on Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:16 am

These two sound logical to me:
The Bison King wrote:The first is the obvious solution break up some of the larger bonuses into smaller ones.

The second is a little different. You could scrap the +4 for all the capitals rule. I think that's a little bit of a tired convention and doesn't add much to the map anyway. With that rule scraped you could add a new rule. Something to the tune of +1 for any 3 territories within a kingdom held with the capital. This would make the larger bonus regions more of just a territory buffet. You wouldn't need the entire region to reap a reward so long as you have the capital. The actual territory bonus would probably only come into play at the end game (as it probably would already). This would also give the kingdoms more of a unified feel if holding the capital along with bonus regions was a reward in and of itself.


Especially the +1 for 3 territories and capital is good.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby skychaser on Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:34 am

Well. Back in the days having the capital and strong cities would be a mean of conquer. Having the capital would guarantee supplies to your armies. In fact any of the provinces and there were many, would have had a capital and that was the logical view so having the capital + regions at the same territory would be nice indeed as game play and as logical historical viewpoint.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby squeaks_is_mine on Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:07 pm

As a fan of Kessen 2, and the Dynasty Warriors/Tactics Series I am ecstatic to play this...and if anyone is able can they make a Metro Atlanta, GA Map? Would be much appreciated
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby nolefan5311 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:42 pm

Sorry it's taken me so long to post Seamus, but I've had a busy week.

Strictly speaking for the territorial bonuses, the only one I would recommend changing is increasing Central Wei to a +6, but this probably isn't going to matter. Bonuses like this one (ala Asia in Classic) are never held, so it's not going to matter much. One change I think needs to be made is to change the connection from Jianye to He Fei instead of Xu Chang. Currently it's a 6 region +3 bonus that can held by holding two territories (Lu-Ling and Xu Chang). The additional territory being able to attack in would justify the +3 a little more.

Changing that connection would also put the +4 for the Capital bonus more in line with what it should be. Another option for the Capitals is to just make them +1 for holding 1, and then awarding an additional troop for holding all of them at the same time. I'm not sure what your ideal vision for the map is Seamus but currently it appears games will revolve around the Cities and Capitals and this change would further encourage that.

As far as the +1 for every territory held within a Kingdom as long as you hold a Capital...not really a fan of that idea. At most people will probably only ever receive a +2 (prior to the endgame), so I don't think that change is a good idea. But, it's your map, and if that's the direction you decide to go, then godspeed.

I'm also really excited about the community involvement in this one. It appears you've got a hit on your hands here Seamus!

:)
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.1 [2013-01-29] p7

Postby Seamus76 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:09 am

nolefan5311 wrote:Sorry it's taken me so long to post Seamus, but I've had a busy week.

Not a problem at all. Thanks for your time.

nolefan5311 wrote:Strictly speaking for the territorial bonuses, the only one I would recommend changing is increasing Central Wei to a +6, but this probably isn't going to matter. Bonuses like this one (ala Asia in Classic) are never held, so it's not going to matter much.

Let me know, but I heard "keep it the way it is". :D

nolefan5311 wrote:One change I think needs to be made is to change the connection from Jianye to He Fei instead of Xu Chang. Currently it's a 6 region +3 bonus that can held by holding two territories (Lu-Ling and Xu Chang). The additional territory being able to attack in would justify the +3 a little more.

I like this, will be an easy move.

nolefan5311 wrote:Changing that connection would also put the +4 for the Capital bonus more in line with what it should be. Another option for the Capitals is to just make them +1 for holding 1, and then awarding an additional troop for holding all of them at the same time. I'm not sure what your ideal vision for the map is Seamus but currently it appears games will revolve around the Cities and Capitals and this change would further encourage that.
V.J. and I are going to mull it over a bit, but you know I hate bonuses that don't get used, so a +1 for each and then +4 for all 3 is good to me.

nolefan5311 wrote:As far as the +1 for every territory held within a Kingdom as long as you hold a Capital...not really a fan of that idea. As most people will probably only ever receive a +2 (prior to the endgame), so I don't think that change is a good idea. But, it's your map, and if that's the direction you decide to go, then godspeed.
I agree with you on this one, V.J. and I will come back with an update tomorrow and hopefully we can keep this one moving along at a nice pace.
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.2 [2013-02-03] p9

Postby The Bison King on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:13 pm

Also, the more I mull over your capital bonus thoughts the more I like it. There is nothing more I dislike than bonuses that don't get used, so something like this is more appealing. Would the capitals still start 3n or maybe go to 4n because of the new importance?

I'd keep them at 3n
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.2 [2013-02-03] p9

Postby Seamus76 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:30 pm

CURRENT UPDATE INFO - 2013-02-03:
- After great feedback (thank you all so much), Noles comments, discussion with Koontz and V.J. we're going to keep the Capital bonus as it is, +4 for holding all 3 Capitals. The change will be that the Capitals will start 2n instead of 3n. This will help keep the map simple and not over-bonus a small map, and at the same time allow the Capital bonus to come into play for more types of games. So the map itself hasn't really been updated since v4.1, but the Starting Neutral/888 version has been updated in the OP, and the OP itself has been updated to reflect the new neutrals. I think this will work best, and hope everyone agrees.

CURRENT MAP VERSION

v4.2 - Large (840x800)
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v4.2 - Large (840x800)-with 888's and starting neutrals
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Re: Three Kingdoms of China - v4.2 [2013-02-03] p9

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:42 am

It looks like you've got quite a bit of input on this one, and I think the Gameplay is excellent. So, that being said, here is your next stamp

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Onwards and upwards Seamus :)
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