ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Symmetry on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:16 pm

Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.


So choose a country without taxation or government. They're mostly called failed states. You'll be very free there.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:19 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.


So choose a country without taxation or government. They're mostly called failed states. You'll be very free there.


I never said I wanted to go without those things. I've always stated that our government should be limited to its founding document: the Constitution. It shouldn't continue expanding its spending, regulations, and power into perpetuity. When it can mandate purchases only because a person breathes, it has moved well beyond its authority.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:23 pm

Dles anyone and I mean ANYONE even know whats in the bill. NO.. So why complain for it as no one even knows what its all about. Unless people truly know what the bill says the people arguing for it might not like some of the hidden provisions.this is just a government from to TAKE CARE OF YOU. AKA have total control of your health. Before you know it health providers will tell you how to live or the government will probably tax you on being overweight or having to high blood pressure.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Symmetry on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:24 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.


So choose a country without taxation or government. They're mostly called failed states. You'll be very free there.


I never said I wanted to go without those things. I've always stated that our government should be limited to its founding document: the Constitution. It shouldn't continue expanding its spending, regulations, and power into perpetuity. When it can mandate purchases only because a person breathes, it has moved well beyond its authority.


Even then you wouldn't be able to spend "your" money in the way that you choose. That would be antithetical to freedom, would it not?
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:31 pm

Symmetry wrote:Even then you wouldn't be able to spend "your" money in the way that you choose. That would be antithetical to freedom, would it not?


There are specific things the federal government is tasked to cover. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that I can be forced to buy a product or hand over my money to the government instead. It is my choice where I spend my money, and the money I have to pay in taxes is supposed to go to Constitutional tasks of the federal government, not unconstitutional ones. Freedom doesn't exist when people have to turn over everything to the government for them to then dole out what they think each person needs.


And speaking of the completely wrong role of government, at least this Democrat admits that his goal is to make sure the government pays for everything and completely removes personal and familial responsibility from the citizens:

(CNSNews.com) - It's the job of government, not families, to take care of grandma, says Rep. Jim McDermott (D-Wash.), a member of the House Ways and Means Committee.

McDermott, appearing on C-SPAN Tuesday, said he opposes cuts to Medicare, the government program that paid his own parents' medical bills: "Now we have a Medicare program, where my father -- and my father lived to 93, my mother to 97 -- and my brothers and sisters and I did nothing for them, except pay their taxes."

McDermott said there is no reason to cut Medicare benefits for senior citizens, even though spending will escalate as millions of Baby Boomers come into the program: "So we simply have got to deal with the fact that the population is going to mean more spending," he said. "It's not that spending is out of control."

He said Republicans want to raise the retirement age to save taxpayer dollars. And what would seniors do then? They would do what they did before Medicare -- which is "turn to their children" to pay their medical bills.

McDermott pointed to his own grandmother as an example:

"When I grew up, my grandmother had four daughters, and she spent three months with each one of them. And she had no Medicare, she had no Social Security. And she lived with her daughters. And we took care of her. I mean, I got thrown out of my bedroom. My bedroom became grandma's bedroom, I slept on the couch in the living room, because that's the way families took care of their seniors before 1964.

"Now we have a Medidare program, where my father -- and my father lived to 93, my mother to 97 -- and my brothers and sisters and I did nothing for them, except pay their taxes.

"One year, we gave my mom a Christmas gift, a hearing aid. A hearing aid cost about $800, a lot of money. So all of us chipped in and we bought my ma a hearing aid. That was her Christmas gift...Medicare doesn't cover that.

"And so as you get older and lose your hearing, good luck, you're on your own. That's what we say to seniors with their hearing problems. And my view is, that we're a better country than that. We can find a way to do it and make the system more efficient."

McDermott says Democrats are "going to find the money to cover all the senior citizens in this country under the Medicare program at 65." He said there are "all kinds of ways" to save money in the Medicare program, "but it doesn't mean taking benefits away from senior citizens."

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/rep-mcdermott-thanks-medicare-my-brothers-and-sisters-and-i-did-nothing-our-parents
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Symmetry on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:37 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Even then you wouldn't be able to spend "your" money in the way that you choose. That would be antithetical to freedom, would it not?


There are specific things the federal government is tasked to cover. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that I can be forced to buy a product or hand over my money to the government instead. It is my choice where I spend my money, and the money I have to pay in taxes is supposed to go to Constitutional tasks of the federal government, not unconstitutional ones. Freedom doesn't exist when people have to turn over everything to the government for them to then dole out what they think each person needs.


And speaking of the completely wrong role of government, at least this Democrat admits that his goal is to make sure the government pays for everything and completely removes personal and familial responsibility from the citizens:

(CNSNews.com) - It's the job of government, not families, to take care of grandma, says Rep. Jim McDermott (D-Wash.), a member of the House Ways and Means Committee.

McDermott, appearing on C-SPAN Tuesday, said he opposes cuts to Medicare, the government program that paid his own parents' medical bills: "Now we have a Medicare program, where my father -- and my father lived to 93, my mother to 97 -- and my brothers and sisters and I did nothing for them, except pay their taxes."

McDermott said there is no reason to cut Medicare benefits for senior citizens, even though spending will escalate as millions of Baby Boomers come into the program: "So we simply have got to deal with the fact that the population is going to mean more spending," he said. "It's not that spending is out of control."

He said Republicans want to raise the retirement age to save taxpayer dollars. And what would seniors do then? They would do what they did before Medicare -- which is "turn to their children" to pay their medical bills.

McDermott pointed to his own grandmother as an example:

"When I grew up, my grandmother had four daughters, and she spent three months with each one of them. And she had no Medicare, she had no Social Security. And she lived with her daughters. And we took care of her. I mean, I got thrown out of my bedroom. My bedroom became grandma's bedroom, I slept on the couch in the living room, because that's the way families took care of their seniors before 1964.

"Now we have a Medidare program, where my father -- and my father lived to 93, my mother to 97 -- and my brothers and sisters and I did nothing for them, except pay their taxes.

"One year, we gave my mom a Christmas gift, a hearing aid. A hearing aid cost about $800, a lot of money. So all of us chipped in and we bought my ma a hearing aid. That was her Christmas gift...Medicare doesn't cover that.

"And so as you get older and lose your hearing, good luck, you're on your own. That's what we say to seniors with their hearing problems. And my view is, that we're a better country than that. We can find a way to do it and make the system more efficient."

McDermott says Democrats are "going to find the money to cover all the senior citizens in this country under the Medicare program at 65." He said there are "all kinds of ways" to save money in the Medicare program, "but it doesn't mean taking benefits away from senior citizens."

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/rep-mcdermott-thanks-medicare-my-brothers-and-sisters-and-i-did-nothing-our-parents


So essentially you're shifting your principals. You now find paying taxes an acceptable means of purchasing something, as long as it's done without your direct (albeit limited) choice?

Your arguments shift around quite a lot NS. Is this latest post more in line with your thinking, or do you think your previous posts are your position?
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:40 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:Dles anyone and I mean ANYONE even know whats in the bill. NO.. So why complain for it as no one even knows what its all about. Unless people truly know what the bill says the people arguing for it might not like some of the hidden provisions.this is just a government from to TAKE CARE OF YOU. AKA have total control of your health. Before you know it health providers will tell you how to live or the government will probably tax you on being overweight or having to high blood pressure.



Which is fair, really. There should be extra taxes on sugary stuff and fatty stuff, just like there are extra taxes on nicotine stuff.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:45 pm

Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.

Are there states where you are not required to buy car insurance if you drive? Serious question, I wasn't aware of any.

stahrgazer wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:Dles anyone and I mean ANYONE even know whats in the bill. NO.. So why complain for it as no one even knows what its all about. Unless people truly know what the bill says the people arguing for it might not like some of the hidden provisions.this is just a government from to TAKE CARE OF YOU. AKA have total control of your health. Before you know it health providers will tell you how to live or the government will probably tax you on being overweight or having to high blood pressure.



Which is fair, really. There should be extra taxes on sugary stuff and fatty stuff, just like there are extra taxes on nicotine stuff.

Very fair, and I have readily admitted in this thread that I don't think the law is perfect, and does have an awful lot of ambiguity.

Also, although the government doesn't mandate that you pay more if you are overweight or smoke, employers ARE allowed to have employees pay more if they smoke, are overweight, etc (as long as they implement it properly and don't break any of the rules in HIPAA, the ADA, GINA, etc).
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:55 pm

All I can say is once the foot is in the door it isn't long before most aspects of your health will be in review. Some people are naturally big not by there own doings. Is it fair to make them pay more if it is medically not their fault. Its a very slippery slope.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Symmetry on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:03 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:All I can say is once the foot is in the door it isn't long before most aspects of your health will be in review. Some people are naturally big not by there own doings. Is it fair to make them pay more if it is medically not their fault. Its a very slippery slope.


Is this a bad thing? The slope has always been there, both up and down, most notably with drug laws.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:03 pm

jj3044 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.

Are there states where you are not required to buy car insurance if you drive? Serious question, I wasn't aware of any.


If you have enough money to cover what a liability insurance policy would cover, you can choose to prove assets instead of buying insurance. http://www.dmv.org/insurance/proof-of-financial-responsibility.php#tz_MO And, of course, if you don't own a car, you don't have to buy car insurance. Under Obamacare, the only way to not buy health insurance is to stop breathing.


Symmetry wrote:So essentially you're shifting your principals. You now find paying taxes an acceptable means of purchasing something, as long as it's done without your direct (albeit limited) choice?

Your arguments shift around quite a lot NS. Is this latest post more in line with your thinking, or do you think your previous posts are your position?


What are you talking about? Taxes are used to fund the necessary and proper role of the government. Mandatory purchases of private sector products are NOT included in that role.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:12 pm

Lits just micro manage every and I mean every aspect of a persons life. What you drive,where you live,do you have kids,are you white or black,family medical history,what color car you drive,are you prone to sunburn since that might cause cancer,do you own a dog,how far do you drive to work,do you own a gun,are you a smoker,whats your sexual preference,what do you eat,do you wear glasses have you ever been admitted into a psyche ward. These are all questions that could effect a policy. So if a person want a good policy do we have to enslave ourselves for good healthcare?
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:19 pm

Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.

Are there states where you are not required to buy car insurance if you drive? Serious question, I wasn't aware of any.


If you have enough money to cover what a liability insurance policy would cover, you can choose to prove assets instead of buying insurance. http://www.dmv.org/insurance/proof-of-financial-responsibility.php#tz_MO And, of course, if you don't own a car, you don't have to buy car insurance. Under Obamacare, the only way to not buy health insurance is to stop breathing.

Ah that is interesting. Thanks for the link. You learn something new every day!

The principle doesn't really change much though... the government is still saying that if you choose to not have insurance, you have to prove you have enough assets to pay, should you crash.

So, I would like to ask you this question: Would you be ok with health insurance being mandatory unless you can prove that you have the assets to pay for a major disease/condition should you get one (just as in this car insurance example)? Personally I would be in favor of that.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:47 am

jj3044 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:1. People react differently toward the involuntary exchanges of government compared to voluntary exchanges with corporations.
2. There's a double standard here.
3. JJ: Yeah, but corporations force you to buy car insurance.
4. No, they don't; they don't make the laws, they don't have security give you tickets and/or bring you to jail, etc.
5. JJ: I don't get it.
6. BBS summarizes and hopes JJ gets it.

LOL, if you think I didn't understand your point, you really don't understand mine.

1. Agreed.
2-4. You obviously missed my sentiment. I didn't say corporations. You did (in the section I bolded). I said "corporations" in quotes because you said that corporations force people to pay for their services. I know it isn't the corporations, it is the law. That wasn't what you were saying, and that is why I put it in quotations.

My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's irrelevant to the point I was making about the double standard.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:55 am

warmonger1981 wrote:All I can say is once the foot is in the door it isn't long before most aspects of your health will be in review. Some people are naturally big not by there own doings. Is it fair to make them pay more if it is medically not their fault. Its a very slippery slope.

EVERYTHING is under review.. but not just by the government. Corporations, particularly insurance companies and employers have long beat the government to that punch, because they want to make money.

The government, on the other hand, has another job... actually protecting people against the big guys. Of course, when folks allow the big money interests to convince them their penny-anty salaries are at risk if the big guys lose a few points in their salaries, the point becomes moot.

But.. the fault of government overrun is ALWAYS with individuals, not some abstract "government" that works on its own.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:57 am

jj3044 wrote:So, I would like to ask you this question: Would you be ok with health insurance being mandatory unless you can prove that you have the assets to pay for a major disease/condition should you get one (just as in this car insurance example)? Personally I would be in favor of that.


Nope, I wouldn't be ok with that because car and health insurance are completely different. Car insurance is required because a person chooses to drive a car while health insurance is required because a person chooses to breathe. I'd much rather have the government actually hold people accountable for paying their own bills if they don't have insurance instead of mandating that everyone has health insurance that costs at least $20k per year.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby chang50 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:23 am

[quote="Night Strike"][quote="jj3044"]So, I would like to ask you this question: Would you be ok with health insurance being mandatory unless you can prove that you have the assets to pay for a major disease/condition should you get one (just as in this car insurance example)? Personally I would be in favor of that.[/quote]

Nope, I wouldn't be ok with that because car and health insurance are completely different. Car insurance is required because a person chooses to drive a car while health insurance is required because a person chooses to breathe. I'd much rather have the government actually hold people accountable for paying their own bills if they don't have insurance instead of mandating that everyone has health insurance that costs at least $20k per year.[/quote]

Following your own logic you would have no problem with mandatory insurance for gun ownership presumably?
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:09 am

warmonger1981 wrote:Dles anyone and I mean ANYONE even know whats in the bill. NO.. So why complain for it as no one even knows what its all about. Unless people truly know what the bill says the people arguing for it might not like some of the hidden provisions.this is just a government from to TAKE CARE OF YOU. AKA have total control of your health. Before you know it health providers will tell you how to live or the government will probably tax you on being overweight or having to high blood pressure.


Why support it if no one knows what's in the bill?

If we use your logic and we know how much it costs, if we don't know what's in the bill, why in the hell would we pay upwards of a trillion dollars to implement it?

Anyway, we do know what's in the bill. It forces people to purchase health insurance. If they can't afford health insurance, the government buys health insurance for the individual or family. It's a win for health insurance companies.

What you have are three different discusssions going on. You have conservatives/Republicans screaming things like "death panels" and "socialism." You have liberals/Democrats screaming things like "it's a market for health insurance" and "we're taking care of the poor people." And you have people who aren't actually poliicians saying "this is a corporate boondoggle that will cost a shitton of money."
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:57 pm

Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:So, I would like to ask you this question: Would you be ok with health insurance being mandatory unless you can prove that you have the assets to pay for a major disease/condition should you get one (just as in this car insurance example)? Personally I would be in favor of that.


Nope, I wouldn't be ok with that because car and health insurance are completely different. Car insurance is required because a person chooses to drive a car while health insurance is required because a person chooses to breathe. I'd much rather have the government actually hold people accountable for paying their own bills if they don't have insurance instead of mandating that everyone has health insurance that costs at least $20k per year.

But that is the problem. How can the government make people accountable to pay their healthcare bills when they make 20k a year and just had a heart attack and emergency surgery that costs more than they make in their lifetime?

When someone can figure that out, I will gladly support it. Until then, we have mandatory insurance.

Again, is it perfect? No. Is it better than letting healthcare become 33% of our GDP by the time my kids are in college? Yes, I think so.

We HAVE to try this to control costs and not let healthcare bankrupt our nation. The funny part is that I hear a lot of complaints that the bill is going to cost 1.1T. But it has the potential to save a far greater sum of money to our country than that.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:14 pm

jj3044 wrote:Is it better than letting healthcare become 33% of our GDP by the time my kids are in college? Yes, I think so.


How do you know that it's better? If you don't know that it's better (and it seems like you don't), why would you spend $1.1 trillion?

jj3044 wrote:The funny part is that I hear a lot of complaints that the bill is going to cost 1.1T. But it has the potential to save a far greater sum of money to our country than that.


It has the potential? What, in our history, leads you to believe that something the government does will save money? You are putting a lot of faith in a government that has, among other things, waived the requirements of the ACA for going on 300 different (and large) companies and that, among other things, has helped to nearly bankrupt social security, and that, among other things, has helped to make sure Medicare and Medicaid are ineffective at best.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:33 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
jj3044 wrote:Is it better than letting healthcare become 33% of our GDP by the time my kids are in college? Yes, I think so.


How do you know that it's better? If you don't know that it's better (and it seems like you don't), why would you spend $1.1 trillion?

jj3044 wrote:The funny part is that I hear a lot of complaints that the bill is going to cost 1.1T. But it has the potential to save a far greater sum of money to our country than that.


It has the potential? What, in our history, leads you to believe that something the government does will save money? You are putting a lot of faith in a government that has, among other things, waived the requirements of the ACA for going on 300 different (and large) companies and that, among other things, has helped to nearly bankrupt social security, and that, among other things, has helped to make sure Medicare and Medicaid are ineffective at best.

That is correct, I don't know that it will be better. All I know is that the current system is unsustainable and WOULD have bankrupted our country. I'm pretty sure we are all in agreement there. So, I'm willing to try it. I think that there are a lot of good provisions in the bill that will help reduce the cost of healthcare in the long run. Hopefully our government made a good decision.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:37 pm

chang50 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:So, I would like to ask you this question: Would you be ok with health insurance being mandatory unless you can prove that you have the assets to pay for a major disease/condition should you get one (just as in this car insurance example)? Personally I would be in favor of that.


Nope, I wouldn't be ok with that because car and health insurance are completely different. Car insurance is required because a person chooses to drive a car while health insurance is required because a person chooses to breathe. I'd much rather have the government actually hold people accountable for paying their own bills if they don't have insurance instead of mandating that everyone has health insurance that costs at least $20k per year.


Following your own logic you would have no problem with mandatory insurance for gun ownership presumably?


Owning a gun is a Constitutional right while owning a car is not, so gun insurance would not be the same. To be honest, all of these fees, registrations, and possible insurance on owning a gun are all the exact same as poll taxes: an infringement on Constitutional rights.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:44 pm

jj3044 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
jj3044 wrote:Is it better than letting healthcare become 33% of our GDP by the time my kids are in college? Yes, I think so.


How do you know that it's better? If you don't know that it's better (and it seems like you don't), why would you spend $1.1 trillion?

jj3044 wrote:The funny part is that I hear a lot of complaints that the bill is going to cost 1.1T. But it has the potential to save a far greater sum of money to our country than that.


It has the potential? What, in our history, leads you to believe that something the government does will save money? You are putting a lot of faith in a government that has, among other things, waived the requirements of the ACA for going on 300 different (and large) companies and that, among other things, has helped to nearly bankrupt social security, and that, among other things, has helped to make sure Medicare and Medicaid are ineffective at best.

That is correct, I don't know that it will be better. All I know is that the current system is unsustainable and WOULD have bankrupted our country. I'm pretty sure we are all in agreement there. So, I'm willing to try it. I think that there are a lot of good provisions in the bill that will help reduce the cost of healthcare in the long run. Hopefully our government made a good decision.


Which good provisions in the bill will help reduce the cost of healthcare in the long run?
Are you concerned about the assignment of waivers to various large employers?
Are you concerned that the individual mandate will require that people purchase health insurance with generous benefits and virtually no cost-sharing?
What provisions of the ACA require that premiums and costs of insurance remain static? In other words, what's to prevent all health insurance from doubling their prices?
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby spurgistan on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:54 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
jj3044 wrote:Is it better than letting healthcare become 33% of our GDP by the time my kids are in college? Yes, I think so.


How do you know that it's better? If you don't know that it's better (and it seems like you don't), why would you spend $1.1 trillion?

jj3044 wrote:The funny part is that I hear a lot of complaints that the bill is going to cost 1.1T. But it has the potential to save a far greater sum of money to our country than that.


It has the potential? What, in our history, leads you to believe that something the government does will save money? You are putting a lot of faith in a government that has, among other things, waived the requirements of the ACA for going on 300 different (and large) companies and that, among other things, has helped to nearly bankrupt social security, and that, among other things, has helped to make sure Medicare and Medicaid are ineffective at best.


Medicare ineffective? explainplz?
Mr_Adams wrote:You, sir, are an idiot.


Timminz wrote:By that logic, you eat babies.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:46 am

spurgistan wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
jj3044 wrote:Is it better than letting healthcare become 33% of our GDP by the time my kids are in college? Yes, I think so.


How do you know that it's better? If you don't know that it's better (and it seems like you don't), why would you spend $1.1 trillion?

jj3044 wrote:The funny part is that I hear a lot of complaints that the bill is going to cost 1.1T. But it has the potential to save a far greater sum of money to our country than that.


It has the potential? What, in our history, leads you to believe that something the government does will save money? You are putting a lot of faith in a government that has, among other things, waived the requirements of the ACA for going on 300 different (and large) companies and that, among other things, has helped to nearly bankrupt social security, and that, among other things, has helped to make sure Medicare and Medicaid are ineffective at best.


Medicare ineffective? explainplz?


I actually meant inefficient.
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