Baltic Crusades

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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:34 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Map is too dark.


i can fix this.

Funkyterrance wrote: Some borders are invisible and some territory colors indistinguishable due to the high level of saturation of the darker colors.


Which borders, which colors? More details you give to me, more i can do to give you a better map.

Funkyterrance wrote:The buildings all look the same. Castles look like towns, towns look like cities, cities look like castles, etc..


I can change them, i think.

Funkyterrance wrote:It's a color-blind person's worst nightmare. Some of the zones are so close that I literally cannot tell which is which. The worst part is that the bonus situation entirely depends on your ability to have perfect color-vision. The key does not give any explanation beyond telling you what color=what bonus.


Again, which colors? all them...what is hard for you to see/distinguish?

I will work on an update as soon as I receive more details about the colorblind issue.

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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:30 am

I don't see the problem with the buildings. If you can look at the legend and not see the difference between a castle (blocky, probably four sided), a Hanseatic city (two or three large peaked roofs), and a town (three steeples), then I don't know what to tell you. Plus, the castles have one of two shields on them.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:37 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Map is too dark.


i can fix this.

Funkyterrance wrote: Some borders are invisible and some territory colors indistinguishable due to the high level of saturation of the darker colors.


Which borders, which colors? More details you give to me, more i can do to give you a better map.

Funkyterrance wrote:The buildings all look the same. Castles look like towns, towns look like cities, cities look like castles, etc..


I can change them, i think.

Funkyterrance wrote:It's a color-blind person's worst nightmare. Some of the zones are so close that I literally cannot tell which is which. The worst part is that the bonus situation entirely depends on your ability to have perfect color-vision. The key does not give any explanation beyond telling you what color=what bonus.


Again, which colors? all them...what is hard for you to see/distinguish?

I will work on an update as soon as I receive more details about the colorblind issue.


I have no problem giving more information. I just figured I would let me troubles be known and if you were interested in making changes, I would give more details. ;) Some people don't care what others think of their maps.

Ok, borders that are invisible:

Between Prussia, Pomesania, Marienburg. Only way I can make out the borders is if I turn all the lights out in my house and put my face very close to screen. I think this is just a result of the map being incredibly dark.

Color blind issues:

Western half of Prussia, Courland, Teutonic Order, Ducky of Samogitia, Bishop of Osef all look the same on the map and even more so on the key.
Duchy of Pomeralia and Papal Legatus look exactly the same color to me.

All of these issues could possibly be helped dramatically by simply lightening up the entire map a lot. Also, it's always nice to have the legend show where bonuses are without having to depend on color. A number of maps are set up like this and if I have a hard time seeing the colors I can at least have the legend to fall back on.

I am wondering why was the color scheme of the map changed from the version earlier in this thread? The early version the castles were very obvious to look at and the colors were easy to see as well and very attractive. The map was also very lighter and easier to read. Right now it looks like that American Civil War map which I played once and gave up since it's like looking for my car keys on the lawn at midnight.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:49 am

ender516 wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:Oh btw, I notice the territory "kuyavia" its troop count ends up slightly in the territory above it, is there a way to shift that a little? Minor thing, but wasn't sure if it would look better if shifted a tiny bit.
I think if you shifted it down, it might start running into the label "Kuyavia", which I think would be worse. Perhaps the artist could move the border slightly?


I will move the border on the small as soon as we take a decision for the large version. ;)

Funkyterrance wrote:Between Prussia, Pomesania, Marienburg. Only way I can make out the borders is if I turn all the lights out in my house and put my face very close to screen. I think this is just a result of the map being incredibly dark.


I suspect you have strange monitor settings...or (no offence O:) ) a very bad eyesight. I can distinguish the borders easily, all those you listed. Anyway the latest version is lighter than the previous one, so let me know how it looks for you.

Funkyterrance wrote:Western half of Prussia, Courland, Teutonic Order, Ducky of Samogitia, Bishop of Osef all look the same on the map and even more so on the key.
Duchy of Pomeralia and Papal Legatus look exactly the same color to me.


There are so many different forms of colorblind that it's hard to create something that is perfect for anyone. In any case I changed a bit also the colors.
Pomeralia is now white, the dark green zone is lighter, the same for courland. I changed a bit also papal legatus and sword of brethen. The legend is not updated so you can see the color difference. Again let me know if this one is better.

Click image to enlarge.
image


I post also two colorblind test for the new version:

show: colorblind test


P.s. I've also made less bold the territories font and I've decreased glow opacity on names...for some of them i changed also the color of the glow.

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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:19 am

I hope you managed all those changes without changing any coordinates, thenobodies80, or I might have to reach through the interwebs and strangle you. ;) Have a Happy New Year!
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:58 am

tnb80. can i ask what CB software you use and what gamma setting you have on it please.
Reason: i get quite different images with the visicheck i use at 240 gamma recommended.
Given that FT said he had difficulty with the key...why would you decrease glow opacity on names.
i have to admit that the bottom right legend is quite hard to read even for me. :)
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Pyrhhus on Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:22 pm

I dig the map but have one minor request. Could it be explicitly stated that cities and towns are needed for the land bonuses?

I know it's sorta inferred when you say castles aren't needed, and it becomes obvious if Gotland starts non-neutral, but I feel like needing extra stuff besides just the land territories is the exception rather than the rule, and thus worth noting.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:22 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image



This image looks a million times brighter than the map you play when you start a game.
I actually have very good vision, just colorblind. ;)

The colors on the legend are still very similar to me though on this version. The map is pretty much readable though. And to answer your earlier question, from what I understand I'm protanopic and partially deuteranopic.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby swimmerdude99 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:23 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image



This looks PHENOMENAL!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:26 pm

I agree it's much better, I can see the borders and the castles are distinguishable now. I still feel it could be quite a bit lighter though as a lot of the legend colors still look similar and the map still has a "shady" look that makes it not as visible as it could be for comfortable gameplay.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:35 pm

I really dig this map nobodies. But, for the life of me, I can not figure out the significance of the trade routes. As I recall the routes were once part of a bonus. But there's no indication that the bonus is still part of the map. Then it looked as if maybe they could be used to make cities border each other, but I can't find confirmation of this either.

If the answer is on the map, it needs to be in a more clear place.

If the answer is not on the map. Then it should be.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby HardAttack on Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:08 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I really dig this map nobodies. But, for the life of me, I can not figure out the significance of the trade routes. As I recall the routes were once part of a bonus. But there's no indication that the bonus is still part of the map. Then it looked as if maybe they could be used to make cities border each other, but I can't find confirmation of this either.

If the answer is on the map, it needs to be in a more clear place.

If the answer is not on the map. Then it should be.


Image

this above image is part of the map, bottom-right part, and in the bonus definitions part, last 2 lines.
gotland bonus is +1;
and if connected to one of three, danzig, konisberg or reval via a ship, then increases to +2
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby HardAttack on Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:08 pm

excellent map...good work.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:21 pm

ender516 wrote:I don't see the problem with the buildings. If you can look at the legend and not see the difference between a castle (blocky, probably four sided), a Hanseatic city (two or three large peaked roofs), and a town (three steeples), then I don't know what to tell you. Plus, the castles have one of two shields on them.

+1 There's no doubt the different types of buildings are in three clearly distinct styles.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby laughingcavalier on Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:34 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
ender516 wrote:I don't see the problem with the buildings. If you can look at the legend and not see the difference between a castle (blocky, probably four sided), a Hanseatic city (two or three large peaked roofs), and a town (three steeples), then I don't know what to tell you. Plus, the castles have one of two shields on them.

+1 There's no doubt the different types of buildings are in three clearly distinct styles.

I disagree - my only problem with the map is that playing on my mobile phone I couldn't tell the difference between castles and towns (though I could tell the difference when playing on my computer). The castles and towns are too similar to differentiate between them on a small low quality screen - the town's steeples simply disappear. I think they could be differentiated without radically changing the symbols, eg by giving the castle a bold outline.
Just finishing a few team games and I have really enjoyed playing this map - thanks for developing it. The gameplay is heavily oriented toward taking and holding bonuses, expecially the +3 castle bonus. At first I thought this was a problem, but came to see that is what gives the map its interest. It's like playing a conquest map like Feudal where the person who holds the most castles wins - but with the twist that you don't start in possession of the castles, and that the castles are key to moving around the map. Quite possibly the importance of the castles is historically accurate too.
The islands seem to be a bit of a backwater and the Gotland bonus very hard to break - you may want to consider reducing the ships from 3 neutrals to 2 so they are easier to take. Similarly you might want to differentiate between the castles and the towns because you get +3 drop in the former and +1 drop in the latter. YOu could reduce the towns to 2 neutral troops or increase the castles to 4 neutral troops. At the moment there is no real incentive to take the towns.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:01 pm

laughingcavalier wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
ender516 wrote:I don't see the problem with the buildings. If you can look at the legend and not see the difference between a castle (blocky, probably four sided), a Hanseatic city (two or three large peaked roofs), and a town (three steeples), then I don't know what to tell you. Plus, the castles have one of two shields on them.

+1 There's no doubt the different types of buildings are in three clearly distinct styles.

I disagree - my only problem with the map is that playing on my mobile phone I couldn't tell the difference between castles and towns (though I could tell the difference when playing on my computer). The castles and towns are too similar to differentiate between them on a small low quality screen - the town's steeples simply disappear. I think they could be differentiated without radically changing the symbols, eg by giving the castle a bold outline.

Well, in the past, I don't think much consideration was given to low-res or tiny screens, but if this is important to many CC members, the policy may need updating. I wonder what statistics and guidance the new administration can provide us in this matter. I will flag this for rdsrds2120's attention.
laughingcavalier wrote:Just finishing a few team games and I have really enjoyed playing this map - thanks for developing it. The gameplay is heavily oriented toward taking and holding bonuses, expecially the +3 castle bonus. At first I thought this was a problem, but came to see that is what gives the map its interest. It's like playing a conquest map like Feudal where the person who holds the most castles wins - but with the twist that you don't start in possession of the castles, and that the castles are key to moving around the map. Quite possibly the importance of the castles is historically accurate too.

Glad to hear that the map provides you with fresh interest in playing. That is key to maintaining and growing the player base, which is why new maps are made.
I believe historical accuracy was important to the original developer of the map, theBastard, who has withdrawn from CC. He had personal reasons (a hand injury limited his artwork and typing), but sadly, he also became frustrated with the Foundry and erased many of his posts.
laughingcavalier wrote:The islands seem to be a bit of a backwater and the Gotland bonus very hard to break - you may want to consider reducing the ships from 3 neutrals to 2 so they are easier to take. Similarly you might want to differentiate between the castles and the towns because you get +3 drop in the former and +1 drop in the latter. YOu could reduce the towns to 2 neutral troops or increase the castles to 4 neutral troops. At the moment there is no real incentive to take the towns.

I hope you have read the comments on bonuses starting at the top of page 55 from swimmerdude99, puppydog85, and Dukasaur. There are thoughts on both sides regarding neutrals, and clearly this is an open question still. The spreadsheet that I used to help me come up with the bonus values does not address the issue of the number of neutrals to use. I think reducing the town neutrals to 2 might be a good idea, but if they become too easy to get then players who drop the surrounding territories may get too much of an advantage. That might be correctable by making the surrounding territories starting positions to ensure a fairer drop. There are thirteen towns embedded in thirteen distinct areas, so there would always be at least one odd one left out. For this map, I don't know if I would want these starting positions to be underlying neutrals, as they would seal in a town and possibly partition the map. Of course, the underlying neutral could be a 1, which might make for some interesting land rushes.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Ugly_Moose on Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:07 pm

Great map
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby tkr4lf on Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:39 pm

I disagree with much of what has been posted in the past few pages. I think the map looks perfect the way it was when it was released to beta, but then again, I'm not colorblind. I guess it is best to make it CB friendly. Still though, I rather enjoy the darkness of the map. It has a nice aesthetic quality.

As for telling the cites, hanseatic cities and castles apart, I have no problems with it whatsoever. I see no reason to change it just to please people with a tiny screen.

Somebody posted something along the lines of seeing no reason to take the cities...I have to strongly disagree with that. The payback you get for letting it sit for a few turns more than makes up for what it cost to take the city. I'm playing in an 8 man standard game right now that I'm about to win due to all the auto's, not just castles (although those help much more than cities), but the cities as well. I love the strategy on this map and really hope you guys don't change it too much. The map is perfect as it is in my opinion.

Great job to all involved.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Gormbroc on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:34 am

Love the look of the map. On gameplay, I'm on my third flat spoils game, and it seems if you get a scattered drop you're pretty much cooked. You can say that about a lot of small to medium maps, but the 3 neutrals contribute to that.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby swimmerdude99 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:14 am

I am now completely satisfied with the map. Sadly it is not something I see as ideal for team play imo. But great for games especially involving trench. I really dig this map.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:02 pm

swimmerdude99 wrote:I am now completely satisfied with the map. Sadly it is not something I see as ideal for team play imo. But great for games especially involving trench. I really dig this map.

Foghorn Leghorn wrote:Dig? Trench? Pay attention, boy, you're making jokes and you don't even know it!
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Seriously, I am glad you like the map.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby doppelmonster on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:59 am

I just play this map for the first time. I like the gamplay a lot so far!

But it took me long to understand that you have to hold also cities and towns to get territtory bonus. I think it would be better to tell that over the territory bonus legend. Its only mentioned in the castle description and that sentence is weird as its puts together two very different things (not bonus part but water crossing).

I like to play and learn new concepts, but it took me to long to understand what is elementary in my opinion.

Otherwise this map will become one of my favorites!
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Oneyed on Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:29 am

it is maybe too late (I was not here when map was developed) but I think that notice in legend about Hanseatic cities and Towns that they ARE part of land bonuses will help.
also what about to add frame to bottom legends too? there is space, just move "2 Duchy of Estonia", "2 Bishropic of Osel, Wick and Dago" a little down.

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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby iancanton on Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:40 am

doppelmonster wrote:But it took me long to understand that you have to hold also cities and towns to get territtory bonus. I think it would be better to tell that over the territory bonus legend. Its only mentioned in the castle description and that sentence is weird as its puts together two very different things (not bonus part but water crossing).

Oneyed wrote:notice in legend about Hanseatic cities and Towns that they ARE part of land bonuses will help.

agreed. i had to look at previous games to find out that the towns and hanseatic cities are part of the bonus zones.

ian. :)
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Gillipig on Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:31 am

I've grown fond of this map. Fog goes natural with it which is something I like. I have to agree with what has been said though, the legend does little to hint that you need the cities to hold a territory bonus.
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