Classic Cities: Madrid [Quenched]

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12] Pg 1/12 Can we play now?

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:14 pm

Last Call

The map has passed through rigorous gameplay and graphics examinations and all major concerns have been addressed. If you have any other concerns, please make your voice heard. If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be stamped and submitted for the Beta period.

Please, post questions and concerns if any.

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12] Pg 1/12 Can we play now?

Postby ManBungalow on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:42 am

:-^.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12] Pg 1/12 Can we play now?

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:49 am

ManBungalow wrote::-^.

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12] Pg 1/12 Can we play now?

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:49 am

When images are shrunk to tiny sizes, you basically have two choices. If you try to be photorealistic, then yes it may look more professional but all the tiny details blend into a grey fuzz which really conveys nothing to the viewer, unless he's normally in the some area of forensics where blurry images are deconstructed for evidence. Or, you can go Impressionist route: isolate the most important idea and exaggerate it. That's what he's done here, and he's actually captured the feeling if Iberia very nicely.

If you don't like Manet, you won't like Koontz. And I'll be honest: hanging on a wall at the Met, I actually don't like Manet. But on this tiny screen, it works, and it works much better than a photorealistic treatment would.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:39 am

Dukasaur, thanks for the kind words.

Please, please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top, can we play this one now?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby x-raider on Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:27 pm

And I shall be the first to challenge you... amigo.

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby Gilligan on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:31 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Dukasaur, thanks for the kind words.

Please, please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top, can we play this one now?
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+1, been such a long time.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12] Pg 1/12 Can we play now?

Postby ManBungalow on Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:28 pm

Dukasaur wrote:When images are shrunk to tiny sizes, you basically have two choices. If you try to be photorealistic, then yes it may look more professional but all the tiny details blend into a grey fuzz which really conveys nothing to the viewer, unless he's normally in the some area of forensics where blurry images are deconstructed for evidence. Or, you can go Impressionist route: isolate the most important idea and exaggerate it. That's what he's done here, and he's actually captured the feeling if Iberia very nicely.

If you don't like Manet, you won't like Koontz. And I'll be honest: hanging on a wall at the Met, I actually don't like Manet. But on this tiny screen, it works, and it works much better than a photorealistic treatment would.

Yes, I understand that the trees (for instance) in the image are not supposed to look exactly like real trees, and that they still look like trees in a tree sort of way.

The problem, for me, is...everything else, really. I hate to say it really, because I can see that effort has been put into this.

But apparently it's not worth me posting any more of my concerns here.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:39 am

          Beta - Quenching

---The development period has concluded for the Classic Cities: Madrid Map. All objections have had their time. The Foundry and I hereby brand this map with the Foundry Beta Brand. Let it be known that this map is now ready for BETA Play. After an extended period of time in BETA and once all quirks and issues have been resolved, the map will be put into Full Play (barring any Admins or Foundry Foreman vetoes).

Conquer Club, enjoy!

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While the map is in BETA Play, there are a couple of administrative tasks that are required of the mapmaker(s) in addition to the initial gameplay testing:
    1. Please ensure that the first post of the thread contains all the necessary information to help future visitors to the development thread; it's particularly important to ensure the most recent images are there, along with any helpful guides (such as gameplay quirks/nuances or the location/size of any starting neutrals etc.)
    2. It is the responsibility of the mapmaker(s) to ensure that they respond to further feedback in a timely and constructive manner.
    3. Write a "creative" map description and send it to thenobodies80 via PM. You're encouraged to post it into the first post of the thread as well; the description will be used to populate the maps database.


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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:50 pm

It's live! :)

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:26 pm

This is playing not as I expected for 1v1 games. So far today in my games alone, I have dropped 3 bonuses, and even captured the whole of the centro region by taking one territ. In 1v1 games, players only have 6 regions and it is being decided by end of round 1.

Ideas to give a better game or is this what should be expected by a map of this size?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:29 pm

koontz1973 wrote:This is playing not as I expected for 1v1 games. So far today in my games alone, I have dropped 3 bonuses, and even captured the whole of the centro region by taking one territ. In 1v1 games, players only have 6 regions and it is being decided by end of round 1.

Ideas to give a better game or is this what should be expected by a map of this size?


I thought you addressed this specifically by the starting positions? Can you link some game numbers?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:41 pm

Game 12384170
Game 12384173

2 games with bonuses dropped. With the xml, 8 positions with a max of one given out and an underlying neutral of 2. This should of put the odds of a drop outside of the need to change range. But I have not played that many games today and it needs to change now. Only option I have to to code in neutrals which I hate so the question, ideas anyone?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:13 pm

I proposed in a game we just played that perhaps just lower all the 3 and 2 region bonuses to +1's.

What is the community's thoughts on that?
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:22 pm

Nole, agreed, will get maps and xml done first thing in the morning but will check here first to see if anyone has had any bright ideas.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby ManBungalow on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:55 pm

The green stuff in the background isn't complementary to the red/green troop numbers.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby ManBungalow on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:55 pm

Also, I dropped a bonus.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby macbone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:56 pm

Hey, koontz, I started a 6-player Term game on Madrid today.

I like the map, but it looks a little cluttered.

None of us dropped bonuses, though. =)
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:16 am

ManBungalow wrote:The green stuff in the background isn't complementary to the red/green troop numbers.

Already noted in a game played. Being sorted now.
macbone wrote:Hey, koontz, I started a 6-player Term game on Madrid today.

I like the map, but it looks a little cluttered.

None of us dropped bonuses, though. =)

Glad you like it but cluttered is what you get. It is a city after all. ;)
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [8/12]

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:56 am

Maps and xml.
All bonuses are now 1 apart from the two large ones. They stay. Neutrals that underlined the starting positions have been raised to a 3. Background green now lighter to allow green to be seen better. Will look into these issues later again when new files uploaded.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:14 am

I suggest to use army circles for this map.

About the bonus issue, let me look into it. I'll post a proposal asap. ;)

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:56 am

I'll give you a better explanation this evening, but the issue with this map imo are exactly the starting positions. Change the bonuses does nothing since if you drop it you still have an advantage.
In a 1vs1 game, if you're lucky enough to receive a 3 regions bonus sp at the drop (and it's not so hard on this map) you have a too high percentage to start with the whole bonus.

So, or you set at least 2 sp for all the 3 regions bonuses or you have to get rid of them at all.

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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:03 am

So keep the bonuses as they where. Might just be better remove all starting positions and to place a neutral into each bonus region (2/3 territs) and be done with it.
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:21 am

nobodies, going to keep the new bonuses. The size of map, given that a 2 bonus can be grabbed early, keeping it at a 1 might allow the game to go longer. Not sure on the army circles though, already been accused of making this one over the top.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2365/madridnew.png
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7128/madridsmall.png
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Re: Classic Cities: Madrid [20/2]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:27 am

Sorry but what does that change solves? changing the bonus you did nothing else that make the values ridicolous...no one will go for a bonus anymore in bigger games.
Sorry but i don't think this is a solution, maybe the easier way to go to have longer games, but definitively not a solution. You still have a map on which a player could start with an advantage.

A question did you run the prob tools and looked at the percentages? I have too, but as said I don't think they are bad without sp with 3 regions bonuses.
The only issue without sp is to not make possible to start with the 2 region bonus.
Gimme some hours....it's not hard to balance the drop without change the bonuses, I'll post my proposal this evening, then if you want to lower the bonuses anyway...then it's you map and I'll send the update. But i'm sure we can balance the drop without making the value of a 3 region+3 borders only +1. Com'on, you know that's a nonsense! :P

Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
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