[GP/UI]Automatically Award Spoils Even if a Player Times Out

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Automatically award a spoil to a player that takes a territory:

Never. Timing out to avoid getting a spoil is a valid strategy.
18
22%
Always. Any player that takes a territory in any game type should be awarded a spoil, even if he doesn't click "End Turn."
44
54%
For all games except speed and/or freestyle. It's a key part of the timing in those games and should be preserved.
19
23%
 
Total votes : 81

Postby mach on Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:47 pm

pancakemix wrote:Sometimes that can be used strategically, though. Ex: I have 1 card, green has 3, and I'm about to lose. I can choose to do as much damage as possible, but not end my turn, he only gets 4 cards, and can't trade.

Why do you care who wins if its not you?
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Postby Soloman on Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:32 pm

mach wrote:
pancakemix wrote:Sometimes that can be used strategically, though. Ex: I have 1 card, green has 3, and I'm about to lose. I can choose to do as much damage as possible, but not end my turn, he only gets 4 cards, and can't trade.

Why do you care who wins if its not you?


Unfortunately some people are really petty
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Postby SkyCaptain on Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:45 am

I agree with maniacmath.
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Postby Soloman on Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:17 am

So far enough to get it passed in congress agrees 75% lets see where the chips fall keep up the voting
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Postby Soloman on Thu May 03, 2007 8:33 am

bump
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Cards & Running out of time.

Postby jeffwell on Sun May 27, 2007 1:03 pm

I ran out of time on my turn as i forgot to move my troops. And as a result i didn't get a card for conquering a territory as i normally would have.

Suggestion
when time runs out on a turn
Check to see if the player should still get a card.
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Postby sfhbballnut on Sun May 27, 2007 7:34 pm

I believe that the card not being given is a necessary motivation for people to end there turns, it is incredibly annoying having someone sit there for an hour, apparently still taking there turn when they've left
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Postby State409c on Sun May 27, 2007 9:37 pm

I may get burned in a game I am currently playing in because of someone using this tactic in a bit of a different way. I was sitting on 5 cards about to cash for 25. The guy before me had just been smashed down to just a few countries and was about to be out of the game. He had 2 cards, and attacked and took 2 countries, then let his turn run out. I cashed my bonus and of course took him out. Had he received his third card, I would have been able to cash again, take out another player with 4 cards, cash, and take out the final player with 3 cards for the win.

Since that didn't happen, the game could play out any way from here depending on if the other 2 guys can cash on their next 2 turns. It's entirely if the next guy cashes, he can win the game by taking out the guy with 4 cards, then he'll turn towards me. That will be 65 armies this round to clear out my ~40.

Just a little annoying that I had another 5 player game wrapped up until this dude went and pulled a chump move with the cards.
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Postby trackersdream on Mon May 28, 2007 8:30 am

had to revive this with the other thread
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Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby rebelman on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:20 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:(Apologies if this has been submitted before. I looked and didn't see anything, but I may well have missed it.)
Concise description:
Eliminate the ability for a player to take his turn, capture or bombard a territory, then time out without being awards spoils. If a player times out on his turn, he will automatically be awarded any spoils he would have received if he ended his turn normally.
Alternatively, clarify that this is officially recognized as an acceptable and valid tactic on this site.

Specifics/Details:
In escalating and nuclear spoils games, some players will start their turns, capture territories (to break bonuses or interfere with opponents), then refuse to manually end their turns to avoid receiving spoils. This is widely considered to be cheap tactic and is now being penalized in clan tournaments. Dako was removed as head of CCup4, presumably due to refusal to include a rule allowing Clan Directors to enforce penalties for using this tactic. Evidently, multiple members of Team CC believe this should not be allowed.

There are times when people time out accidentally, due to connectivity problems or real-life interruptions. Unlike the case where they completely miss their turns, these individuals have started their turns, deployed troops, and engaged in one or more battles. For all intents and purposes, they have completed their turns, so it seems unnecessary to penalize them. On the other hand, a rule against timing out in clan play requires a subjective judgement about a player's intentions.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Automatically awarding spoils will eliminate a possible cheap strategy.
  • It will reduce the burden on clan directors, since they will no longer have to investigate timing-out complaints.
  • It will eliminate a need for a subjective judgement about a player's intentions.
  • In accidental cases, it will remove a penalty for currently incurred for accidental timing out due to real-life interference.
  • If this is considered an acceptable strategy by Conquer Club as a whole, an official statement to that effect would clarify the situation for everyone.


Compromise Proposal:
Automatically award spoils earned in all sequential games. Allow timing out without receiving spoils in freestyle games.

From the comments I've seen, it appears that the majority of the people that favor being able to avoid spoils do so in speed freestyle games. I don't like the idea of different rules between speed and casual games. However, freestyle already has different rules from sequential and allows for other types of tactics related to timing of turns. Also, freestyle games are not permitted in normal clan play, so this change would take care of all clan-related concerns about the rule.
Advantages
  • Clan players no longer have to worry about someone making a subjective judgement on motives when someone times out.
  • Speed freestylers keep their lost spoils penalties for those that delay too long.
  • The same rules apply in clan games and non clan games.
  • There are no rule differences between casual and speed games.
  • It becomes explicitly clear that timing out to avoid spoils is an accepted tactic in freestyle games (where precise timing of turns is already a key component of winning).
MOD EDIT: Copied OP
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Last edited by spiesr on Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Copied OP.
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Postby Strife on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:29 pm

I don't think this'll change. It's a strategy used by some. :wink:
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Postby Herakilla on Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:17 pm

thats a strategy and what about speed games? especially freestyle where people will purposely do that so they can go right away after time runs out again? you want them to get away with it AND get a card?
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:29 pm

It's been rejected before, not because of the 'Strategy' part, but due in case to if you received a card at the end of your turn, people might just be well inclined to let the time run out, wasting a good a hour or so of play time. By forcing you to click End Fortification, we ensure generally shorter round times.


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Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:47 pm

(Apologies if this has been submitted before. I looked and didn't see anything, but I may well have missed it.)
Concise description:
Eliminate the ability for a player to take his turn, capture or bombard a territory, then time out without being awards spoils. If a player times out on his turn, he will automatically be awarded any spoils he would have received if he ended his turn normally.
Alternatively, clarify that this is officially recognized as an acceptable and valid tactic on this site.

Specifics/Details:
In escalating and nuclear spoils games, some players will start their turns, capture territories (to break bonuses or interfere with opponents), then refuse to manually end their turns to avoid receiving spoils. This is widely considered to be cheap tactic and is now being penalized in clan tournaments. Dako was removed as head of CCup4, presumably due to refusal to include a rule allowing Clan Directors to enforce penalties for using this tactic. Evidently, multiple members of Team CC believe this should not be allowed.

There are times when people time out accidentally, due to connectivity problems or real-life interruptions. Unlike the case where they completely miss their turns, these individuals have started their turns, deployed troops, and engaged in one or more battles. For all intents and purposes, they have completed their turns, so it seems unnecessary to penalize them. On the other hand, a rule against timing out in clan play requires a subjective judgement about a player's intentions.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Automatically awarding spoils will eliminate a possible cheap strategy.
  • It will reduce the burden on clan directors, since they will no longer have to investigate timing-out complaints.
  • It will eliminate a need for a subjective judgement about a player's intentions.
  • In accidental cases, it will remove a penalty for currently incurred for accidental timing out due to real-life interference.
  • If this is considered an acceptable strategy by Conquer Club as a whole, an official statement to that effect would clarify the situation for everyone.


Compromise Proposal:
Automatically award spoils earned in all sequential games. Allow timing out without receiving spoils in freestyle games.

From the comments I've seen, it appears that the majority of the people that favor being able to avoid spoils do so in speed freestyle games. I don't like the idea of different rules between speed and casual games. However, freestyle already has different rules from sequential and allows for other types of tactics related to timing of turns. Also, freestyle games are not permitted in normal clan play, so this change would take care of all clan-related concerns about the rule.
Advantages
  • Clan players no longer have to worry about someone making a subjective judgement on motives when someone times out.
  • Speed freestylers keep their lost spoils penalties for those that delay too long.
  • The same rules apply in clan games and non clan games.
  • There are no rule differences between casual and speed games.
  • It becomes explicitly clear that timing out to avoid spoils is an accepted tactic in freestyle games (where precise timing of turns is already a key component of winning).
Last edited by Doc_Brown on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Vid_FISO on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:12 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:[*]If this is considered an acceptable strategy by Conquer Club as a whole, an official statement to that effect would clarify the situation for everyone.


And simply add an "end turn" button to officially legitimize the practice.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:14 pm

I fully support this. There is simply no good reason that I can think of not to enact this suggestion.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby HardAttack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:27 pm

nicely done docbrown,
good stuff, full support.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby jetsetwilly on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:35 pm

I completely support eliminating the ability for a player to take his turn, capture or bombard a territory, then time out without being awards spoils. If a player times out on his turn, he will automatically be awarded any spoils he would have received if he ended his turn normally :)
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Ace Rimmer on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:36 pm

Agreed, this is on par with the freestyle double turn issue that existed for years and the issue with team games with round limits going to the player with the most troops instead of the team. This was a decision made by lackattack that should be changed, because it is not in the spirit of competition and has the Clan Directors making subjective rules about whether or not someone intentionally missed a card vs lost connectivity.

HardAttack wrote:...lately we are shaping the gaming practice in two ways, that is rules for clan games and rules for other type of games...

^^^This is an issue. There should not be separate rules for clan games vs non-clan games. If there is a situation that a feature of the game mechanics causes things to be unfair for clan games, then it makes them unfair for other games, and should be fixed in all cases.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby IcePack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:44 pm

So if you are playing a 1 min freestyle esc game, and can't get your whole turn (assualt, reinforcement, end turn) in because of lack of time...is it going to reward your slow play with a card as well regardless of whether you were assualting still, reinforcing, etc?
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:50 pm

IcePack wrote:So if you are playing a 1 min freestyle esc game, and can't get your whole turn (assualt, reinforcement, end turn) in because of lack of time...is it going to reward your slow play with a card as well regardless of whether you were assualting still, reinforcing, etc?


Yes. The penalty for slow play is failure to get all your reinforcements to where you want them to go. I can understand there being some mild controversy on this point, but I think the benefits for all other game types strongly outweigh the drawbacks for this specific set of circumstances.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby HardAttack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:53 pm

jetsetwilly wrote:I completely support eliminating the ability for a player to take his turn, capture or bombard a territory, then time out without being awards spoils. If a player times out on his turn, he will automatically be awarded any spoils he would have received if he ended his turn normally :)


i dont support this idea, however i do the "IF THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN, THEN LETS HAVE IT BE SITE RULE" part.
i dont feel skipping card is cheap...

ace rimmer wrote:Conquering and timing out is a strategic option (the same as teammate killing, or trimming a stack without conquering, or starting a turn, dropping on a teammate, and not attacking).


+1

this is very well what i mean to say. Basically all are same...
We are all making suggestions time to time, offered trench warfare a while ago, new type of gaming, hey someone suggested nuclear spoils, another way of playing... And among all of these options, there is one, that is the skip the card option coming built in as an option for a player if he doesnt want to card it, then let him do...what is the big deal in it. As a player, in and while you make your move, you have to consider every single options, shouldd take all options and possibilities into your consideration, including what if my oppo misses a card intentionally or not. I believe increase the possibilities to make a game more complicated then this is very well boost in fun and skill. Why do you limit it ? This is not a good idea limitting it and even punishing players, forfeiting games and finally penalizing clans for it.

Please do not take this option away from my game, please do not limit my moves and strategy...
Ppl call it cheap tactic, but i feel and call it to be a very pure tactic, and only skilled players can make neccesary calls and calculations to give the right call and see the certain moves, then make the calls pick or not to pick a card when neccesary.

I dont know if i can express myself well here, but i try anyways.
Once again, intentionally skipping card is and should be a part of this game.
Carding is all the time to mean bonus, additional units, however sometimes there are moments not carding while keeping conquering is an option to do better for teams. Then why not ?
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:02 pm

I can clarify that currently, it is intentional that this tactic is allowed. We have discussed in the past whether we want to revisit this. The main argument, as IcePack points out, against the change in speed games is that it requires skill to be able to complete a turn on time, and this change would make it easier to play speed games because you wouldn't have to worry about ending your turn on time (obviously this has the biggest impact on freestyle). Doc's response is not really responsive because the reason why people wait out their turns is precisely because they want to be able to respond to everyone else's moves. If, as a result, no one gets to reinforce where they want, then everyone is on an even par. Still, it is not obvious to me that making speed freestyle games 'easier' in this respect is a bad thing; it might be good to add this safety in, as it would make it more possible for people with slower connections to compete (and might just increase new interest in freestyle in general). Nevertheless, we would certainly entertain a solution that made this change for all game types but speed freestyle.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Nicky15 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:08 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:[*]If this is considered an acceptable strategy by Conquer Club as a whole, an official statement to that effect would clarify the situation for everyone.


And simply add an "end turn" button to officially legitimize the practice.


If this is a practice endorsed by conquer club if it is deliberate in the game design, and if timing out your turn to not collect a card is officially not exploiting a loophole and is not cheap tactics, or perceived cheating, then please add an additional end turn button that perhaps says time out turn do not collect spoils.
Last edited by Nicky15 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby HardAttack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:08 pm

speed games, well yes have a very big bunch of additcts, but from the start point to now of this site never been the prior reason for a rule to be set. Like it is, "speed games" thought and meant to be a bonus game type/option given to premium members.
I liked and loved this approach, and still support it, that rules should focus on casual game exprience more than speed games.
This is what i think.
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Medals: 79
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (4)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (4) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (12) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (1)

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