[GP/UI]Automatically Award Spoils Even if a Player Times Out

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Automatically award a spoil to a player that takes a territory:

Never. Timing out to avoid getting a spoil is a valid strategy.
18
22%
Always. Any player that takes a territory in any game type should be awarded a spoil, even if he doesn't click "End Turn."
44
54%
For all games except speed and/or freestyle. It's a key part of the timing in those games and should be preserved.
19
23%
 
Total votes : 81

Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:13 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:I can clarify that currently, it is intentional that this tactic is allowed. We have discussed in the past whether we want to revisit this. The main argument, as IcePack points out, against the change in speed games is that it requires skill to be able to complete a turn on time, and this change would make it easier to play speed games because you wouldn't have to worry about ending your turn on time (obviously this has the biggest impact on freestyle). Doc's response is not really responsive because the reason why people wait out their turns is precisely because they want to be able to respond to everyone else's moves. If, as a result, no one gets to reinforce where they want, then everyone is on an even par. Still, it is not obvious to me that making speed freestyle games 'easier' in this respect is a bad thing; it might be good to add this safety in, as it would make it more possible for people with slower connections to compete (and might just increase new interest in freestyle in general). Nevertheless, we would certainly entertain a solution that made this change for all game types but speed freestyle.

The argument that players will have too much time to take their turns is a completely different subject. That seems more like a suggestion for still shorter turn limits(30 seconds?). The issue here is players deliberately letting their turn run out and wasting time right?
Like someone mentioned earlier, the only real solution seems to be having this rule be an option when you create a game.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:28 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I can clarify that currently, it is intentional that this tactic is allowed. We have discussed in the past whether we want to revisit this. The main argument, as IcePack points out, against the change in speed games is that it requires skill to be able to complete a turn on time, and this change would make it easier to play speed games because you wouldn't have to worry about ending your turn on time (obviously this has the biggest impact on freestyle). Doc's response is not really responsive because the reason why people wait out their turns is precisely because they want to be able to respond to everyone else's moves. If, as a result, no one gets to reinforce where they want, then everyone is on an even par. Still, it is not obvious to me that making speed freestyle games 'easier' in this respect is a bad thing; it might be good to add this safety in, as it would make it more possible for people with slower connections to compete (and might just increase new interest in freestyle in general). Nevertheless, we would certainly entertain a solution that made this change for all game types but speed freestyle.

The argument that players will have too much time to take their turns is a completely different subject. That seems more like a suggestion for still shorter turn limits(30 seconds?). The issue here is players deliberately letting their turn run out and wasting time right?


Yes, it's true that what Doc is trying to achieve is related to the latter issue, but I'm saying the two aren't disconnected, since there do exist speed freestyle games with more than 30 seconds. There is skill in being able to wait until the last few seconds of your turn, play your reinforcements correctly and then end your turn before time runs out to get a spoil. This would be erased with this change unless we turned the effect off for speed freestyle.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Ace Rimmer on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:49 pm

I would not have an issue with the rules being different for freestyle vs standard (and whether or not you include speed in that). Maybe all speed games you have to click end turn to get a spoil, standard games you do not. I think that is a well balanced approach that would fit the needs of two different groups of people (speed freestylers vs clan players) that have differing opinions.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby rdsrds2120 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:57 pm

As a speed freestyle player myself, I echo the concerns voiced by Metsfanmax. I've been contemplating this rule for about a week now and I arrived at the same conclusion that Ace has, which is to not change the rule for freestyle.

BMO
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Foxglove on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:44 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:As a speed freestyle player myself, I echo the concerns voiced by Metsfanmax. I've been contemplating this rule for about a week now and I arrived at the same conclusion that Ace has, which is to not change the rule for freestyle.

BMO


Is that your opinion as a player, or as an admin?

As an admin, do you acknowledge that the current behavior is intentional and as designed? Or that it's a bug that needs to be fixed?

A lot of the current clan discussion seems to have been predicated on the assumption that the behavior was a bug.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby ManBungalow on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:47 pm

I think taking/bombarding regions and not ending a turn is a legitimate tactic sometimes (especially in nuclear games), and not exclusively in speed games.

It's frowned up (particularly if a player makes a habit of it or it is outright irritating to another player), but still valid. The thing about perceived 'loopholes' such as this is that, if another player can exploit it, so can you.

And as already explored above, being punished for not ending soon enough by not gaining a card applies to freestyle speed games. I don't know if the game type is familiar to most people, but when every player in an 8-man freestyle escalating speed game has 5 cards in hand, it gets down to 10 seconds left in the forced-cash round when things start happening. It's a frantic rush to cash last, but also to end one's turn. Those who leave it too late/miscalculate may deploy the most troops, but miss out on a card. This is a nice quirk and I see no need to remove it.

And so, while I think this is a neat suggestion, I don't approve of it. Having it apply only to certain game types is a needless complication, and I don't think that players timing out and missing a card with 1 hour to take a turn is a commonplace problem.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby D4 Damager on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:14 pm

I completely support the OP's suggestion. I don't play or care about freestyle, so make a separate rule there if needs be, but in standard games it is stupid to allow people to avoid receiving a spoil if they timeout. I say stupid because the Instructions themselves say:

"You earn spoils at the end of every turn in which you successfully conquer a region, just like reality!"

Unless you want to argue that a turn that timed out did not end (which is also stupid, the turn has ended but before the player has had a chance to complete their intended actions) then what's happening in games at the moment simply does not match the site's own description.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby D4 Damager on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:26 pm

ManBungalow wrote:I think taking/bombarding regions and not ending a turn is a legitimate tactic sometimes (especially in nuclear games), and not exclusively in speed games..

This is self-evidently true - while the site allows no spoils when timing out, then people can and will exploit it. The question is: SHOULD it be a legitimate tactic?

The problem is that you have two sets of players; one set that try to play by the rules as intended (and described in the Instructions) and another that gain advantage from the loophole. That's why the site should explicitly back one or the other way of doing things, so there is no difference of expectation from players and therefore no unfair advantage.

ManBungalow wrote:I don't think that players timing out and missing a card with 1 hour to take a turn is a commonplace problem.
Maybe not commonplace but I timed out in a game a few days ago after making an attack because I got pulled away. I would really have appreciated getting the spoil, given that I had made the attack for that reason. Perhaps that's my fault for playing CC at work though! ;-)
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby mc05025 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:45 pm

I do not like that. Giving the opportunity toa player to decide if he should take a card or not makes the game more complicated. Deciding if you should take a card or not is not easy in many cases. I suppport any feature that makes the game more complicated and more intresting.

So I support more the idea of making a small button saying 'end turn without taking a spoil' (you will have to lose your reinforcement too if you chose that way to end your turn.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:51 pm

The point has been made before, and needs to be made here: consider what this would mean in real life. If you were playing the board game at the kitchen table, and someone finished his turn but forgot to take a card, would that stand? Or would you grab a card and hand it to him? I think the not-taking-spoil thing is an exploit. Granted it's an exploit the site has tolerated, but it's still not a genuine "strategy".
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Bones2484 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:01 pm

Dukasaur wrote:The point has been made before, and needs to be made here: consider what this would mean in real life. If you were playing the board game at the kitchen table, and someone finished his turn but forgot to take a card, would that stand? Or would you grab a card and hand it to him? I think the not-taking-spoil thing is an exploit. Granted it's an exploit the site has tolerated, but it's still not a genuine "strategy".


The better question is: If someone finished his turn and refused to take a card, would that stand?

Agreed with the rest of your post, though. Well put.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby hotfire on Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:11 pm

losing a game because u ran out of time and didnt get a card in a sequential escalating speed game is a bummer....i support this feature
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby ahunda on Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:12 pm

I understand, that not getting a card when running out of time adds to the skill & tension in Speed/FS games, but it serves no purpose at all in casual games.

I want to quote an analogy someone used in an older thread concerning this issue:

Imagine a couple of people sitting at a table, playing the board game.

Player A (rolls the dice, conquers a terr, hands the dice to Player B): I´m done. Your turn.
Player B: You need to take a card.
Player A: No, I skip the card.
Player B: lolwot ?

To me, it´s as simple as that. It´s, what the rules say & how the original game is supposed to work: If you conquer a terr, you get a card. If you are in a situation, where you don´t want another card, don´t conquer a terr. That is the true strategic choice, that is within the game rules. Intentionally timing out to skip the card is exploiting a loophole in the CC system.

Now in the old days this wasn´t such a big issue, because generally ending your turn, using your fort & getting a card was to your own advantage. Situations in Esc games, where running out of time to skip the card can be advantageous, are rare. Thus the loophole was seldom exploited.

Then came along the Nuclear cards, where skipping cards can be very advantageous indeed, and so the practice became epidemic in that game type.

I think, when Nuclear cards were first suggested, the problem of holding cards for your own terrs was seen as a particularly challenging/interesting aspect of the game type, that would require new approaches & strategies, forcing players to move stacks so they wouldn´t nuke themselves, etc. This entire idea has widely been circumvented by simply not taking cards anymore, when in danger of having to hit your own terrs.

I seriously doubt, that this was the idea & intention behind Nuclear cards, when they were originally suggested & discussed. And I fail to see, what this has to do with advanced strategy.

EDIT: Fastposted by Dukasaur, who used the same RL Risk analogy ...
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby D4 Damager on Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:35 pm

The good thing is: everybody agrees that whatever system is used, it should be explicit. So perhaps the best and easiest alternative would be to have it as a game option? That way, both ways are possible while nobody is caught unawares by unexpected behaviour
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:14 pm

mc05025 wrote:I do not like that. Giving the opportunity toa player to decide if he should take a card or not makes the game more complicated. Deciding if you should take a card or not is not easy in many cases. I suppport any feature that makes the game more complicated and more intresting.


Would you support a feature that required you to solve a math problem correctly before initiating an assault? Not all complications to the game are desirable simply because they make the game more complicated, nor is it the case that giving people more options is always a good thing. There needs to be a better argument for this than simply that "it gives people more options." There are myriad ways to do that. We want to retain only the ones that truly add fun gameplay that is challenging in a non-trivial way, while retaining an element of fairness and preventing abuse.
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