Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:09 pm

Hmm, Rodion, I know you aren't a native speaker of English, so perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

You've watched = Past Tense
Trying to Live = Present Tense

I'll break it down in more detail:

Let's take the words watch & live. Here is a list of some of the tenses.

simple past: watched & lived
past perfect: had watched & had lived
past progressive: was/were watching & was/were living
past perfect progressive: had been watching & had been living

simple present: watch/watches & live/lives
present perfect: has watched & has lived
present progressive: is/am watching & is/am living
present perfect progressive: have been watching & have been living


Now, I didn't mean for this post to be a grammar exercise, but what I'm trying to say is:


No, it's not the same Rodion. You have to watch the tenses. If my role pm had said, "were living," it would mean that I was living in the past- alluding that I am now dead. "Trying to live," implies present/current/right now. It is the present progressive tense to be most specific.

That role pm says Jack the Vigilante "had watched." I think that's past perfect tense. So of course it is not implying that Jack is a watcher- that's just crazy! "Had watched," does not equal watcher. It's not even remotely the same vocabulary! Watcher is a title- specifically referring to a role in a mafia game. The word "watched," can mean anything, depending on the sentence.
So come on now, no logical person with even a small grasp of English vocab/grammar is going to deduce "had watched" to equal "Watcher." That's just silly!

Thus my role pm clearly stated that I was alive!

And aage, I understand the confusion. I just keep things a whole lot more simple than most. I don't go into all the meta stuff- I just say it how it is. You see, I wasn't actually responding to any meta at any point in the game. I was simply claiming- that is all. I was asked to claim my role at least three times throughout the game. When Rodion asked me to give a full claim on Day 9, I did so.

But yes, I agree that we can just bury it for now.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby Rodion on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:05 pm

You missed the point. The issue is not verbal tenses, but taking an useless flavour piece from your role PM and misleading everyone. It should be obvious that the "trying to live life" bit of your PM was just for flavour, but you managed to make the point that your saint was alive when all catholic saints are, by definition, dead. The expectation was that you were either the Pope or some other really good-hearted contemporary human being, not some lady who died more than 500 years ago.

After you fully claimed and I went back to reading every post of yours to see whether the claim was compatible to the way you had been playing (something I always do as it may help see through a fakeclaim), I noticed the contradiction. Sucks that you had to feel threatened and vote me, but I'm not going to let something as fishy as your claim fly just because I had someone else higher in my suspicion list (do notice that nothing kept me from asking multiple questions to multiple people simulteaneously - the fact I asked you a question did not stop me from also interrogating PCM, which I did).

Not sure if you'll understand, so I'll agree with the recommendation that you bury it.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby aage on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:29 pm

VioIet wrote:Hmm, Rodion, I know you aren't a native speaker of English, so perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

No offense but now you're just being spiteful.

Rodion wrote:You're Jack, town vigilante. You watch the world succumb in chaos and you can no longer stand it. You decided to take it upon yourself to cleanse humanity of all evil.

Since, to my knowledge, everyone was confused by your claim, you also seem to be suggesting that all the players in this game must be non native speakers, or just suck at their mother tongue, while all that happened was that you just focussed on trivial details in your role pm that had nothing to do with the game. You ignore meta but do choose to go into the flavour of your pm? That is simply hypocritical. But I am also on the verge of being spiteful so I will stop this battle of having the last word now.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm

Rodion wrote:You missed the point. The issue is not verbal tenses, but taking an useless flavour piece from your role PM and misleading everyone.


That's just the thing. I wasn't taking flavor whatsoever. I don't even think there was enough in the role pm to be flavor. It was quite bare bones, imo. I just read word for word what the role pm said, no more, no less. I didn't mislead anyone- I was 100% honest about my claim.


However, I was bothered when I was accused of lying/misleading. Someone having a misunderstanding is not the same as me lying or being misleading. There are some games that I definitely do lie, as it's part of playing mafia. This was one of the few games that I actually did not lie for once- so it's kinda annoying that I'm being accused of that. Or of purposely misleading the town. I didn't actually see many up in arms about my claim, unless they choose not to say anything about it at the time.


Rodion wrote: It should be obvious that the "trying to live life" bit of your PM was just for flavour, but you managed to make the point that your saint was alive when all catholic saints are, by definition, dead. The expectation was that you were either the Pope or some other really good-hearted contemporary human being, not some lady who died more than 500 years ago.


Well that was definitely the wrong expectation- I don't know how you even deduce that. As I've said many many times before- it's a game not real life. Who cares about sainthood, Catholicism, the Pope or how whatever works in real life. I'm simply talking about the game and nothing beyond. I don't care about the real life definition of a saint. I only care about the definition of a saint within the context of the game.

The part of my role pm that said "trying to live life," was not flavor to me, but an explanation of my role. From my understanding, we had angels and demons (dead), and humans (alive). I was a human, and saint was just the type of human I was. It would've been incorrect to say that I was dead, when I wasn't.

Rodion wrote:After you fully claimed and I went back to reading every post of yours to see whether the claim was compatible to the way you had been playing (something I always do as it may help see through a fakeclaim), I noticed the contradiction. Sucks that you had to feel threatened and vote me, but I'm not going to let something as fishy as your claim fly just because I had someone else higher in my suspicion list (do notice that nothing kept me from asking multiple questions to multiple people simulteaneously - the fact I asked you a question did not stop me from also interrogating PCM, which I did).


What contradiction did you notice? As yes, quite funny that my claim was "fishy" as it was pretty much as word-for-word as could be possible without directly quoting. I still don't get why something so trivial as me being alive is so important to you. Or why you feel that elements in the game need to be the exact way as they are in real life. I thought the whole point of creating a game was so that you could have your characters do whatever they wanted in that alternate universe you created for the context of the game. It doesn't have to go by real life rules.

Rodion wrote:Not sure if you'll understand, so I'll agree with the recommendation that you bury it.


No, I definitely do not understand your line of view, as you don't understand mind. From my perspective you are taking all these non-game elements and using them to analyze the game and you're looking for stuff that's not there. I think that just results in making things complicated and confusing when they shouldn't be. We are just thinking completely differently about it. So at this point, we'll just agree to disagree.


aage wrote:
VioIet wrote:Hmm, Rodion, I know you aren't a native speaker of English, so perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

No offense but now you're just being spiteful.


None taken. But I guess just equally as spiteful as someone telling me that I would think "had watched," equals "Watcher." :roll:


aage wrote:Since, to my knowledge, everyone was confused by your claim, you also seem to be suggesting that all the players in this game must be non native speakers, or just suck at their mother tongue


Well those are your words, not mine. But yes, that would be unfortunate if so. I've always been big on wording, and normally seem to think others are likewise. But I guess not.

aage wrote:While all that happened was that you just focussed on trivial details in your role pm that had nothing to do with the game. You ignore meta but do choose to go into the flavour of your pm? That is simply hypocritical.


With all due respect, I honestly don't think I was the one who focused on such a trivial detail. Not to begin with, that is. It was after I claimed, that someone else seemed to focus too much on me saying that I was alive. Something like that would've never bothered me in the first place, honestly.

I never thought me saying "I'm still alive," would be such a friggin big deal.

I still don't regret it, since it's true! I stand behind everything I've said so far. And again, I understand that we disagree and we can just leave it at that.



aage wrote:But I am also on the verge of being spiteful so I will stop this battle of having the last word now.



Be as spiteful as you want, I don't give a care. Just depends on how much you think it's worth it to be spiteful over a disagreement about a trivial game detail. Suit yourself.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby safariguy5 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:02 am

To perhaps steer this discussion a bit more into the realm of mafia and less on grammar, I'm a bit curious as to why Vio didn't look up her role? I'm not a Catholic, but I daresay that many Catholics aren't familiar with all the saints. I mean, I didn't even know that Raguel was an archangel, but I did look it up after the claim. And if you yourself do not take the time to check the flavor of your role, then when someone else cites outside sources, surely it wouldn't hurt to at least affirm or deny the information provided by someone else.

Part of this has to do with find out fakeclaims. We know that mafia may have to fakeclaim from time to time, and if roleflavor does not support the claim well, then that may be a hint that the person is faking. I have to say that I didn't initially see too much with Vio's claim, but the defensive nature of her response and apparent complete unwillingness to accept any outside attempts at clarification made me think twice. If it weren't for the earlier innocent result and the fact that I thought we had better leads, I might have believed she was faking. So in conclusion Vio, I think that your initial claim may have been a poor choice of wording, but you compounded the issue by the subsequent defense and failure to do a little research into your own role to provide some substance/rationale.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:12 am

safariguy5 wrote:To perhaps steer this discussion a bit more into the realm of mafia and less on grammar, I'm a bit curious as to why Vio didn't look up her role?


I never look anything up. I don't care. This is actually one reason why I tend to avoid theme based games. I totally suck at them, especially when I can't follow the flavor/history/details. I did want to participate in this one because I like edoc as a mod, and I wanted to participate in the entire series. But normally, I join the "typical" games, where outside reasoning doesn't come into play. Because honestly, I don't really feel that it should. Just not my style.

safariguy5 wrote:And if you yourself do not take the time to check the flavor of your role, then when someone else cites outside sources, surely it wouldn't hurt to at least affirm or deny the information provided by someone else.


The thing is that any information does not change my alignment. According to my role pm, I am either town or mafia or third faction, or whatever. No outside source is going to change the role that I was given.

Whatever Rodion found out wiki did not change the fact that I was a saint and alive. Like I said, outside sources can throw you off if the games isn't exactly going by those outsides sources.

In the games I have modded in the past, my character roles have sometimes been a direct contradiction of "outside sources." I think Clue Mafia was a great example of this. For example, someone who was a villain in the movie might have been Town in the game. Someone who was good in the book, might have been Mafia in the game. A NRPC (non-role playing character) might have a large role in the game, or a main character might be an NRPC in the game. I like to mix things up.

safariguy5 wrote:Part of this has to do with find out fakeclaims. We know that mafia may have to fakeclaim from time to time, and if roleflavor does not support the claim well, then that may be a hint that the person is faking.


I agree that research can be useful with fakeclaims, and that is the only time that I am remotely interested in looking at outside sources. I think because I was town and because I knew I was town, I wasn't too concerned with fakeclaims. I'm usually only concerned with fakeclaims when I'm mafia.

I just don't tend to use outside information to determine who is scummy or not. I base it on their actions within the game. To be honest, I think that is the best and most fair way. This might be why some people criticize too much meta-gaming.

safariguy5 wrote:I have to say that I didn't initially see too much with Vio's claim, but the defensive nature of her response and apparent complete unwillingness to accept any outside attempts at clarification made me think twice.


If I know my role, then I know it. Period. I don't care what Rodion or Wiki says. Wiki could say, hypothetically, that Saint Catherine was really some twisted demon. However, it doesn't change that my role pm said living saint. If a situation like that occurred, what could I possibly say in defense? I had to defend against something that wiki said when my role pm says something different? How is that even fair?

safariguy5 wrote:If it weren't for the earlier innocent result and the fact that I thought we had better leads, I might have believed she was faking.


That's how mafia goes sometimes. It is not the first time that I've been 100% honest about my claim but have still not been believed. I've been lynched as town before and I've been lynched as mafia before, so I know it happens. All I can do is try my best, but I can't control if I will always be 100% believed. I was honest with the claim, but if it came across as scummy- oh well. I can't say much about that. It appears that if I had lied, then I might have been better believed. However, it is my impression that very few really actually thought I was scum at the end of the game.

safariguy5 wrote:So in conclusion Vio, I think that your initial claim may have been a poor choice of wording


I really don't get what you think I should have said differently. I think my choice of words were straight to the point, as they should have been. "Saint, alive, doctor..." How else could I have claimed?

safariguy5 wrote:but you compounded the issue by the subsequent defense and failure to do a little research into your own role to provide some substance/rationale.


If I believe something to be true, I will defend it to death. I won't give in just because it doesn't "sound right," to someone else. Truth is truth. I need to have a really good reason to do research, as I prefer to go by the information provided within the context of the game. I don't always know what the mod had in mind, so it's all speculation. Also, as I stated above, if wiki or another outside source contradicts what my role pm said, then there is really nothing I can say. I'm just not that creative about coming up with "excuses." I won't even try (unless I'm scum). Perhaps that is my mafia shortcoming, but I am just not creative. Thus, I take a much simpler approach to my games.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby aage on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:30 am

If you don't care, then I...
VioIet wrote:If I know my role, then I know it. Period. I don't care what Rodion or Wiki says.
I agree that your zealous adherence to truthfulness about your role would mean that you don't care about wiki. However, if for example someone claimed to be Archangel George W. Bush (or Archangel Barack Obama, if you think I'm trying to bring politics into it which I am not, sake of example), would you let them live? Archangel Daniel Tosh? Archangel Brad Pitt? Of course not. The flavour does not fit the theme. This is because flavour is important in flavoured games, it is there for a reason. You elect to ignore this while the rest of the players (the rest of TOWN) actually thinks it's significant. In my experience it is simply stupid to ignore anything the town has to bring to the table on the matter and stubbornly continue down your own narrow-minded path. If I had claimed to be Baal, archdemon town vigilante, and discarded any accusations "because that's what's in my role pm", how long do you think I would have lived?

VioIet wrote:Wiki could say, hypothetically, that Saint Catherine was really some twisted demon. However, it doesn't change that my role pm said living saint. If a situation like that occurred, what could I possibly say in defense?
Nothing, because you would be absolutely barking mad to actually claim that role. If someone claims to be the known antagonist in a themed game, obviously he is going to get lynched. Roles have names for a reason, that is why theme games usually end up in massclaims to root out the most obvious scum.
VioIet wrote:I had to defend against something that wiki said when my role pm says something different?
...your role pm never contradicted wiki... In the flavour of the game, yes, obviously the character "Catherine of blablabla" is alive. However, the actual Catherine of Blablabla is dead, which was what we were talking about at the time
You display a very high capability of thinking inside the box.
VioIet wrote:How is that even fair?
When is Mafia ever? Fairness has nothing to do with it.


Let's grab your original post.
It is to my understanding that Saints can be classified as humans in this game. My character is still alive- meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.
My character is still alive- meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.
meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.
I'm not the type of Saint who has already died


wikipedia wrote:[Catherine] died in [Genoa] in 1510.
I am sure you of all people will enjoy the dramatic effect.


VioIet wrote:This is actually one reason why I tend to avoid theme based games. I totally suck at them, especially because I can't be bothered to read wikipedia
If you admit you suck at them, why do you still believe you said nothing out of place or confusing?


Now don't get me wrong, I don't care either. You could have gotten yourself lynched over this and I would have laughed, pleased. But you're hurting your own faction with stuff like this.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby edocsil on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:46 am

Alright, that's enough now. Let's shelve this game.
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