Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Housing completed games. Come take a walk through a history of suspicion!

Moderators: Community Team, Global Moderators

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby strike wolf on Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:03 pm

I thought we would have been close to winning by then and we only needed to couple days to buy. It was never meant to be a claim that lasted more than a couple days but then Sound got lynched and things didn't really turn out that way and I kept BSing and BSing lol and somehow I managed not to get lynched. It was risky but I felt confident that I could pull it off for a limited amount of time. I thought being forthcoming with my actions (without pressure) would buy some town credibility at the risk of getting myself caught in a lie. A gamble of course but I felt I knew who was a likely N1 watch and we knew who was watched N2. I delayed releasing info on N3 of course, I felt I could get by on the excuse that it was recent enough that saying I wanted to withhold and possibly reveal someone in a lie later.

I definitely took some risks in this game. Pointing fingers at Aage in an attempt to delay jak and Vodean's lynches. Didn't work out. Busdriver claim...worked out well enough. Pushed for a couple questionable lynches (turning town's attention away from doom on Day 9 though that didn't work and nudged the idea on JG though didn't follow through but I felt I also played it safe in many situations. I bided my time for most of the first three days.

Honestly, I don't think any of us like to address it but a lot of what F1fth said is right...I may add a topic in discussions regarding inactive players.

As far as the execution, I used it as soon as F1fth voted and I got the chance to follow up but Edoc initially hadn't noticed Jak's vote in thread so it was delayed.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.
User avatar
Cadet strike wolf
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 8056
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Sandy Springs, GA (just north of Atlanta)
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (3) General Contribution (6)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby edocsil on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:18 pm

strike wolf wrote: As far as the execution, I used it as soon as F1fth voted and I got the chance to follow up but Edoc initially hadn't noticed Jak's vote in thread so it was delayed.


Yeah. it was only half red, and the "vote" part wasn't colored or anything so I totally missed it.

Fifth, I agree on many of your points. This game would have been so different if there had another 6 active players at the start. However, as for chap the scum weren't going to target him, not with that obvious of a scene. He had nothing left to bring to the table with his faked claim, and he was just drawing town protective actions like mad. If the scum had started pegging angels then the town would have been toast.
Edoc'sil

Commander9 wrote:Trust Edoc, as I know he's VERY good.

zimmah wrote:Mind like a brick.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class edocsil
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:09 am
Location: The Great State Of Minnesota
Medals: 10
Standard Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (3) Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby jak111 on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:29 pm

edocsil wrote:Yeah. it was only half red, and the "vote" part wasn't colored or anything so I totally missed it.


I just went back to re-read that :oops: I thought I had it all highlighted before clicking red from the colour codes :P
Highest Rank:
Major:2157

"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers"

Jak Eliminator: Prison Riot [0/16] *Sign Ups*
User avatar
Private 1st Class jak111
 
Posts: 303
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:24 pm
Location: At your deathbed.
Medals: 24
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (5) Challenge Achievement (1)
Tournament Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:43 pm

jak111 wrote: I was surprised to see Violet vote for Rodion though, I thought we would have all had to be out to get a lynch.


Well he said that I was lying when I obviously wasn't, and it just came across as really scummy that he would try to draw attention to me when I thought pcm was more of an issue. I just feel my role really should've been obvious at that point. And since Jak had already voted him, I thought it would be an easy lynch. I had no idea we were in a Lylo situation. I thought their were two mafia amongst us at best- not three. Strike was the one that really had me fooled- I was onto jak and pcm already.

I figured two mafia were left. But when pcm said that he was a role-gifter, and I knew I had been gifted by him, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. So I thought the final two were then Jak and Rodion. But I was wrong.
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
Violet: oh, what big news?
Bruceswar: I am leaving KORT to go to RA


Image
Major VioIet
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:18 am
Medals: 55
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (8) Tournament Contribution (2)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby safariguy5 on Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:32 pm

Man, I really thought we only had one demon left. I could have vigged jak, but I thought that subverted saints didn't count against the endgame limit given that my WC didn't need me to kill them. If we had lived another day, I would have given jak the chance to jump ship and win with town.
Image
User avatar
Captain safariguy5
 
Posts: 1894
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:42 pm
Location: California
Medals: 69
Conquer Cup Silver Achievement (1) Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3)
Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (13) Tournament Contribution (6)
General Contribution (8)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby strike wolf on Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:48 pm

Jak couldnt win with town. Technically only mafia did count against you but it was 3 v 3 and double voter on our side. Me and PCM had made it abundantly clear that we would simply force your lynch as town couldnt force one and edoc decided to end the game early.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.
User avatar
Cadet strike wolf
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 8056
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Sandy Springs, GA (just north of Atlanta)
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (3) General Contribution (6)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby Rodion on Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:54 am

VioIet wrote:
jak111 wrote: I was surprised to see Violet vote for Rodion though, I thought we would have all had to be out to get a lynch.


Well he said that I was lying when I obviously wasn't,


Except that you did lie (I still do not understand why you said your saint was alive). It's not even like I was threatening you, as I was holding my vote until I felt 100% certain of the path to take. I reckon you could have gotten out of that situation by simply admitting you screwed up. PCM, on the other hand, had some serious explaining to do on why he'd given Yoshi a cop gift after Yoshi fakeclaimed angel. Unfortunately, CC's bad habit of voting too soon did not allow me to continue my inquiry. :cry:
Image
User avatar
Brigadier Rodion
 
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Medals: 83
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (27) General Achievement (9) Clan Achievement (14) Tournament Contribution (3)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby strike wolf on Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:57 am

Rodion wrote:
VioIet wrote:
jak111 wrote: I was surprised to see Violet vote for Rodion though, I thought we would have all had to be out to get a lynch.


Well he said that I was lying when I obviously wasn't,


Except that you did lie (I still do not understand why you said your saint was alive). It's not even like I was threatening you, as I was holding my vote until I felt 100% certain of the path to take. I reckon you could have gotten out of that situation by simply admitting you screwed up. PCM, on the other hand, had some serious explaining to do on why he'd given Yoshi a cop gift after Yoshi fakeclaimed angel. Unfortunately, CC's bad habit of voting too soon did not allow me to continue my inquiry. :cry:


Honestly I think you were being a bit harsh on both of those accounts. There were multiple fake angel claims in the game and they all turned out to be misguided saints and whether Vio's saint was alive or not was a rather trivial detail from my point of view.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.
User avatar
Cadet strike wolf
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 8056
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Sandy Springs, GA (just north of Atlanta)
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (3) General Contribution (6)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby aage on Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:36 am

strike wolf wrote:Jak couldnt win with town. Technically only mafia did count against you but it was 3 v 3 and double voter on our side. Me and PCM had made it abundantly clear that we would simply force your lynch as town couldnt force one and edoc decided to end the game early.

You had a double voter and an executioner. You could have forced a lynch if there were 9 people alive. :p
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class aage
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:23 pm
Medals: 5
Standard Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:47 am

I still don't understand why Rodion considered my play to be trying to buy the mafia time. I wasn't recruited yet at that point.

Also, I'm totally surprised droz was town. It became more obvious later on, but I would've bet that he was scum.
show
User avatar
Sergeant DoomYoshi
Entertainment Coordinator
Entertainment Coordinator
 
Posts: 4088
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Termina Field
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (8) Clan Achievement (16)
Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (5)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby Rodion on Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:04 pm

Strike, I never said it wasn't trivial (remember I never voted or suggested we lynch Violet), but it had to be asked nonetheless as it could indicate a fakeclaim.

DoomYoshi wrote:Sry 4 double:

Yesterday I softclaimed angel. Rodion can investigate me and I can't claim to be human. That will verify me 100%


DoomYoshi wrote:Ok, I'm not an angel lmao. I am Brigit of Kildare, a saint.


Fakeclaim shown above.

To be totally honest, though, I was working under the influence of the wrong night scene (the one that implied there were 7 angels, not 8 ). Since there were 5 angels out in the open, I had found / as the 6th and I was the 7th, I "knew" you couldn't possibly be an angel. That's mainly what made me unmask you.
Image
User avatar
Brigadier Rodion
 
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Medals: 83
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (27) General Achievement (9) Clan Achievement (14) Tournament Contribution (3)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:31 am

Rodion wrote:
VioIet wrote:
jak111 wrote: I was surprised to see Violet vote for Rodion though, I thought we would have all had to be out to get a lynch.


Well he said that I was lying when I obviously wasn't,


Except that you did lie (I still do not understand why you said your saint was alive).


Wow Rodion, I still don't get you. And no, I didn't screw up when claiming. I think you just thought too hard about it when nothing was there. Here is my role pm:

edocsil wrote:You are Catherine of Genoa, you are a simple saint trying to live life by your ideals and your faith.

You are a Backup Doc. You will become a full doc if Avitus of Vienne, the Doctor, dies.

To win all the Demons must be dead.

Confirm in the game thread, and PM me if you have any questions.


So yes my Saint was still alive as I said. It was you who said/thought/believed my saint to be dead for whatever reason. I remember you bringing up a point about 1512, which didn't even make sense, as it's 2013. All of the characters would be dead, if you think about it like that.

This was a game. It is not real. It's not real life! It's a game! Edoc has the right to bring up characters from all different time periods and put them all in the same universe/world/game if he chooses. You can't let details like that throw you off from the flow of the game.


Rodion wrote:It's not even like I was threatening you


I don't even know why you brought up a non-issue in the first place. If you were more concerned about pcm at the time, then that is who you should've inquired about.


Anyway, I'm not trying to be too critical of you Rodion as I think you played well and almost single-highhandedly kept the game active at certain points. But from my point of view, you being unrealistically picky about my role-claim, when I felt there were bigger issues at the time seemed to be scummy. That's why I voted you. I was wrong as well, I can admit that. But wrong about voting you, not wrong about my claim. That was 100% honest at all times.
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
Violet: oh, what big news?
Bruceswar: I am leaving KORT to go to RA


Image
Major VioIet
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:18 am
Medals: 55
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (8) Tournament Contribution (2)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby aage on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:41 am

VioIet wrote:Wow Rodion, I still don't get you. And no, I didn't screw up when claiming. I think you just thought too hard about it when nothing was there. Here is my role pm:

edocsil wrote:You are Catherine of Genoa, you are a simple saint trying to live life by your ideals and your faith.

You are a Backup Doc. You will become a full doc if Avitus of Vienne, the Doctor, dies.

To win all the Demons must be dead.

Confirm in the game thread, and PM me if you have any questions.


So yes my Saint was still alive as I said. It was you who said/thought/believed my saint to be dead for whatever reason. I remember you bringing up a point about 1512, which didn't even make sense, as it's 2013. All of the characters would be dead, if you think about it like that.

This was a game. It is not real. It's not real life! It's a game! Edoc has the right to bring up characters from all different time periods and put them all in the same universe/world/game if he chooses. You can't let details like that throw you off from the flow of the game.

Okay, that's just bullshit. You threw the town off balance by your claim. Want to know why?
Wikipedia wrote:Saint Catherine of Genoa (Caterina Fieschi Adorno, 1447 – 15 September 1510) is an Italian Roman Catholic saint and mystic, admired for her work among the sick and the poor.


Obviously all the characters are dead, only dead people are canonized. One of the prerequisites of becoming a saint is performing miracles after you died. This meta junk you're defending yourself a posteriori with now is highly confusing and irrelevant. According to you, we shouldn't even care if the mod confirms someone is God, because who cares about flavour?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class aage
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:23 pm
Medals: 5
Standard Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby jak111 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:43 am

I think what she means is Sam was still alive, that's what I gather from it.
Highest Rank:
Major:2157

"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers"

Jak Eliminator: Prison Riot [0/16] *Sign Ups*
User avatar
Private 1st Class jak111
 
Posts: 303
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:24 pm
Location: At your deathbed.
Medals: 24
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (5) Challenge Achievement (1)
Tournament Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby aage on Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:34 pm

jak111 wrote:I think what she means is Sam was still alive, that's what I gather from it.

Hmm. In that case, weird prhasing, but more logical from Violet's point of view.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class aage
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:23 pm
Medals: 5
Standard Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:15 am

aage wrote:Okay, that's just bullshit. You threw the town off balance by your claim. Want to know why?
Wikipedia wrote:Saint Catherine of Genoa (Caterina Fieschi Adorno, 1447 – 15 September 1510) is an Italian Roman Catholic saint and mystic, admired for her work among the sick and the poor.


Once again you are trying to compare real information with a game. That was from Wiki talking about the real Saint Catherine of Genoa. I was a character in a game. It's not real!

aage wrote:Obviously all the characters are dead, only dead people are canonized.
Umm, it's a game, not real life. You are thinking too hard. Being canonized in real life had nothing to do with the saints in this game. Once again, you can't compare real life to a game. In the context of this game, the saints were all living, and town aligned. One of the prerequisites of becoming a saint is performing miracles after you died. This meta junk you're defending yourself a posteriori with now is highly confusing and irrelevant.


My role pm gave no information about my character's personality or miracles performed, etc. All it said was that I was a simple saint living my life by my faith and ideals. Meaning in the game- I was a saint and I was living. Nothing more and nothing less. I am not using any meta whatsoever. I am simple stating what was in my role pm. In fact, you are the one trying to bring in information from wiki and other sources, when that has absolutely nothing to do with the game.

aage wrote:According to you, we shouldn't even care if the mod confirms someone is God, because who cares about flavour?


Where and when did I even say anything like that? I don't even know what you are talking about here, or the relevance of it to anything that I'm trying to say.

Aage, you are totally missing the point. I'm not talking about flavor or meta or anything like that. Please read again the original role pm that edoc sent to me. What part of the phrase "Living Saint" are you not understanding?

What exactly is the problem that you have with my claim? I claimed that I was a saint, that I was alive, and that I was a backup doc. Almost word for word what my pm says.

Once again, if you were thrown off balance by it, its because you thought way too hard about it. If you have an issue about my character being a saint and still being alive- then take it up with Edoc. Though, I don't think it was even meant to be that serious :roll:
Such a trivial fact that you are trying to get thrown off on.

And Jak, what I'm saying has nothing to do with Sam. I'm simply talking about my role pm and my claim. When Sam died, I became the full doctor. But that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say here.

This is baffling as I feel what I'm saying is so very simple, but you guys aren't getting it :roll: Let me break it down once more:

Original Role PM: Saint, living, backup doc
My Claim: Saint, living, backup doc.

It looks pretty equal to me!
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
Violet: oh, what big news?
Bruceswar: I am leaving KORT to go to RA


Image
Major VioIet
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:18 am
Medals: 55
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (8) Tournament Contribution (2)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby aage on Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:41 am

You're focussing on the "you're trying to live life..."-part, I take it. I was under the impression you were saying that your character, Catherine, was not dead yet in the context of the flavour (like Pope Benedict). Obviously you had not died yet in the game.

In fact, you are the one trying to bring in information from wiki and other sources, when that has absolutely nothing to do with the game.

1) I was scum, so obviously I could have been lying
2) I wasn't lying because it does, it can help you catch a fake claim. Everyone who had claimed saint had claimed someone who has been dead for quite some time. You claimed Catherine was alive. Catherine isn't. You are. This is probably where the miscommunication happened.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class aage
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:23 pm
Medals: 5
Standard Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:23 am

aage wrote:You're focussing on the "you're trying to live life..."-part, I take it. I was under the impression you were saying that your character, Catherine, was not dead yet in the context of the flavour (like Pope Benedict). Obviously you had not died yet in the game.


Yes. "You are trying to life your live....." means my character is still alive. When I say still alive, I'm not talking about real life, or wiki or anything like that. I didn't do any outside research on my character. I was just talking about my role pm and the context of the game. And yes, of course I was not died yet in the game. But this whole issue of being alive or not came up early on in the game to distinguish the humans from the angels. The angels were town aligned and some humans were town aligned. Early in the game I claimed to be a human who was a saint, which confused some people.

I think in the context of this game, the title "saint" was just given to a good human being. In real life, it means that the person needed have died already and been canonized, but in this game, it didn't. In real life, you have no idea if you will be a saint or not while you are living, since that decision is made after death. But that didn't really matter for the game. Saint was just a town-aligned human. That's why I got frustrated when people kept comparing the game to real life. It's not going to be an exact match for every detail. I think that Edoc did a fantastic job with the role pm's. I liked that he used the names of real people for his character. However, I don't think it was meant to be this confusing. I think it was meant just for fun.



aage wrote:
In fact, you are the one trying to bring in information from wiki and other sources, when that has absolutely nothing to do with the game.

1) I was scum, so obviously I could have been lying
2) I wasn't lying because it does, it can help you catch a fake claim. Everyone who had claimed saint had claimed someone who has been dead for quite some time. You claimed Catherine was alive. Catherine isn't. You are. This is probably where the miscommunication happened.



Yes, it can help catch fake-claims. But it can also be dangerous though if things of the game don't exactly align with Wiki or real life.


Me= Alive
Me= Catherine
Catherine= Alive

Or is my reasoning faulty here? Is the above a valid argument, or a fallacy?
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
Violet: oh, what big news?
Bruceswar: I am leaving KORT to go to RA


Image
Major VioIet
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:18 am
Medals: 55
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (8) Tournament Contribution (2)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby aage on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:10 am

VioIet wrote:Me= Alive
Me= Catherine
Catherine= Alive

Or is my reasoning faulty here? Is the above a valid argument, or a fallacy?

Aw, boy, this is confusing.
With "Catherine" I meant the actual Catherine of Blablabla, who lived five or six hundred years ago. The discussion at the time was about flavour and which angels would be in the game etcetera, at which point you said that your character was alive. Well obviously in this game the character is alive. But afaik that was now what the discussion was about at the time.
But let's not go into this more. I see where I misunderstood you. I hope you do too now.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class aage
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:23 pm
Medals: 5
Standard Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby Rodion on Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:30 pm

Saying you're alive because of that little phrase in your role PM is akin to getting the following role PM and saying you're a watcher.

Role PM wrote:You're Jack, town vigilante. You've watched the world succumb in chaos until you could no longer stand it. Now you decided to take it upon yourself to cleanse humanity of all evil.

Every night you can target someone to kill him.

You win when all threats to town are eliminated.
Image
User avatar
Brigadier Rodion
 
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Medals: 83
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (27) General Achievement (9) Clan Achievement (14) Tournament Contribution (3)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:09 pm

Hmm, Rodion, I know you aren't a native speaker of English, so perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

You've watched = Past Tense
Trying to Live = Present Tense

I'll break it down in more detail:

Let's take the words watch & live. Here is a list of some of the tenses.

simple past: watched & lived
past perfect: had watched & had lived
past progressive: was/were watching & was/were living
past perfect progressive: had been watching & had been living

simple present: watch/watches & live/lives
present perfect: has watched & has lived
present progressive: is/am watching & is/am living
present perfect progressive: have been watching & have been living


Now, I didn't mean for this post to be a grammar exercise, but what I'm trying to say is:


No, it's not the same Rodion. You have to watch the tenses. If my role pm had said, "were living," it would mean that I was living in the past- alluding that I am now dead. "Trying to live," implies present/current/right now. It is the present progressive tense to be most specific.

That role pm says Jack the Vigilante "had watched." I think that's past perfect tense. So of course it is not implying that Jack is a watcher- that's just crazy! "Had watched," does not equal watcher. It's not even remotely the same vocabulary! Watcher is a title- specifically referring to a role in a mafia game. The word "watched," can mean anything, depending on the sentence.
So come on now, no logical person with even a small grasp of English vocab/grammar is going to deduce "had watched" to equal "Watcher." That's just silly!

Thus my role pm clearly stated that I was alive!

And aage, I understand the confusion. I just keep things a whole lot more simple than most. I don't go into all the meta stuff- I just say it how it is. You see, I wasn't actually responding to any meta at any point in the game. I was simply claiming- that is all. I was asked to claim my role at least three times throughout the game. When Rodion asked me to give a full claim on Day 9, I did so.

But yes, I agree that we can just bury it for now.
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
Violet: oh, what big news?
Bruceswar: I am leaving KORT to go to RA


Image
Major VioIet
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:18 am
Medals: 55
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (8) Tournament Contribution (2)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby Rodion on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:05 pm

You missed the point. The issue is not verbal tenses, but taking an useless flavour piece from your role PM and misleading everyone. It should be obvious that the "trying to live life" bit of your PM was just for flavour, but you managed to make the point that your saint was alive when all catholic saints are, by definition, dead. The expectation was that you were either the Pope or some other really good-hearted contemporary human being, not some lady who died more than 500 years ago.

After you fully claimed and I went back to reading every post of yours to see whether the claim was compatible to the way you had been playing (something I always do as it may help see through a fakeclaim), I noticed the contradiction. Sucks that you had to feel threatened and vote me, but I'm not going to let something as fishy as your claim fly just because I had someone else higher in my suspicion list (do notice that nothing kept me from asking multiple questions to multiple people simulteaneously - the fact I asked you a question did not stop me from also interrogating PCM, which I did).

Not sure if you'll understand, so I'll agree with the recommendation that you bury it.
Image
User avatar
Brigadier Rodion
 
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Medals: 83
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (27) General Achievement (9) Clan Achievement (14) Tournament Contribution (3)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby aage on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:29 pm

VioIet wrote:Hmm, Rodion, I know you aren't a native speaker of English, so perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

No offense but now you're just being spiteful.

Rodion wrote:You're Jack, town vigilante. You watch the world succumb in chaos and you can no longer stand it. You decided to take it upon yourself to cleanse humanity of all evil.

Since, to my knowledge, everyone was confused by your claim, you also seem to be suggesting that all the players in this game must be non native speakers, or just suck at their mother tongue, while all that happened was that you just focussed on trivial details in your role pm that had nothing to do with the game. You ignore meta but do choose to go into the flavour of your pm? That is simply hypocritical. But I am also on the verge of being spiteful so I will stop this battle of having the last word now.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class aage
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:23 pm
Medals: 5
Standard Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby VioIet on Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm

Rodion wrote:You missed the point. The issue is not verbal tenses, but taking an useless flavour piece from your role PM and misleading everyone.


That's just the thing. I wasn't taking flavor whatsoever. I don't even think there was enough in the role pm to be flavor. It was quite bare bones, imo. I just read word for word what the role pm said, no more, no less. I didn't mislead anyone- I was 100% honest about my claim.


However, I was bothered when I was accused of lying/misleading. Someone having a misunderstanding is not the same as me lying or being misleading. There are some games that I definitely do lie, as it's part of playing mafia. This was one of the few games that I actually did not lie for once- so it's kinda annoying that I'm being accused of that. Or of purposely misleading the town. I didn't actually see many up in arms about my claim, unless they choose not to say anything about it at the time.


Rodion wrote: It should be obvious that the "trying to live life" bit of your PM was just for flavour, but you managed to make the point that your saint was alive when all catholic saints are, by definition, dead. The expectation was that you were either the Pope or some other really good-hearted contemporary human being, not some lady who died more than 500 years ago.


Well that was definitely the wrong expectation- I don't know how you even deduce that. As I've said many many times before- it's a game not real life. Who cares about sainthood, Catholicism, the Pope or how whatever works in real life. I'm simply talking about the game and nothing beyond. I don't care about the real life definition of a saint. I only care about the definition of a saint within the context of the game.

The part of my role pm that said "trying to live life," was not flavor to me, but an explanation of my role. From my understanding, we had angels and demons (dead), and humans (alive). I was a human, and saint was just the type of human I was. It would've been incorrect to say that I was dead, when I wasn't.

Rodion wrote:After you fully claimed and I went back to reading every post of yours to see whether the claim was compatible to the way you had been playing (something I always do as it may help see through a fakeclaim), I noticed the contradiction. Sucks that you had to feel threatened and vote me, but I'm not going to let something as fishy as your claim fly just because I had someone else higher in my suspicion list (do notice that nothing kept me from asking multiple questions to multiple people simulteaneously - the fact I asked you a question did not stop me from also interrogating PCM, which I did).


What contradiction did you notice? As yes, quite funny that my claim was "fishy" as it was pretty much as word-for-word as could be possible without directly quoting. I still don't get why something so trivial as me being alive is so important to you. Or why you feel that elements in the game need to be the exact way as they are in real life. I thought the whole point of creating a game was so that you could have your characters do whatever they wanted in that alternate universe you created for the context of the game. It doesn't have to go by real life rules.

Rodion wrote:Not sure if you'll understand, so I'll agree with the recommendation that you bury it.


No, I definitely do not understand your line of view, as you don't understand mind. From my perspective you are taking all these non-game elements and using them to analyze the game and you're looking for stuff that's not there. I think that just results in making things complicated and confusing when they shouldn't be. We are just thinking completely differently about it. So at this point, we'll just agree to disagree.


aage wrote:
VioIet wrote:Hmm, Rodion, I know you aren't a native speaker of English, so perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

No offense but now you're just being spiteful.


None taken. But I guess just equally as spiteful as someone telling me that I would think "had watched," equals "Watcher." :roll:


aage wrote:Since, to my knowledge, everyone was confused by your claim, you also seem to be suggesting that all the players in this game must be non native speakers, or just suck at their mother tongue


Well those are your words, not mine. But yes, that would be unfortunate if so. I've always been big on wording, and normally seem to think others are likewise. But I guess not.

aage wrote:While all that happened was that you just focussed on trivial details in your role pm that had nothing to do with the game. You ignore meta but do choose to go into the flavour of your pm? That is simply hypocritical.


With all due respect, I honestly don't think I was the one who focused on such a trivial detail. Not to begin with, that is. It was after I claimed, that someone else seemed to focus too much on me saying that I was alive. Something like that would've never bothered me in the first place, honestly.

I never thought me saying "I'm still alive," would be such a friggin big deal.

I still don't regret it, since it's true! I stand behind everything I've said so far. And again, I understand that we disagree and we can just leave it at that.



aage wrote:But I am also on the verge of being spiteful so I will stop this battle of having the last word now.



Be as spiteful as you want, I don't give a care. Just depends on how much you think it's worth it to be spiteful over a disagreement about a trivial game detail. Suit yourself.
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
Violet: oh, what big news?
Bruceswar: I am leaving KORT to go to RA


Image
Major VioIet
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:18 am
Medals: 55
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (8) Tournament Contribution (2)
General Contribution (1)

Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

Postby safariguy5 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:02 am

To perhaps steer this discussion a bit more into the realm of mafia and less on grammar, I'm a bit curious as to why Vio didn't look up her role? I'm not a Catholic, but I daresay that many Catholics aren't familiar with all the saints. I mean, I didn't even know that Raguel was an archangel, but I did look it up after the claim. And if you yourself do not take the time to check the flavor of your role, then when someone else cites outside sources, surely it wouldn't hurt to at least affirm or deny the information provided by someone else.

Part of this has to do with find out fakeclaims. We know that mafia may have to fakeclaim from time to time, and if roleflavor does not support the claim well, then that may be a hint that the person is faking. I have to say that I didn't initially see too much with Vio's claim, but the defensive nature of her response and apparent complete unwillingness to accept any outside attempts at clarification made me think twice. If it weren't for the earlier innocent result and the fact that I thought we had better leads, I might have believed she was faking. So in conclusion Vio, I think that your initial claim may have been a poor choice of wording, but you compounded the issue by the subsequent defense and failure to do a little research into your own role to provide some substance/rationale.
Image
User avatar
Captain safariguy5
 
Posts: 1894
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:42 pm
Location: California
Medals: 69
Conquer Cup Silver Achievement (1) Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3)
Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (13) Tournament Contribution (6)
General Contribution (8)

PreviousNext

Return to Mafia Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Login