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Dukasaur wrote:The problem is basically twofold.
First, the human soul does not exist a priori as postulated by traditional religion, but must be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation.
Dukasaur wrote:Second, people aren't wearing enough hats.
john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.
our society isn't becoming "more moral"... we are just getting better at enforcing our collective self-interests. nothing has fundamentally changed about our motivations.
on the contrary, there's also the idea that our increasing access to other people's perspectives had caused us to more often view others as extensions of ourselves, leading to higher empathy... not sure how much merit that idea has, though.
AAFitz wrote:john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.
our society isn't becoming "more moral"... we are just getting better at enforcing our collective self-interests. nothing has fundamentally changed about our motivations.
on the contrary, there's also the idea that our increasing access to other people's perspectives had caused us to more often view others as extensions of ourselves, leading to higher empathy... not sure how much merit that idea has, though.
I think you discount the contrary point more than you should.
If you consider the behavior today that most would not only condemn but physically wince at now...much of it, was socially acceptable not so many years ago.
Motivations do change, as people become more educated, and while we hardly liven in a utopia, in many ways, the world is better for many because of much progress. Unfortunately, progress takes change and education, and many resist both, sometimes out of fear, but often simply out of habit, and perhaps most often, because they are corrupt.
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(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
john9blue wrote:do you really think people are more educated now than they were half a century ago?
john9blue wrote:do you really think people are more educated now than they were half a century ago?
PLAYER57832 wrote:When I talk to many conservative Christians, for example, their very facts and understanding differs from what is known and proven. When I talk to avid Tea Partiers, they, too have a very different understanding of the facts, as do some extreme left-wingers and even a few more extreme "civil rights advocates" (put in quotes because they are really substituting oppression of whites for oppression of folks of (an)other color(s) ). These people often have great access to the internet, and I cannot help but think that is part of the problem. The internet in no way makes it easy to distinguish between true, proven facts and things people just wish were true or believe.
Woodruff wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:When I talk to many conservative Christians, for example, their very facts and understanding differs from what is known and proven. When I talk to avid Tea Partiers, they, too have a very different understanding of the facts, as do some extreme left-wingers and even a few more extreme "civil rights advocates" (put in quotes because they are really substituting oppression of whites for oppression of folks of (an)other color(s) ). These people often have great access to the internet, and I cannot help but think that is part of the problem. The internet in no way makes it easy to distinguish between true, proven facts and things people just wish were true or believe.
I find it telling that you only note "extreme" left-wingers and civil rights advocates while referring to "conservative" Christians and "avid" Tea Partiers. The reality is that this is a problem among all people to a degree, but typically it will be the extreme of ANY group (liberal, conservative or otherwise) that falls most prey to it.
PLAYER57832 wrote:Woodruff wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:When I talk to many conservative Christians, for example, their very facts and understanding differs from what is known and proven. When I talk to avid Tea Partiers, they, too have a very different understanding of the facts, as do some extreme left-wingers and even a few more extreme "civil rights advocates" (put in quotes because they are really substituting oppression of whites for oppression of folks of (an)other color(s) ). These people often have great access to the internet, and I cannot help but think that is part of the problem. The internet in no way makes it easy to distinguish between true, proven facts and things people just wish were true or believe.
I find it telling that you only note "extreme" left-wingers and civil rights advocates while referring to "conservative" Christians and "avid" Tea Partiers. The reality is that this is a problem among all people to a degree, but typically it will be the extreme of ANY group (liberal, conservative or otherwise) that falls most prey to it.
LOL.. in this case, you are putting too much emphasis on a quick word choice. I was very much just trying to pick as wide a range of extremists as I could.
PLAYER57832 wrote:People tend to quickly understand the reference to conservative Christians and avid Tea Partiers that don't always check facts, but "liberal" is far more vague. Per the civil rights bit.. I was trying to think of a way to specify the very fringe because I am a pretty heavy civil rights proponent, but without naming a specific ethnic group.
john9blue wrote:AAFitz wrote:john9blue wrote:people are selfish, and people form groups to ensure their own self-interests.
our society isn't becoming "more moral"... we are just getting better at enforcing our collective self-interests. nothing has fundamentally changed about our motivations.
on the contrary, there's also the idea that our increasing access to other people's perspectives had caused us to more often view others as extensions of ourselves, leading to higher empathy... not sure how much merit that idea has, though.
I think you discount the contrary point more than you should.
If you consider the behavior today that most would not only condemn but physically wince at now...much of it, was socially acceptable not so many years ago.
Motivations do change, as people become more educated, and while we hardly liven in a utopia, in many ways, the world is better for many because of much progress. Unfortunately, progress takes change and education, and many resist both, sometimes out of fear, but often simply out of habit, and perhaps most often, because they are corrupt.
the difference is that you believe the change is happening on an individual level, and i believe it's happening on a societal level.
do you really think people are more educated now than they were half a century ago?
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