[CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- TOFU wins!

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby josko.ri on Sun May 05, 2013 4:51 am

eddie2 wrote:i hate to say it josko. but do you remember a small incident in one of the cups or leagues cannot remember which one. where kort took something like 6 games off of tofu because they fielded a player extra times.. where was the honor there with what kort did ???

Do you not think that if kort acted differently with that result then tofu would of with this decision, you see when you do something outrageous it will always come back and kick you in the teeth. everything you are saying now is everything they were saying then but you did not change your minds.. ;)

On that time we advanced by TOFU's mistake and gift received from them so they suffered and we profited for their own mistake. This time KORT did not do any mistake, so TOFU profited and KORT suffered because of mistake from third party. That is one big difference between 2 cases that you are now putting in the same comparison line.

Also, nobody from TOFU congratulated on that time to KORT (everyone flamed KORT with ratings, calling us by abusive names, crying for years in forums...), and now everyone from TOFU is expecting that all our players congratulate to them for their "win" gifted from the site. You see, I am the one who did not congratulate but rather put my own opinion that they did not deserve the win as playing conditions were not equal and that non-equality directly influenced final result, and you see because of that I am now flamed from many TOFU members (including the other thread) and called by low honor names, and I am just pointing out the plain and true fact that their win was gift from the site, which is obviously too hard for them to hear. I know it much better sounds clap clap clap, but for what I should clap, for showing great ability to accept the gift from the site, but that is not something I plan to clap for.

If you say everything what I say now is everything they said then, why then they flame me because of that? When they were speaking so, it was normal and acceptable, but when I speak the same, it is sore losing. Something is weird in this logic, isn't it?
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby eddie2 on Sun May 05, 2013 5:41 am

josko.ri wrote:
eddie2 wrote:i hate to say it josko. but do you remember a small incident in one of the cups or leagues cannot remember which one. where kort took something like 6 games off of tofu because they fielded a player extra times.. where was the honor there with what kort did ???

Do you not think that if kort acted differently with that result then tofu would of with this decision, you see when you do something outrageous it will always come back and kick you in the teeth. everything you are saying now is everything they were saying then but you did not change your minds.. ;)

On that time we advanced by TOFU's mistake and gift received from them so they suffered and we profited for their own mistake. This time KORT did not do any mistake, so TOFU profited and KORT suffered because of mistake from third party. That is one big difference between 2 cases that you are now putting in the same comparison line.

Also, nobody from TOFU congratulated on that time to KORT (everyone flamed KORT with ratings, calling us by abusive names, crying for years in forums...), and now everyone from TOFU is expecting that all our players congratulate to them for their "win" gifted from the site. You see, I am the one who did not congratulate but rather put my own opinion that they did not deserve the win as playing conditions were not equal and that non-equality directly influenced final result, and you see because of that I am now flamed from many TOFU members (including the other thread) and called by low honor names, and I am just pointing out the plain and true fact that their win was gift from the site, which is obviously too hard for them to hear. I know it much better sounds clap clap clap, but for what I should clap, for showing great ability to accept the gift from the site, but that is not something I plan to clap for.

If you say everything what I say now is everything they said then, why then they flame me because of that? When they were speaking so, it was normal and acceptable, but when I speak the same, it is sore losing. Something is weird in this logic, isn't it?


please where did i flame you, all i said was that your decision to take (after looking back at it) a 21 game forfeit for 1 game overplayed in ccup1 would of been the deciding factor of tofu not giving you this decision and a replay. if it was any other clan they were facing i am sure they would of done the right thing..
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby josko.ri on Tue May 07, 2013 8:03 am

eddie2 wrote:please where did i flame you, all i said was that your decision to take (after looking back at it) a 21 game forfeit for 1 game overplayed in ccup1 would of been the deciding factor of tofu not giving you this decision and a replay. if it was any other clan they were facing i am sure they would of done the right thing..

eddie, read again, I didn't say you flamed me, I said that many TOFU members flamed me. As far as I know, you are not TOFU member.

About your other argument, I disagree because only one of those 2 solutions are possible:

1. If you are right and they really made this decision because of past history with KORT in our first war, then it means Denise as official contact was liar when she said reasons for her decision to not replay the game. link: viewtopic.php?f=442&t=183896&start=510#p4093151
Denise wrote:Just so everyone has the facts, my part in the decision not to replay the game was based on the fairness of that decision to both clans and the circumstances of the game in question only.

2. If you are wrong then it means they would do the same decision vs every other clan they played. It is also obvious from further part of Denise's post.
Denise wrote:I did not bring into it history, Josko's accusations, or our likelihood of a win in this war.


I do not think Denise was liar in her post, so in my opinion correct is option (2), which means your statement is wrong and they would do the same decision vs every other clan.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby jetsetwilly on Tue May 07, 2013 8:18 am

For the record the clans voted 25 to 5 in favour of no replays for site bugs for any future issues like this one. Whilst appreciating that that it's going to hurt if it happens to them, the vast majority felt this was the right thing to do. If the 2 clans both agree to a replay then that's fine.

So while they were not being asked to vote on this particular occurrence it would seem that most are in line with the views of the CD's and the admins.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby josko.ri on Tue May 07, 2013 9:19 am

jetsetwilly wrote:For the record the clans voted 25 to 5 in favour of no replays for site bugs for any future issues like this one. Whilst appreciating that that it's going to hurt if it happens to them, the vast majority felt this was the right thing to do. If the 2 clans both agree to a replay then that's fine.

So while they were not being asked to vote on this particular occurrence it would seem that most are in line with the views of the CD's and the admins.

Since you allowed in the voting option to still replay if the 2 clans agree to do it, then it is logical vast majority voted for no making a rule of "always replay game influenced by site glitch". Most clans believe in fair play in competitions (who normal would participate in some competition if he thinks that there is no fair play in the competition?) so since in the voting it was allowed option to still replay if both clans in question agree, it is logically that voters who believe in fair play voted for no replays by default.

By plain logic, if you set up vote for "Yes replay" or "No replay", BUT under some fair play circumstances "No" can be "Yes", then of course nobody who think "No" will not vote for "Yes", but somebody who believes in fair play and think "Yes" will vote for "No". That is why the voting options were set up wrong in this case. If you want representative result of players' opinion, then it should be set up plain "Yes" or "No", without exceptions. I believe result of voting will be different in that case.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby Denise on Tue May 07, 2013 10:53 am

josko.ri wrote:I do not think Denise was liar in her post...

Wow, just when I am about to hit Josko with an exaggerated indignation post, he counters with a non-liar accusation. :shock: He really knows how to fight dirty! ;)
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby comic boy on Tue May 07, 2013 3:36 pm

Denise wrote:
josko.ri wrote:I do not think Denise was liar in her post...

Wow, just when I am about to hit Josko with an exaggerated indignation post, he counters with a non-liar accusation. :shock: He really knows how to fight dirty! ;)


Not just fight dirty , you really dont want to see the state of his diapers :roll:
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby jj3044 on Tue May 07, 2013 9:15 pm

josko.ri wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:For the record the clans voted 25 to 5 in favour of no replays for site bugs for any future issues like this one. Whilst appreciating that that it's going to hurt if it happens to them, the vast majority felt this was the right thing to do. If the 2 clans both agree to a replay then that's fine.

So while they were not being asked to vote on this particular occurrence it would seem that most are in line with the views of the CD's and the admins.

Since you allowed in the voting option to still replay if the 2 clans agree to do it, then it is logical vast majority voted for no making a rule of "always replay game influenced by site glitch". Most clans believe in fair play in competitions (who normal would participate in some competition if he thinks that there is no fair play in the competition?) so since in the voting it was allowed option to still replay if both clans in question agree, it is logically that voters who believe in fair play voted for no replays by default.

By plain logic, if you set up vote for "Yes replay" or "No replay", BUT under some fair play circumstances "No" can be "Yes", then of course nobody who think "No" will not vote for "Yes", but somebody who believes in fair play and think "Yes" will vote for "No". That is why the voting options were set up wrong in this case. If you want representative result of players' opinion, then it should be set up plain "Yes" or "No", without exceptions. I believe result of voting will be different in that case.

Most every other clan "decision" can be changed if both clans agree in a war. So as that prescient exists already, it doesn't make sense to have "no exceptions".

How are we still talking about this again? :?
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue May 07, 2013 10:15 pm

If it was a game in which each team had a 50/50 chance of winning and a glitch occurred then I don't think any clan would have a problem agreeing to a remake if the glitch made a big difference to the course of play.

If it is a game where one team has an 80%+ chance of winning due to the advantage it has already secured prior to the site glitch (notwithstanding a missed turn by the other team whilst holding a set which would have changed the game entirely) then I think it unreasonable to expect that game to be replayed, or even request it to be replayed.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby Master Fenrir on Tue May 07, 2013 11:00 pm

josko.ri wrote:like some kid pointing fingers to other kid and say I have fruits, you dont have, mwahahahahaaa.

This made me laugh so hard that I had to see if a picture existed to fit my mental image. Pretty damn close.

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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby Crazyirishman on Wed May 08, 2013 1:29 am

josko.ri wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:For the record the clans voted 25 to 5 in favour of no replays for site bugs for any future issues like this one. Whilst appreciating that that it's going to hurt if it happens to them, the vast majority felt this was the right thing to do. If the 2 clans both agree to a replay then that's fine.

So while they were not being asked to vote on this particular occurrence it would seem that most are in line with the views of the CD's and the admins.

Since you allowed in the voting option to still replay if the 2 clans agree to do it, then it is logical vast majority voted for no making a rule of "always replay game influenced by site glitch". Most clans believe in fair play in competitions (who normal would participate in some competition if he thinks that there is no fair play in the competition?) so since in the voting it was allowed option to still replay if both clans in question agree, it is logically that voters who believe in fair play voted for no replays by default.

By plain logic, if you set up vote for "Yes replay" or "No replay", BUT under some fair play circumstances "No" can be "Yes", then of course nobody who think "No" will not vote for "Yes", but somebody who believes in fair play and think "Yes" will vote for "No". That is why the voting options were set up wrong in this case. If you want representative result of players' opinion, then it should be set up plain "Yes" or "No", without exceptions. I believe result of voting will be different in that case.


Formal logic club demands the poll be reset!!!!
The options could read something like this to remove confusion:
Option A: (x)(Gx●Obx)⊃Rx
Option B: (x)(Gx●Obx)⊃~Rx
given that:
Gx- x is a game
Oxy- x occurs in y
Rx- x should be replayed
b- bug

Then people won't be voting yes when they mean no, and maybe when they mean always etc. In fact, all future polls should use this notation to make it easier for everybody to understand what they are voting for.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby L M S on Wed May 08, 2013 12:00 pm

josko.ri wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:For the record the clans voted 25 to 5 in favour of no replays for site bugs for any future issues like this one. Whilst appreciating that that it's going to hurt if it happens to them, the vast majority felt this was the right thing to do. If the 2 clans both agree to a replay then that's fine.

So while they were not being asked to vote on this particular occurrence it would seem that most are in line with the views of the CD's and the admins.

Since you allowed in the voting option to still replay if the 2 clans agree to do it, then it is logical vast majority voted for no making a rule of "always replay game influenced by site glitch". Most clans believe in fair play in competitions (who normal would participate in some competition if he thinks that there is no fair play in the competition?) so since in the voting it was allowed option to still replay if both clans in question agree, it is logically that voters who believe in fair play voted for no replays by default.

By plain logic, if you set up vote for "Yes replay" or "No replay", BUT under some fair play circumstances "No" can be "Yes", then of course nobody who think "No" will not vote for "Yes", but somebody who believes in fair play and think "Yes" will vote for "No". That is why the voting options were set up wrong in this case. If you want representative result of players' opinion, then it should be set up plain "Yes" or "No", without exceptions. I believe result of voting will be different in that case.


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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby eddie2 on Wed May 08, 2013 3:44 pm

josko.ri wrote:
eddie2 wrote:please where did i flame you, all i said was that your decision to take (after looking back at it) a 21 game forfeit for 1 game overplayed in ccup1 would of been the deciding factor of tofu not giving you this decision and a replay. if it was any other clan they were facing i am sure they would of done the right thing..

eddie, read again, I didn't say you flamed me, I said that many TOFU members flamed me. As far as I know, you are not TOFU member.

About your other argument, I disagree because only one of those 2 solutions are possible:

1. If you are right and they really made this decision because of past history with KORT in our first war, then it means Denise as official contact was liar when she said reasons for her decision to not replay the game. link: viewtopic.php?f=442&t=183896&start=510#p4093151
Denise wrote:Just so everyone has the facts, my part in the decision not to replay the game was based on the fairness of that decision to both clans and the circumstances of the game in question only.

2. If you are wrong then it means they would do the same decision vs every other clan they played. It is also obvious from further part of Denise's post.
Denise wrote:I did not bring into it history, Josko's accusations, or our likelihood of a win in this war.


I do not think Denise was liar in her post, so in my opinion correct is option (2), which means your statement is wrong and they would do the same decision vs every other clan.


ok sorry you did not say i did...

now in no way did i say what denise said was a lie...

facts this issue was put to tofu first (if not then you went against general conduct and not asked for a replay.) and this was refused..

Denise has not said why each player said no replay or i guess even asked them.

if aka were in this position we would look at a couple of things.

1)would it affect the outcome of the game.
2)would it be a decider for the war.
and the main one would be.
3) what would the other clan do.

now kort have proven they would take the game for themselves. (and plz dont bring up again it was all tofus fault a player played 1 extra game you guys were running the thread so were responsible for player counts and this was inaccurate making it look like the player in question could still play in 1 game after he had played 1 extra. So was at equal fault of yourself.)

so tofu would of had a thread in there pages talking about what had happened in ccup1 and even though they would not say this would of been the deciding factor as to why each player voted against the replay..

vote in cdf.

me personally i would look at the clan in question where it happened to bring the vote up.. the time that was left to take the shot and the players involved.

so lets start.

clan in question have proven they do not respect the amount of time spent to get so far in a event and fair play to other clans. they caused major outrage by taking 21 games that many clans disapproved of and this would of been a deciding factor on there vote.

(remember most clans have players who were around when this happened and can remember it)

clan in question attacked many players defending a well known member of the site that was abusing the game play of the site and the way he played.

clan in question had the head cd who was showing disrespect to what clans wanted in the cl4 thread and blaming everyone but himself.
(this would cover the clans/players who were not around when this happened)

now tell me these were not deciding factors on how clans voted.

So please stop with the bull shit that it was kort who were the victims in this korts actions have brought all of this upon themselves.

now that all of this is over maybe cdf can make another vote about this event where it will not affect any present results and something to add for future events and it might get passed. because i believe the vote lost because it was surrounding a present arguement and not a issue which would alter a clans choice of what should happen in a ongoing issue.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby Nicky15 on Wed May 08, 2013 3:49 pm

May i just add the vote was specifically for this site bugged game, but for the CDFs stance on all future related site bugged games. The vast majority voted if any game is disrupted by a site bug, then there will not be a replay granted. I think this has been discussed to death now, whats done is done. Can we just get on with enjoying the final and wishing TOFU and AFOS the best of luck. =D>
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby eddie2 on Wed May 08, 2013 3:56 pm

Nicky15 wrote:May i just add the vote was NOT for this site bugged game, but for the CDFs stance on all future related site bugged games. The vast majority voted if any game is disrupted by a site bug, then there will be no reply granted. I think this has been discussed to death now, can we just get on with enjoying the final and wishing TOFU and AFOS the best of luck. =D>


nicky there several players who would bring out in public how the vote went myself properly one of them. and affected how clans voted at the end of it you do not allow beta for this reason in events, so the final vote would of been more surrounding the issue that was happening and not future events. now that this issue is over maybe hold another vote and there might be a different result for it. with guidelines saying that known downtime will not be included because these are advertised.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby chemefreak on Wed May 08, 2013 4:25 pm

eddie2 wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:May i just add the vote was NOT for this site bugged game, but for the CDFs stance on all future related site bugged games. The vast majority voted if any game is disrupted by a site bug, then there will be no reply granted. I think this has been discussed to death now, can we just get on with enjoying the final and wishing TOFU and AFOS the best of luck. =D>


nicky there several players who would bring out in public how the vote went myself properly one of them. and affected how clans voted at the end of it you do not allow beta for this reason in events, so the final vote would of been more surrounding the issue that was happening and not future events. now that this issue is over maybe hold another vote and there might be a different result for it. with guidelines saying that known downtime will not be included because these are advertised.


So you voted the way you voted because you wanted to screw one of the clans involved? Wow. That seems a bit extreme. You should seek help for your anger issues.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby Doc_Brown on Wed May 08, 2013 4:41 pm

Eddie,
I want to be clear that previous TOFU-KORT interactions had no influence on our discussion of the game in question. The vast majority of current TOFU members were not involved in the previous scrap. As CoF and Denise both stated, we felt the game was already nearly decided and that the fairest result would be to let it stand with no replay. Had the game been a toss-up with the bug granting a clear advantage, I think we would have been much more inclined to grant a replay. We would have made the same decision regardless of who we were playing.

So I'm requesting that you drop KORT's actions from years ago. It is irrelevant and is insulting to both KORT (in suggesting both that they exercised poor sportsmanship then and that they would do the same now) and TOFU (in suggesting that we are holding a grudge for a perceived slight against people that were members of our clan years ago). Most of us are tired of the KORT-TOFU grudge crap and just want to move past it. Frankly, I couldn't care less about why the CDFs voted. They voted to not grant replays for site bugs (and rightly so in my opinion - how much worse is a bug like this compared to killing only 2 troops with a stack of 30? And we all know that happens from time to time, but we don't give replays for bad dice!). They also noted that a joint decision of the two clans involved can overrule the standing practice, as has been the case historically. If you find several CDFs that would like to change their votes, there would be just cause to re-open the issue.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby eddie2 on Wed May 08, 2013 4:47 pm

chemefreak wrote:
eddie2 wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:May i just add the vote was NOT for this site bugged game, but for the CDFs stance on all future related site bugged games. The vast majority voted if any game is disrupted by a site bug, then there will be no reply granted. I think this has been discussed to death now, can we just get on with enjoying the final and wishing TOFU and AFOS the best of luck. =D>


nicky there several players who would bring out in public how the vote went myself properly one of them. and affected how clans voted at the end of it you do not allow beta for this reason in events, so the final vote would of been more surrounding the issue that was happening and not future events. now that this issue is over maybe hold another vote and there might be a different result for it. with guidelines saying that known downtime will not be included because these are advertised.


So you voted the way you voted because you wanted to screw one of the clans involved? Wow. That seems a bit extreme. You should seek help for your anger issues.


did i say that,
i did not vote i abstained from my vote for reasons of personal issues because yes i would of for the time at hand issue happening. if it was just now i would proberly vote for it to happen.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby chemefreak on Wed May 08, 2013 4:47 pm

The vote was 25 to 5...so let's move on!
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Final has started

Postby eddie2 on Wed May 08, 2013 6:09 pm

chemefreak wrote:The vote was 25 to 5...so let's move on!


agreed 100 percent chemefreak,

and sorry for my posts, i do not read any threads that are not involving aka there was a link posted in live chat showing what had happened in the war thread that had been locked and another link showing he was carrying it on in this one so i posted my thoughts. and promis i will not post again on this subject.

any all the best to the 2 finalists and congrats to who wins...(sorry tofu i want afos a new clan for the winners :mrgreen: :mrgreen: )
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Quarterfinals now

Postby Dako on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:31 am

Hear hear! Finals have been decided! It is my pleasure to announce the winner of 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup — The Odd Fellows Union!

Some interesting facts about CCup3:
  • 33 clans signed up
  • 32 wars have been played
  • CCup3 lasted for 15 months, from April 2012 till June 2013
  • 10 upsets have happened, including both semi-finals and half of the quarter-finals!
  • Biggest game gap is 31 games — (4) TOFU vs (29) SOH - [36 :: 5]
  • Most games won in a single war is 44 by — (1) KORT vs (17) DYN - [44 :: 17]

We also have two winners of CCup predictions, Chuuuuck and allinpoker1980! 2nd place is taken by betiko while 3rd is tied by Dako and Denise.

Predictions contest was help by IcePack and Leehar in this thread.

Let me remind you of the prizes!
6 months premium and a general achievement medal to the winner, and 3 months premium each for 2nd and 3rd placed Contestants - while additional 3 months prize money is available if entries surpass all projections and 50+ contestants participate (Prize issued by virtue of a random(.org) lottery in the first week of active competition)


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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Quarterfinals now

Postby betiko on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:06 pm

Dako wrote:Hear hear! Finals have been decided! It is my pleasure to announce the winner of 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup — The Odd Fellows Union!

Some interesting facts about CCup3:
  • 33 clans signed up
  • 32 wars have been played
  • CCup3 lasted for 15 months, from April 2012 till June 2013
  • 10 upsets have happened, including both semi-finals and half of the quarter-finals!
  • Biggest game gap is 31 games — (4) TOFU vs (29) SOH - [36 :: 5]
  • Most games won in a single war is 44 by — (1) KORT vs (17) DYN - [44 :: 17]

We also have two winners of CCup predictions, Chuuuuck and allinpoker1980! 2nd place is taken by betiko while 3rd is tied by Dako and Denise.

Predictions contest was help by IcePack and Leehar in this thread.

Let me remind you of the prizes!
6 months premium and a general achievement medal to the winner, and 3 months premium each for 2nd and 3rd placed Contestants - while additional 3 months prize money is available if entries surpass all projections and 50+ contestants participate (Prize issued by virtue of a random(.org) lottery in the first week of active competition)


Dako



cool!
can i give it to a friend?
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Quarterfinals now

Postby Dako on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:24 pm

betiko wrote:cool!
can i give it to a friend?

It is up to Leehar to allow it but in all previous cases it was permitted to gift premium membership to another player.
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- Quarterfinals now

Postby IcePack on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:25 pm

Dako wrote:
betiko wrote:cool!
can i give it to a friend?

It is up to Leehar to allow it but in all previous cases it was permitted to gift premium membership to another player.


I have messaged Leehar & Dispatch to let them know its finalized, and the gift request by betiko. =D>
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: [CC3] - 3rd Annual Conqueror's Cup! -- TOFU wins!

Postby eddie2 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:28 pm

aw bummer i wanted afos to win...


lol only joking well done tofu enjoy your high life.. because after we kick kort out of ccup4 we want tofu in the 2nd round to do the same :twisted:
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