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If Marriage Is a Fundamental Right, Then?

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Re: Marriage

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 11:45 am

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:In summary, gender doesn't matter.

THE DEBATE IS OVER!


Yup. Let's start letting men play on girls high school sports teams. Let's start sharing bathrooms at all ages. Let's abolish boy scouts and girl scouts. Let's abolish all dress codes. Let's ban the words mother and father, brother and sister.


How's that freedom and liberty shtick of yours coming along? Cuz this sure sounds like freedom if I ever heard it!


That's the wrong kind of freedome and liberty...not his kind.
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Re: Marriage

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 08, 2013 4:33 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:In summary, gender doesn't matter.

THE DEBATE IS OVER!


Yup. Let's start letting men play on girls high school sports teams. Let's start sharing bathrooms at all ages. Let's abolish boy scouts and girl scouts. Let's abolish all dress codes. Let's ban the words mother and father, brother and sister.

PS, I'm with you, but we need to go even further.

We might as well just abolish gender, and force everyone to become unisexual, because it is pretty clear, that is where we are heading.

Image


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Re: Marriage

Postby Lootifer on Wed May 08, 2013 4:48 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:In summary, gender doesn't matter.

THE DEBATE IS OVER!


Yup. Let's start letting men play on girls high school sports teams. Let's start sharing bathrooms at all ages. Let's abolish boy scouts and girl scouts. Let's abolish all dress codes. Let's ban the words mother and father, brother and sister.


Eventually, high school sports teams are going to be uni-sex. It's just going to happen as girls catch up to boys more and more. Bathroom sharing is already happening.

Not completely true. Physiological differences mean that men will always be superior at endurance, strength and full body motor skill (e.g. throwing a ball while running is a full body motor skill) based sports. It would be unfair to the woman to force them to compete on the same playing field as men.

(personal anecdote: I was startled when I began rowing at the differences between men and woman in the sport - the gap was wider than anything I had previously seen in other sports. A guy I rowed with who was arguably very fit, but at the end of the day just a social/amateur level competitor and had never rowed before, by the end of the season his 2k time on the rowing machine was ~10 seconds faster than the womans world record)
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Re: Marriage

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 5:07 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:In summary, gender doesn't matter.

THE DEBATE IS OVER!


Yup. Let's start letting men play on girls high school sports teams. Let's start sharing bathrooms at all ages. Let's abolish boy scouts and girl scouts. Let's abolish all dress codes. Let's ban the words mother and father, brother and sister.


Eventually, high school sports teams are going to be uni-sex. It's just going to happen as girls catch up to boys more and more. Bathroom sharing is already happening.


Not completely true. Physiological differences mean that men will always be superior at endurance, strength and full body motor skill (e.g. throwing a ball while running is a full body motor skill) based sports.


Certainly that is currently true. I do not at all believe that will remain true forever (note my word "eventually").

Lootifer wrote:It would be unfair to the woman to force them to compete on the same playing field as men.


Currently, I agree with you.
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Re: Marriage

Postby Lootifer on Wed May 08, 2013 5:18 pm

Interesting. How long do you have? ;)

I would hazard to guess it will take literally hundreds of thousands of years to overcome our evolutionary bias.
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Re: Marriage

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 08, 2013 5:25 pm

Lootifer wrote:Interesting. How long do you have? ;)


My wife occasionally informs me that I don't have that long. <grin>

Lootifer wrote:I would hazard to guess it will take literally hundreds of thousands of years to overcome our evolutionary bias.


For us to evidence complete equality? I would agree. For women to begin to be legitimately competitive? I don't think so.

For instance, in college basketball, Brittney Greiner from Baylor was BY FAR the most dominant female in womens college basketball. It really wasn't particularly close (I still can't believe they lost to Louisville). In the mens game, she'd be below average because while she has the height, she doesn't have the strength to match up.

But how long has it been that women have been able to even play basketball at all? And fullcourt basketball is a very recent phenomena (within my lifetime). Not very long.

I am of the opinion that money savings will be a primary driver (cheaper to have one team than two!), along with the thinking that women are becoming much more competitive in sporting event areas.
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Re: Marriage

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed May 08, 2013 7:33 pm

Lootifer wrote:Interesting. How long do you have? ;)

I would hazard to guess it will take literally hundreds of thousands of years to overcome our evolutionary bias.

That bias may not be as strong as you think.

I am a rather petite female, slightly stocky, but definitely not with big muscles or anything and yet... min my 20's, I was able to lift more, heft a pick for longer (and effectively) than 99% of the guys I worked with. (similar ages... not talking old farts here... lol).

Many of the real and true differences between men and women are not so obvious, they have more to do with how we just approach various problems and life. Whenever people try to make distinctions, they fail, partly becuase they tend to look at things from a more superficial and easy to measure way, like "can lift more". When what really matters is who can move the rock better. Better might mean not lifting it at all, but instead rolling it, or even just finding a way to use it where it lays.

Even in sports, though very circumscribed, limited in scope, you see the anomolies-- the short basketball star, for example.
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Re: Marriage

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 09, 2013 1:39 am

Lootifer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:In summary, gender doesn't matter.

THE DEBATE IS OVER!


Yup. Let's start letting men play on girls high school sports teams. Let's start sharing bathrooms at all ages. Let's abolish boy scouts and girl scouts. Let's abolish all dress codes. Let's ban the words mother and father, brother and sister.


Eventually, high school sports teams are going to be uni-sex. It's just going to happen as girls catch up to boys more and more. Bathroom sharing is already happening.

Not completely true. Physiological differences mean that men will always be superior at endurance, strength and full body motor skill (e.g. throwing a ball while running is a full body motor skill) based sports. It would be unfair to the woman to force them to compete on the same playing field as men.

(personal anecdote: I was startled when I began rowing at the differences between men and woman in the sport - the gap was wider than anything I had previously seen in other sports. A guy I rowed with who was arguably very fit, but at the end of the day just a social/amateur level competitor and had never rowed before, by the end of the season his 2k time on the rowing machine was ~10 seconds faster than the womans world record)


Your mum has a full body motor skill... and I like it.
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Re: Marriage

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 09, 2013 10:12 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Oh, why don't you go sex yourself?


BBS, in the future if we allow the homosexuals to marry, there will no longer be any sex as we know it, so your suggestion will be impossible. This is a scary future.

show



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Re: Marriage

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 09, 2013 11:14 am

Image

Whatever do you mean, Andy? All is well in the future. All is well indeed.
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Re: Marriage

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 09, 2013 11:24 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Image

Whatever do you mean, Andy? All is well in the future. All is well indeed.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaHhhhhhhhh

Image


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Re: Marriage

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 09, 2013 7:13 pm

Middle School Girls Forced Into 'Lesbian Kiss' at NY School

their daughters complained that they were forced to ask each other for kisses and pretend to be lovers during an anti-bullying presentation on homosexuality and gender identity.


http://www.christianpost.com/news/paren ... ool-94523/


The little boy who started a sex change aged eight because he (and his lesbian parents) knew he always wanted to be a girl


Image

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tment.html
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Re: Marriage

Postby Lootifer on Thu May 09, 2013 8:04 pm

What is the issue with those two stories PS?

First one is using roleplay to teach anti-bullying themes, I dont have an issue with that (I do agree that being specific about what the bullying is about seems slightly odd, but I dont think it matters much). They certainly never actually kissed or anything like that. I remember doing something very similar when I went through the life-lessons part of pre-puberty education (Roleplay: Dave is being bullied by Jake, now James you enter the situation and tell us how you would react).

The second one is a pretty cut and dry case. That is unless you dont believe the gender identity disorder exists.
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Re: Marriage

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 09, 2013 8:07 pm

Woodruff wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:In summary, gender doesn't matter.

THE DEBATE IS OVER!


Yup. Let's start letting men play on girls high school sports teams. Let's start sharing bathrooms at all ages. Let's abolish boy scouts and girl scouts. Let's abolish all dress codes. Let's ban the words mother and father, brother and sister.


How's that freedom and liberty shtick of yours coming along? Cuz this sure sounds like freedom if I ever heard it!


Wait....We aren't free until we abolish boy scouts? or we aren't free until 18 year old boys can play on the girls high school hockey team?

I was just going to ignore that crap, but what you said is one of the crazier statements I have seen for a bit.

btw, it's coming along just fine, thanks for asking.
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Re: Marriage

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 09, 2013 9:04 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:In summary, gender doesn't matter.

THE DEBATE IS OVER!


Yup. Let's start letting men play on girls high school sports teams. Let's start sharing bathrooms at all ages. Let's abolish boy scouts and girl scouts. Let's abolish all dress codes. Let's ban the words mother and father, brother and sister.


How's that freedom and liberty shtick of yours coming along? Cuz this sure sounds like freedom if I ever heard it!


Wait....We aren't free until we abolish boy scouts? or we aren't free until 18 year old boys can play on the girls high school hockey team?

I was just going to ignore that crap, but what you said is one of the crazier statements I have seen for a bit.

btw, it's coming along just fine, thanks for asking.


Who are you responding to here? You seem to be trying to quote me, yet there is no quote there. I guess this is your next step in foeing me without foeing me?
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Re: Marriage

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 09, 2013 9:07 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Middle School Girls Forced Into 'Lesbian Kiss' at NY School

their daughters complained that they were forced to ask each other for kisses and pretend to be lovers during an anti-bullying presentation on homosexuality and gender identity.


http://www.christianpost.com/news/paren ... ool-94523/


I have to agree that there certainly should have been parental notification/permission for something of this nature. That being said, do you have a source that's not heavily biased?

Phatscotty wrote:
The little boy who started a sex change aged eight because he (and his lesbian parents) knew he always wanted to be a girl

Image
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tment.html


Gotta be honest, I see no problem here. Why do you? Are you going to bother answering this one?
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Re: Marriage

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 09, 2013 11:02 pm

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/05/0 ... -marriage/

Minn. House Approves Gay Marriage, 75-59

This is the right way to change marriage
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Re: Marriage

Postby Lootifer on Thu May 09, 2013 11:43 pm

Am I missing something? how is that different than any other state/country that has approved it?

(not poking or arguing here, genuine question).
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Re: Marriage

Postby thegreekdog on Fri May 10, 2013 6:53 am

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Middle School Girls Forced Into 'Lesbian Kiss' at NY School

their daughters complained that they were forced to ask each other for kisses and pretend to be lovers during an anti-bullying presentation on homosexuality and gender identity.


http://www.christianpost.com/news/paren ... ool-94523/


I have to agree that there certainly should have been parental notification/permission for something of this nature. That being said, do you have a source that's not heavily biased?

Phatscotty wrote:
The little boy who started a sex change aged eight because he (and his lesbian parents) knew he always wanted to be a girl

Image
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tment.html


Gotta be honest, I see no problem here. Why do you? Are you going to bother answering this one?


Moderators, can you please remove Phatscotty's posts to another thread? This appears to be off-topic since this topic is about gay marriage.

For that matter, you might as well move all of his posts in this thread to a different thread, since none of them are about gay marriage.
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Re: Marriage

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri May 10, 2013 10:04 am

The Simpsons episode about Valentines Day popped into my head while reading through this topic earlier this morning:

show



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Postby 2dimes on Fri May 10, 2013 10:53 am

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
The little boy who started a sex change aged eight because he (and his lesbian parents) knew he always wanted to be a girl

Image
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tment.html


Gotta be honest, I see no problem here. Why do you? Are you going to bother answering this one?
Could a person make a mistake they might regret when they're eight?

With modern medicine they can really go all out.
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Re: Marriage

Postby Lootifer on Mon May 13, 2013 7:43 pm

It wasnt simply a one step process where the kid said "I WANT TO BE A GIRL!!"

It sounds like the diagnosis is pretty sound and the symptoms have been present for a number of years (since age of 3 if the article is accurate). Since 1 in 30000 people (according to wiki article on disorder) have the disorder it was just a matter of time that a story like this popped up.
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Re: Marriage

Postby Phatscotty on Mon May 13, 2013 9:04 pm

Lootifer wrote:It wasnt simply a one step process where the kid said "I WANT TO BE A GIRL!!"

It sounds like the diagnosis is pretty sound and the symptoms have been present for a number of years (since age of 3 if the article is accurate). Since 1 in 30000 people (according to wiki article on disorder) have the disorder it was just a matter of time that a story like this popped up.



How long have married gay people been able to adopt kids?
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Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 9:54 pm

Disorder? You and the rest of the "wiki" chauvinist pigs should be put to death for calling it that. It's natural and beautiful that a little boy wants to do that.


Just kidding, I'm actually kind of neutral even though I believe he should wait to irreversibly change gender. So what side are you on again?
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Re: Marriage

Postby Baron Von PWN on Mon May 13, 2013 10:09 pm

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