Making young kids recite national anthems in schools.

[BigBallinStalin]

However, there is something about saying the pledge and listening to the national anthem that just.. matter.

Why do they matter, if those saying them don't even understand what they're saying? Please explain how that could POSSIBLY matter.

It's difficult to say, and I want to agree with you that kids don't really understand it, but those years of reciting that "mantra" may plant some kind of seed from which grows that tenuous feeling of belonging to something greater than oneself--that sense of belonging to a Nation-State. An appeal to one's individual sovereignty or rights--at the expense of the State and its perceived "national interests"--may become neglected because one belongs to the Nation ("of course"). One is an American and should abide by that foresworn allegiance or feeling of belonging.

Now, that could all be spurious, but the Pledge of Allegiance may instill that sense of belonging which later grows in some people's minds.

But if this is true, then this isn't good for it imbues in one that unquestioning feeling of Nationalism. It's that feeling expressed from people's mouths and minds when they call for a war against Afghanistan, Iraq, or for a War on Drugs, Crime, or Terrorism. It's difficult to clarify, but it seems tied to people's compliance to be taxed to provide Whatever because it's for the People, for the Nation. The individual's identity becomes one with the Nation.

It's just weird stuff, and the Dude does not abide.

[Haggis_McMutton]

It's difficult to say, and I want to agree with you that kids don't really understand it, but those years of reciting that "mantra" may plant some kind of seed from which grows that tenuous feeling of belonging to something greater than oneself--that sense of belonging to a Nation-State. An appeal to one's individual sovereignty or rights--at the expense of the State and its perceived "national interests"--may become neglected because one belongs to the Nation ("of course"). One is an American and should abide by that foresworn allegiance or feeling of belonging.

Now, that could all be spurious, but the Pledge of Allegiance may instill that sense of belonging which later grows in some people's minds.

But if this is true, then this isn't good for it imbues in one that unquestioning feeling of Nationalism. It's that feeling expressed from people's mouths and minds when they call for a war against Afghanistan, Iraq, or for a War on Drugs, Crime, or Terrorism. It's difficult to clarify, but it seems tied to people's compliance to be taxed to provide Whatever because it's for the People, for the Nation. The individual's identity becomes one with the Nation.

It's just weird stuff, and the Dude does not abide.

Yes, that's exactly it.
And in a roundabout way, Player and tzor's defending of the pledge seem to not only acknowledge, but embrace that fact. As if it's a good thing for a person to identify a higher purpose for himself as being not an ideal, but rather the country he happened to be born with.

I would call it an exercise in patriotic fervor.

...

Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into the Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.

So, this is the proof that it's not indoctrination?

---
And yeah, I agree that global warming was politicized too early in its life and that it was not done well. I also agree that the US has a worrying tendency to stuff kids with drugs when they don't behave as you want them too.
These problems don't mean that making kids mindlessly recite a declaration they cannot voluntarily make at that age is a non-issue. (unless you also think that the fact that kids are starving in Africa makes every other problem on Earth a non-issue)

[Gillipig]

Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.

Such as?

You really can't think of any!? Wow, I don't think I want to waste any time discussing it with you if you need to ask me that. Watch the news, that should give you a taste of indoctrination.

It appears to me that you're the one who couldn't think of any...

Then you should fine tune your senses. I often walk away from discussions I know I can win. If I feel like I'm talking to a brick then I just go "f*ck it, this is a waste of time" and do something else.

[Woodruff]

I don't know how you could possibly consider it NOT indoctrination. The ENTIRE POINT of the recitation is indoctrination...what other reason is there? Perhaps you can point it out for me, if it's not indoctrination?

I would call it an exercise in patriotic fervor.

That's not indoctrination? That seems like a very basic form of it to me.

While I am not going to pull a Mike Church on you, the only item of indoctrination was so effectively incorporated into the American spirit after the end of the Civil War (that is the notion that the "United States" is a singular noun and not a plural one ... "One Nation") that there is no real need to "indoctrinate" the children in the notion. (As a side note the early founders would have screamed at the thoughts in the pledge.)

To indoctrinate simply means to teach someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. And I disagree that is the only aspect that is indoctrination. The idea that this country is about "freedom and justice for all" simply is not true when looked at from a critical perspective.

So that leaves us with the pure capitalistic motive; the pledge is an excuse to sell flags. You can't pledge without a flag in every classroom.

There probably is some of that. But I don't believe it's the primary motive.

True indoctrination comes with a sugar coated package. You should check out the real indoctrination that goes on in schools these days.

Such as?

Global warming claptrap (and I'm not talking about real science but "feel good" Sesame Street level total fluff stuff) that tries to put a political message inside a nice wrapping of a song or a slogan or an image.

I have never seen global warming presented uncritically IN A SCHOOL CLASSROOM. I don't really believe it happens, to be honest with you. I've seen it presented uncritically in the news media, and at times on the internet...but not in a classroom. The only time I've seen it presented at all in a classroom was a science classroom when they were studying the effects of weather, and frankly it was very well done. I think this one is a red herring, "school wise".

Global Warming Activities for Kindergarten

Mother Earth: Hi guys! It’s me, Mother Earth. I bet you never thought I would come and chat with you today. You know, the big old world you are sitting on. Reach down and touch it - it’s me! You can jump on me, you can dance on me, you can somersault on me, you can dive into my waters, roll around on my grass, dig in my sand, and wiggle your toes in my squishy mud [building pictures in their minds]. I am the whole world: I am the oceans [point to the blue water masses on the mask], I am the land [point to the green land mass on the mask], I am the forests, I am the mountains. I hold all of the animals in the world in my arms, all the fish in the sea, all the butterflies in the air, and all the people on the earth. I am your planet, I belong to you and you belong to me and together we live a happy life.

So you don't believe that our kids should, at a very young age, consider the Earth to be a living eco-system? I'm a little confused here. I didn't watch the video, so if there's more than what you presented in the quotes, I'm interested.

[Woodruff]

Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.

Such as?

You really can't think of any!? Wow, I don't think I want to waste any time discussing it with you if you need to ask me that. Watch the news, that should give you a taste of indoctrination.

It appears to me that you're the one who couldn't think of any...

Then you should fine tune your senses. I often walk away from discussions I know I can win. If I feel like I'm talking to a brick then I just go "f*ck it, this is a waste of time" and do something else.

Sometimes, the reality and the appearance are the same.

[thegreekdog]

Yes, that's exactly it.
And in a roundabout way, Player and tzor's defending of the pledge seem to not only acknowledge, but embrace that fact. As if it's a good thing for a person to identify a higher purpose for himself as being not an ideal, but rather the country he happened to be born with.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I simply think that identifying with a higher purpose vis-a-vis "loyalty" to the United States, would give the person some sort of benefit (apart from the psychological). Were it not for loyal Americans, perhaps I would not be in the place (economically, socially) that I'm in right now. I have no problem identifying with the United States or being patriotic so long as it is done with some knowledge.

Other than the annoyance of having to recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem, why is it a bad thing? What bad things does reciting the pledge or singing the anthem cause?

[Bones2484]

Better than most of the shit we're being indoctrinated with everyday.

Such as?

You really can't think of any!? Wow, I don't think I want to waste any time discussing it with you if you need to ask me that. Watch the news, that should give you a taste of indoctrination.

It appears to me that you're the one who couldn't think of any...

Then you should fine tune your senses. I often walk away from discussions I know I can win. If I feel like I'm talking to a brick then I just go "f*ck it, this is a waste of time" and do something else.

It's really cute when people get so angry when someone only asks a simple question asking for their opinion (without any judgement or commentary attached). Especially when after they throw their little three-year-old tantrum they give an answer that isn't even a good one. I'd highly encourage Gillipig to go "do something else" more regularly.

[Woodruff]

Yes, that's exactly it.
And in a roundabout way, Player and tzor's defending of the pledge seem to not only acknowledge, but embrace that fact. As if it's a good thing for a person to identify a higher purpose for himself as being not an ideal, but rather the country he happened to be born with.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I simply think that identifying with a higher purpose vis-a-vis "loyalty" to the United States, would give the person some sort of benefit (apart from the psychological). Were it not for loyal Americans, perhaps I would not be in the place (economically, socially) that I'm in right now. I have no problem identifying with the United States or being patriotic so long as it is done with some knowledge.

I agree. I consider myself to be a very patriotic individual. Of course, some people here would probably not consider me patriotic at all, based on their perception of my positions. Patriotism isn't necessarily a bad thing (although it certainly can become one), but it must be meted with knowledge/understanding.

Other than the annoyance of having to recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem, why is it a bad thing? What bad things does reciting the pledge or singing the anthem cause?

My problem with it, as I stated previously, is that it accomplishes NOTHING, yet wastes classroom time.

[tzor]

My problem with it, as I stated previously, is that it accomplishes NOTHING, yet wastes classroom time.

I wouldn't say it accomplishes "nothing." At the very least it is a common distracting activity that focuses the random attention of children before the start of class to a common activity, severing any distractions they had before the start of class and allowing them to refocus on the first class of the day.

And it really accomplishes the same thing with adults who are in organizations that always start their meetings with the pledge.

I have memories of childhood days lining up outside by class and going through the banner/pledge.

[tzor]

And in a roundabout way, Player and tzor's defending of the pledge seem to not only acknowledge, but embrace that fact. As if it's a good thing for a person to identify a higher purpose for himself as being not an ideal, but rather the country he happened to be born with.

I should point out that the pledge only pledges to the flag and the republic. The rest describe the republic, with a little rubbing salt into the Southern states who attempted to secede.

[Phatscotty]

What if the pledge were "with Equality and Justice for all..."

Would anyone feel differently?

[tzor]

So you don't believe that our kids should, at a very young age, consider the Earth to be a living eco-system? I'm a little confused here. I didn't watch the video, so if there's more than what you presented in the quotes, I'm interested.

I get a little nervous when people try to anthropomorphise a planet. I get nervous when you have to simplify things to the point of making things incorrect.

Mother Earth: I have begun to get a bit of a fever because some of the people who live on me are making me sick with the dirty gas in their cars, stinky smoke that comes from factories, and icky garbage. You might have felt this way once if you ever got into a car that had been sitting parked in the sun for a long time with the windows shut. When it gets this hot inside of a car the ice cream melts, the flowers you picked bend over and lose their petals, and you feel really uncomfortable because it is SO hot.

I am getting warmer and warmer, just like this car and the reason I am getting hot is because when certain things called fossil fuels are burned the smoke from the burning goes up into the sky to create a kind of a roof on top of the sky! Can you imagine what a roof on top of the sky would be like? The gas people put into cars is a fossil fuel and when you drive around in the car, all the smoke that comes out of the pipe in the back goes up into the sky. When so much smoke goes up into the sky it builds a big roof over the sky and this roof keeps all the hot air from going back out to space, just like the roof of a car! With this roof and heat, I am starting to get sick and my sickness is called Global Warming. I came to you because I knew you would understand and I know how smart you are, and I know you can help. A lot of grownups are helping too. But, I need the help of all the little children of the world to make me better because, if we work together, we can make me a happy and healthy place to live for all the little children and animals in the world.

Global warming gasses do not come from only "dirty" gas, and not only when the smoke is "stinky" and methane production from landfills is something almost everyone avoids these days but then again it doesn't come from "icky" garbage (banana peels can also decompose into methane). But getting children to then "act" on this sloppy information only serves to turn them against their parents.

Oh and hot air going into space? Let's not tell our kids fantasy.

[Woodruff]

My problem with it, as I stated previously, is that it accomplishes NOTHING, yet wastes classroom time.

I wouldn't say it accomplishes "nothing." At the very least it is a common distracting activity that focuses the random attention of children before the start of class to a common activity, severing any distractions they had before the start of class and allowing them to refocus on the first class of the day.

Teachers already have this, if they've had even a modicum of teaching experience. I have a five-minute activity for my high school students to start out each class. We call it our "bell-ringer activity".

[Woodruff]

What if the pledge were "with Equality and Justice for all..."

Would anyone feel differently?

It still wouldn't accomplish anything, and it would still waste classroom time.

But that's ok, because then you have more reason to rail on about how teachers' unions are ruining the world, right?

[Woodruff]

So you don't believe that our kids should, at a very young age, consider the Earth to be a living eco-system? I'm a little confused here. I didn't watch the video, so if there's more than what you presented in the quotes, I'm interested.

I get a little nervous when people try to anthropomorphise a planet. I get nervous when you have to simplify things to the point of making things incorrect.

You get nervous when people have to simplify things FOR KINDERGARTNERS?

[Woodruff]

Oh and hot air going into space? Let's not tell our kids fantasy.

<cough>IntelligentDesign<cough><cough>

[tzor]

You get nervous when people have to simplify things FOR KINDERGARTNERS?

That's not simplification. That's pseudo-religious indoctrination, brainwashing and evangelization. The whole exercise is to get kindergarteners to go against their parents.

[tzor]

<cough>IntelligentDesign<cough><cough>

As the term is generally understood? Yes it's horrid and should not be taught ... definitely fantasy.

[Woodruff]

You get nervous when people have to simplify things FOR KINDERGARTNERS?

That's not simplification. That's pseudo-religious indoctrination, brainwashing and evangelization. The whole exercise is to get kindergarteners to go against their parents.

"To get kindergartners to go against their parents?" Do you even think about what you're typing, or is it just some sort of a surreal exercise in self-masturbation?

I mean...there's not even a sensical response to the statement due to the absolute absurdity behind it.

[Woodruff]

<cough>IntelligentDesign<cough><cough>

As the term is generally understood? Yes it's horrid and should not be taught ... definitely fantasy.

NOT "as the term is generally understood"...I'm talking about the real deal. Intelligent Design is fantasy that does not follow the scientific method. It sure as hell isn't science.

[Symmetry]

When I was at school in the US I just stood up during the pledge without speaking.

Nothing wrong with that at all. It shows respect for those around you and what they're doing, but without requiring that you comply.

To be honest, my first day, I just tried to mumble my way through the words. I had no idea what was going on. Didn't know the ritual, didn't know the words, wasn't expecting it. Thankfully my home room teacher looked out for me and, yeah, I think that was a fair compromise.