General Rest in Peace thread

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Re: General Rest in Peace thread

Postby Serbia on Sun May 12, 2013 10:37 pm

Army of GOD wrote:"Gillipig is a unimaginative dickbag"?


AN*

Bollocks.
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Re: General Rest in Peace thread

Postby Gillipig on Mon May 13, 2013 1:56 am

Dukasaur wrote:
Gillipig wrote:"Rest in peace" is a pretty empty saying if you don't believe in a diety. So atheists have to find some other cliche sentence to use in these circumstances.

Incorrect. Rest does not require a diety, only a struggle to rest from.

Explain this to me. How are you supposed to "rest" if there is no afterlife? If you don't believe in an afterlife, then expressing your wish for a person to "rest" in it is obviously an empty expression. Because you don't think he can rest, be anxious, be in pain etc, and if you do you're not really an atheist. An atheist could say "may his memory rest in peace" or something like that, expressing the wish that people won't start viewing this person in bad light, but wishing he himself should rest in peace is quite silly if you don't believe in god.
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Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 6:26 am

Afterlife will not be rest. A person's memory will not be at rest until it is no longer used, that might be the memories death. We know who my great grandfather was but not his father.

Rest offered in death may be more significant for an atheist, especially if it follows a period of pain.
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Re: General Rest in Peace thread

Postby Dukasaur on Mon May 13, 2013 7:18 am

Gillipig wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
Gillipig wrote:"Rest in peace" is a pretty empty saying if you don't believe in a diety. So atheists have to find some other cliche sentence to use in these circumstances.

Incorrect. Rest does not require a diety, only a struggle to rest from.

Explain this to me. How are you supposed to "rest" if there is no afterlife? If you don't believe in an afterlife, then expressing your wish for a person to "rest" in it is obviously an empty expression. Because you don't think he can rest, be anxious, be in pain etc, and if you do you're not really an atheist. An atheist could say "may his memory rest in peace" or something like that, expressing the wish that people won't start viewing this person in bad light, but wishing he himself should rest in peace is quite silly if you don't believe in god.

2dimes wrote:Afterlife will not be rest. A person's memory will not be at rest until it is no longer used, that might be the memories death. We know who my great grandfather was but not his father.

Rest offered in death may be more significant for an atheist, especially if it follows a period of pain.
.
That's the basic answer. If all of life is suffering and anguish, then death is a release, not a punishment...

Schopenhauer wrote:“If the immediate and direct purpose of our life is not suffering then our existence is the most Ill-adapted to its purpose in the world: for it is absurd to suppose that the endless affliction of which the world is everywhere full, and which arises out of the need and distress pertaining essentially to life, should be purposeless and purely accidental. Each individual misfortune, to be sure, seems an exceptional occurrence; but misfortune in general is the rule.”


Other non-deist answers are possible as well. There are numerous variations of spiritualist beliefs which allow for a soul and reincarnation without requiring a deity.

Beyond that, there are Platonic speculations, where life and death are equally illusory. If our existence is just the dream of a madman, then our death is just another phase in the dream.

So, there's at least 3 answers. I could go on, but I think three examples is enough to crush your dreams of building a successful hypothesis.
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Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 7:38 am

Dukasaur wrote:If our existence is just the dream of a madman, then our death is just another phase in the dream.


Is it madness or something we can't understand, most easily explained away with the term?
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Re: General Rest in Peace thread

Postby Gillipig on Mon May 13, 2013 7:40 am

Dukasaur wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
Gillipig wrote:"Rest in peace" is a pretty empty saying if you don't believe in a diety. So atheists have to find some other cliche sentence to use in these circumstances.

Incorrect. Rest does not require a diety, only a struggle to rest from.

Explain this to me. How are you supposed to "rest" if there is no afterlife? If you don't believe in an afterlife, then expressing your wish for a person to "rest" in it is obviously an empty expression. Because you don't think he can rest, be anxious, be in pain etc, and if you do you're not really an atheist. An atheist could say "may his memory rest in peace" or something like that, expressing the wish that people won't start viewing this person in bad light, but wishing he himself should rest in peace is quite silly if you don't believe in god.

2dimes wrote:Afterlife will not be rest. A person's memory will not be at rest until it is no longer used, that might be the memories death. We know who my great grandfather was but not his father.

Rest offered in death may be more significant for an atheist, especially if it follows a period of pain.
.
That's the basic answer. If all of life is suffering and anguish, then death is a release, not a punishment...

Schopenhauer wrote:“If the immediate and direct purpose of our life is not suffering then our existence is the most Ill-adapted to its purpose in the world: for it is absurd to suppose that the endless affliction of which the world is everywhere full, and which arises out of the need and distress pertaining essentially to life, should be purposeless and purely accidental. Each individual misfortune, to be sure, seems an exceptional occurrence; but misfortune in general is the rule.”


Other non-deist answers are possible as well. There are numerous variations of spiritualist beliefs which allow for a soul and reincarnation without requiring a deity.

Beyond that, there are Platonic speculations, where life and death are equally illusory. If our existence is just the dream of a madman, then our death is just another phase in the dream.

So, there's at least 3 answers. I could go on, but I think three examples is enough to crush your dreams of building a successful hypothesis.

I can't believe I have to say this but the feeling of relief is a feeling, and if there isn't an afterlife how are you supposed to feel anything? That cherished feeling of not feeling anything is an illusion. You don't know what it's like to feel nothing, you've felt something all your life, you don't die when you go to sleep, if you think being dead is like resting you will.......I was about to say "be disappointed" but that's the thing, you won't be that either. Feeling nothing is not the same as resting, you don't die when you go to bed.
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Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 7:42 am

So you have never been injured?
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Re:

Postby Gillipig on Mon May 13, 2013 7:45 am

2dimes wrote:So you have never been injured?

Never so badly I've died no. Do you have a "back from the other side" story to tell us?
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Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 7:56 am

No but when I have had any bad injuries I don't feel them during sleep. It's the only time to "rest" from the pain. I took a generic Tylenol 3 copy that so far was the only narcotic that functioned on me. It was similar yet different. It offered distraction instead of rest. It did make it easier at times to go to sleep which then offered rest.
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Re:

Postby Gillipig on Mon May 13, 2013 8:20 am

2dimes wrote:No but when I have had any bad injuries I don't feel them during sleep. It's the only time to "rest" from the pain. I took a generic Tylenol 3 copy that so far was the only narcotic that functioned on me. It was similar yet different. It offered distraction instead of rest. It did make it easier at times to go to sleep which then offered rest.

Yeah well you're not dead when you take some painkillers and go to bed. Just because you're not conscious doesn't mean you don't feel anything. I may be sleeping heavy on painkillers but if someone pours a bucket of water on me and starts beating me up, I wake up pretty quickly. I couldn't do that if I didn't feel anything.
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Re:

Postby Dukasaur on Mon May 13, 2013 8:31 am

2dimes wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:If our existence is just the dream of a madman, then our death is just another phase in the dream.


Is it madness or something we can't understand, most easily explained away with the term?

A modern variation of the dream paradox suggests that we're avatars in a MUDD, a simulation being run by a superior intelligence. So, yes. If I get you correctly, you could run the argument completely around the atheist track and come back to a deist part of the stadium, where "superior intelligence" is a type of god.
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Re: General Rest in Peace thread

Postby Dukasaur on Mon May 13, 2013 8:38 am

Gillipig wrote:I can't believe I have to say this but the feeling of relief is a feeling, and if there isn't an afterlife how are you supposed to feel anything? That cherished feeling of not feeling anything is an illusion. You don't know what it's like to feel nothing, you've felt something all your life, you don't die when you go to sleep, if you think being dead is like resting you will.......I was about to say "be disappointed" but that's the thing, you won't be that either. Feeling nothing is not the same as resting, you don't die when you go to bed.

Possibly. Or, if it's the last thing that you ever feel, perhaps it subjectively feels like an eternity.

Time dilation is a common effect as brain activity is reduced. Perhaps as brain activity approaches zero, time dilation approaches infinity. Sort of the "falling into a black hole" effect. So, while your death (time from failure of macrofunction to loss of all local brain function) might take only a few seconds, it might subjectively feel like it takes forever.

In any case, you didn't address the other two possibilities.
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Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 8:51 am

Gillipig wrote: Just because you're not conscious doesn't mean you don't feel anything.

That is exactly what it means. My back hurt all the time while awake. When I slept, I rested peacefully away from all the effects of the pain. When I woke up the pain was still there.

I explained the difference between rest and distraction. You either deny it or don't understand. Rest was the time when there is no pain.

Most pain killers have no effect on me. When I took the narcotic that did it altered my mind and gave me something to do mentally instead of noticing the pain. The pain was there, I just did not mind it, at times I would find it amusing or something else. Some prefer the pills because the pain never interrupts them. As they wore off it was near the time to take one again.

Some sleeps are deeper than others.
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Re: Re:

Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 8:56 am

Dukasaur wrote:
2dimes wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:If our existence is just the dream of a madman, then our death is just another phase in the dream.


Is it madness or something we can't understand, most easily explained away with the term?

A modern variation of the dream paradox suggests that we're avatars in a MUDD, a simulation being run by a superior intelligence. So, yes. If I get you correctly, you could run the argument completely around the atheist track and come back to a deist part of the stadium, where "superior intelligence" is a type of god.

What's MUDD?

I was questioning the "mad" part of "madman".
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Re:

Postby Gillipig on Mon May 13, 2013 9:39 am

2dimes wrote:
Gillipig wrote: Just because you're not conscious doesn't mean you don't feel anything.

That is exactly what it means. My back hurt all the time while awake. When I slept, I rested peacefully away from all the effects of the pain. When I woke up the pain was still there.

I explained the difference between rest and distraction. You either deny it or don't understand. Rest was the time when there is no pain.

Most pain killers have no effect on me. When I took the narcotic that did it altered my mind and gave me something to do mentally instead of noticing the pain. The pain was there, I just did not mind it, at times I would find it amusing or something else. Some prefer the pills because the pain never interrupts them. As they wore off it was near the time to take one again.

Some sleeps are deeper than others.

No, it's you who either don't understand or are in denial. Do you think you are just one aspect of your brain? Just because the conscious part of your brain is temporarily turned off doesn't mean you are not feeling anything. Your conscious part and your unconscious part are two parts of you, one of them never shuts down until you die, that is the unconscious part. You claim to know how it's like when both parts are shut off. No matter how packed with painkillers you've been you've never managed to turn off your brain anymore than I have. You are not just your conscious part, you are your unconscious part as well. Or is it someone else dreaming for you during the night?
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