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daddy1gringo wrote:2: That 1 thing is the usual, "The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."
Viceroy63 wrote:The way I understand the ownership situation is that the British, who owned it all at the time, divided the land fairly between the two peoples of Jewish and Palestinians.
Viceroy63 wrote:The way I understand the ownership situation is that the British, who owned it all at the time, divided the land fairly
Right, that's the slight variation: "I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop." and the other side has their facts and figures to prove their dialectus fizz goop, etc., etc. But once you jettison all the partisan dialectus fizz goop, it's a perfectly equitable plan, like you said.saxitoxin wrote:daddy1gringo wrote:2: That 1 thing is the usual, "The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."
Uhhh ... no. That's how Israel presents the Palestinian position, not how I presented it and certainly not how the Palestinians themselves view it. Israel has no legal position so their PR agencies in the U.S. tell people that "this is just a centuries old conflict of he said/she said, what can ya do?"
This is not a centuries old conflict, it is only a few decades old. It is not an existential idea of "was it Palestinian or Jewish land," but a question of property rights to individual lots of land - physical houses, land acreage, etc., which were voided.There is a room of records in both Amman and London that contains actual, physical deeds and house titles issued by the British Mandatory government to individual people that still have universal legality. The owners of that land had eminent domain brought down on their property and were kicked out, without compensation, by the Israeli government.
Do you own a house? If the government showed up tomorrow, told you to move out, that a Ukrainian family needed it, would you want to be paid the full value for your house? Or would you say "sure, no problem - take it!" Palestinians, like most people in the U.S. or France or anywhere in the west, had the bulk of their individual net worth invested in their homes. The entire personal wealth of hundreds of thousands of people was wiped-out, virtually overnight.
daddy1gringo wrote:Right, that's the slight variation: "I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop." and the other side has their facts and figures to prove their dialectus fizz goop, etc., etc. But once you jettison all the partisan dialectus fizz goop, it's a perfectly equitable plan, like you said.saxitoxin wrote:daddy1gringo wrote:2: That 1 thing is the usual, "The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."
Uhhh ... no. That's how Israel presents the Palestinian position, not how I presented it and certainly not how the Palestinians themselves view it. Israel has no legal position so their PR agencies in the U.S. tell people that "this is just a centuries old conflict of he said/she said, what can ya do?"
This is not a centuries old conflict, it is only a few decades old. It is not an existential idea of "was it Palestinian or Jewish land," but a question of property rights to individual lots of land - physical houses, land acreage, etc., which were voided.There is a room of records in both Amman and London that contains actual, physical deeds and house titles issued by the British Mandatory government to individual people that still have universal legality. The owners of that land had eminent domain brought down on their property and were kicked out, without compensation, by the Israeli government.
Do you own a house? If the government showed up tomorrow, told you to move out, that a Ukrainian family needed it, would you want to be paid the full value for your house? Or would you say "sure, no problem - take it!" Palestinians, like most people in the U.S. or France or anywhere in the west, had the bulk of their individual net worth invested in their homes. The entire personal wealth of hundreds of thousands of people was wiped-out, virtually overnight.
"I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."
BigBallinStalin wrote:I read the article about Bush, but I couldn't confirm that he stated:"I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."
Anyway, I never knew. It's an interesting turn around.
Sax, do you have a list of the other presidents changing their minds about this issue?
(so that I can easily read them all, instead of spending 20 min googling around).
premio53 wrote:The Jews are one of the foundation stones of proof that the Bible is inspired by God. They are a chosen race that that can never be destroyed. It is through them that the Jewish Messiah came into the world 2,000 year ago and in the near future (during the battle of Armageddon) their Messiah whom they rejected the first time will return to save them from extinction.
Jeremiah 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
The history of "The Wandering Jew" is one of persecution throughout the church age in country after country. The fact that they have been preserved as a separate race while being scattered around the world and having no country to call their own for 2500 years is beyond human comprehension.
I grew up in the South during the civil rights movement and saw first hand the hatred of the Jewish people. The Ku Klux Klan hated them more than they did the Black race and charged them with trying to destroy the White race through interracial marriages while keeping themselves separate, similar to what Hitler did.
Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.
2dimes wrote:Well, it seems odd doesn't it? More than once they have been threatened with extinction.
A group kills 6 million of them. Meticulously records it since they are planning to wipe out every last one. Several decades later people argue about it with some going so far that they say, "6million? That can't be right." all the way down to out right denial.
What can you tell us about some of the much more recent genocides like the Kurds?
2dimes wrote:I'm not suggesting your personal knowledge is lacking. I find it strange that so many pretty large scale genocides are seemingly forgotten by society as a whole. Yet so many people keep wanting to discuss Israel. Often either to down play things or exaggerate them.
Symmetry wrote:2dimes wrote:I'm not suggesting your personal knowledge is lacking. I find it strange that so many pretty large scale genocides are seemingly forgotten by society as a whole. Yet so many people keep wanting to discuss Israel. Often either to down play things or exaggerate them.
Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?
Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?
2dimes wrote:Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?
I'm not sure it's possible to discuss genocide in a balanced way. If you found someone who could you would have to make sure no one else could over hear the conversation.
I don't know if I can discuss the holocaust without emotion. I don't have access to absolute facts that I trust completely. What's the real number of Jewish people killed, 6 million even?
I am often surprise by people that have do not even have basic knowledge of many other more recent genocides. They can't be blamed though. No one talks about them.
Bring up something like Pol Pot. I couldn't tell you what country he was in without looking it up. Many people will ask, "Who?" or at best say, " Sounds familiar.."
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