Post Any Evidence For God Here

[waauw]

I fully know the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. I wasn't referencing a change in the sum. I was referencing the usefulness. For example: a tree burns to ashes. Energy is released into the atmosphere as heat. The sum is of energy and mass is unchanged, but try doing something with that pile of ash and released energy. That's all I was saying.

It's not because we as humans are still too uncapable to transform certain types of matter into other types, that it is impossible in nature. Even ashes and all that released energy get redistributed into the eco-system.

You think that because we don't know something it must be God? This is the exact same attitude the Catholic church used to have in the middle ages and it didn't get us very far

Well, the Inquisition period was an awful time for Catholic church and this corrupt situation led to the reformation in the 1580's with Martin Luther.

So I'm with you that irrational thinking can be very bad to society.

Also you incorrectly state my thinking. I don't think because we don't know something it must be God... For I base my belief that there is a God on several reasons.
1. The Bible. This series of books combined into one book shows that humans wrote about:
a. scientific things 500-1000 years before mankind knew about things like the earth was a sphere, was balanced rotating on an axis, that the earth revolved around the sun, that the sun's gravity pulled the planets of the solar system, etc
b. Historical things: The cities in the Bible have perfectly paralleled archeology.
c. Prophecies: There are 2,000 prophecies in the Bible that people wrote about events would happen before they happened. This is beyond human abilities.
d. Health: The Bible discusses sanitation and hygiene 1,000 years before germ theory of Louis Pasteur. The Bible talks about the division between ligaments/tendons/muscle before medicine mapped out the body. The Bible tells that life is in the blood 1000's of years before medicine discerns the same.
e. There is no error, no contradiction in God's word. Time tested.

2. Creation: I see the complexities of creation and know there is intelligence behind the order. It's illogical to say Chance caused all given enough time. That is a leap of faith. A non-provable, non-verifiable hypothesis. Which means it's faith based.

3. I see changes that occur in people that place there faith in God.
4. Jesus believed in an accurate and true word of God. And His resurrection from the dead has sealed the deal for me that there is a God and He created all.

Well actually the inquisition came after the middle ages, but as the church policy didn't really change, I guess it doesn't matter. Just wanted to mention that

Anyway, here are my answers:

1a. Actually humankind knew about astronomy far before the Bible was written. Just go check the history of ancient egypt, the ancient mayans, ancient sumerians, ...
Also let me point out that the christian church did refute heliocentrism for many centuries, until the age of enlightenment broke out. Just look at history how Galileo's work was suppressed.
1b. That does not prove anything. When Agatha Christie wrote Hercule Poirot, she also wrote about real existent cities. That doesn't mean Hercule Poirot actually existed.
1c. Keep in mind that the dating of these predictions can be fictional. There is no proof all these predictions were made in time, that all the outcomes actually happened or that all these predictions came from your god. Sure some of them might have actually happened, but without any conclusive proof that it came from god, it might as well have been normal people who observed in a rational way. It doesn't take a divine entity to read the weather or to predict that the earth will end somewhere in the future.
1d. It doesn't take a divine entity to know that you have to live cleanly to live more healthy. The ancient romans, the ancient greeks, the ancient chinese, ... Everybody knew that. All it takes is good observation. Also you don't have to map out the entire body to know that the body consists of muscles, bones and every other kind of tissue. Any surgeon/doctor of any era can tell you that.
1e. There are plenty of contradictions in the Bible. a quick search on google will easily find you examples of this:
http://listverse.com/2013/03/20/10-bible-contradictions-that-arent/

2. Again there you got stating that you KNOW that there is intelligence behind it all. Even I am not that arrogant to say that I know that that it is impossible that we've been created by a God entity. You should not be that arrogant either. You don't have conclusive proof, hence you just think or believe it. And I would like to accentuate the difference between to think and to believe. Because there is good argumentation behind evolutionism. It isn't perfect, I agree, but that does not make it a belief system. In the business world people are uncertain of all kinds of things all the time, but does that mean they act on everything purely out of faith? No! They act on a premeditated and precalculated chance. This is also how theories like evolutionism got so popular. It is until now the [url]best fitting[/url] model(I recognize just a theory still).

3. People change, nature changes, society changes, ... Changes aren't exclusive to christians.
4. There isn't even complete evidence that your Jesus-figure was how he is described in the Bible. There is quite some evidence that shows Jesus was not a miracle man, nor was he of poor desent. According to recent archeological findings he might have been a rich and educated person who came up for the rights of the common man, a bit like Mahatma Ghandi.Additionally you should realise that because a good man believes in something, does not make it the truth. Even good men can be wrong.

[tzor]

Are you "searching for God" or have you "found God"? By which I mean are you still trying to come to terms with and understand the nuances and subtleties of the divine mind, or have you got it figured out and do you now know exactly what it is God is saying to us in whatever force of nature or holy book or whatever you attribute to Him?

I don't think by your definition I have "found God." He's right in front of my face and I still can't find Him. One of these days, I might try opening my eyes.

[crispybits]

Are you "searching for God" or have you "found God"? By which I mean are you still trying to come to terms with and understand the nuances and subtleties of the divine mind, or have you got it figured out and do you now know exactly what it is God is saying to us in whatever force of nature or holy book or whatever you attribute to Him?

I don't think by your definition I have "found God." He's right in front of my face and I still can't find Him. One of these days, I might try opening my eyes.

OK, so forgetting for the moment when you become one with God in Heaven (or whatever alternative to that you believe), talking purely about during this human life, do you think it's possible you will ever "find" God, by which I mean do you think it's possible that you (or anyone else) can ever know the mind/ego/etc of God, with 100% certainty?

[crispybits]

For me "kinds" is not limited to if fertilization can or can't occur. For Great Dane female won't have offspring from a tea cup Maltes. Yet both are the same "Kind": Dog. So fertilization is one of many factors. The others would include hormone production of the endocrine and exocrine systems. For the hormone production from the Pituitary gland will cause desire and readiness of the male and female for copulation. Another is appetite: I can't think of an example of an herbivore mating with a carnivore. Another separation of "kind" is habitat. The dividing line of whether a creature lives in water, or desert, or mountains or ice, or tropical region is a distinction of "kind". Also mode of movement: There are no examples of bipedal creature mating with a quadripod or a creature that has no legs. Another example skin: Scales Vs exoskeleton Vs feathers Vs etc.... Another is nurturing process for newborns: Marsupials have a pouch for their young to grow on a hidden teat, Birds have shell that provides nutrition during the embryonic phase, butterflies have a cocoon, mammals produce milk for their young, etc.... Another distinction of Kind is sleeping patterns: for some creatures are nocturnal and would sleep during the day and vice versa. Another distinction of Kind is how they gain nutrition: For plants use photosynthesis, some have 1 stomach, some 2 stomachs.

So a small list (but not limited to) of distinction that help to define "kind" is:
1. Ovum
2. Sperm
3. Capitulate Enzyme for dissolving ovum
4. skin
5. size
6. diet
7. mode of transporation
8. location
9. birthing process
10. rearing process
11. sleep process
12. source of heating body
13. source of gaining energy.
14. This list just keeps going, I'm not God and it may be fully beyond my abilities to know in full beyond the obvious that we can see, feel, observe, test.

Please keep in mind the the classification of species by mankind is created by mankind and though it's a great source of information and helpful, it is unlikely to match up with God's definition of "kind".

I hope this answers your question.

Well, there is no single definition of species that is universal to all arguments (click for details). Ernst May's definition, used in many textbooks, is "groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations, which are reproductively isolated from other such groups". This satisfies everything in your list, including the first 3 points which seem to be your main point of attack on the theory of evolution.

A definition of what a species is doesn't prove evolution, but if you're going to argue for an alternative then we need to crystallise where the difference is. Evolution as a theory has made predictions which have been found to be true as our knowledge of genetics and technology to allow genetic mapping have advanced. For instance, it was found that chimpanzees have 48 chromosones, and humans only have 46. Before we could fully map the genetic codes, there was a strong argument that this showed that we could not be as closely (or at all) related to chimpanzees as evolution predicted, and that evolution had failed as a theory.

With the advent of more advanced techniques, we have found a fused chromosone within the genetic code of humans. We know it's fused because a chromosone will have a certain structure. Without bombarding the thread with images, imagine a chromosone as EGGGAGGGE where the Gs are genetic information, the A is a dominant protein(?), and the Es are end markers which define where the chromosone starts and ends. We've found these in the overall chimpanzee and human genetic code:

Chimp: EGGGAGGGE EGGGAGGGE (two chromosone)
Human: EGGGGGGEEGGGAGGGE (single chromosone)

The existence of the two end markers in the middle of one of our chromosones satisfies the prediction made by evolution, before this fusing was known about. We can even identify where exactly in each genetic code the two relevant chromosones are.

Now, if humans were a separate "kind" to chimpanzees, set in stone and never able to change, then there is no reason anyone has presented (as far as I know, and I'm not claiming extensive knowledge of genetics) why there should be a fused chromosone pair there, when all of our other chromosones are unfused.

When we search for knowledge, we value that knowledge that has the most accurate explanatory and predictive power. As we can see in the example above, and that's just one example amongst many, evolution has not only described how something happened and came to be, but also predicted something that with the advance of technology was later found to be true.

By contrast, the "kinds" argument doesn't describe scientifically how things got the way they are, God just made them that way. It doesn't predict anything except that we'll never see one species splitting into different species over time. But the evidence we're finding is that this prediction is inaccurate, as our knowledge of genetics is finding more and more evidence that this does happen. Yes a lizard splits into two lizards, but you have to remember that we're not talking about creating a brand new species outside of the lizard family, but rather just a new species of lizard. Eventually, as genetic differences accumulate over time, those two branches of the lizard family tree may become so different that some may view them as different "kinds" (like komodo dragons and slow worms for example), but we're not trying to climb back up the tree and come down a different branch, we're simply adding more branches from where we are now.

(argument taken from this video, it's only 4 minutes 22 seconds and is basically a repeat of what I've typed but it's here to show I'm not just making this up)

[tzor]

OK, so forgetting for the moment when you become one with God in Heaven (or whatever alternative to that you believe), talking purely about during this human life, do you think it's possible you will ever "find" God, by which I mean do you think it's possible that you (or anyone else) can ever know the mind/ego/etc of God, with 100% certainty?

I don't think anyone can know anything with 100% certainty ... my knowledge of science fiction pretty much assures me of that. And yes, I think it is possible for people to know the mind of God, in so much as it is possible for a human mind to know the mind of God. You do have examples of great mystics and visionaries who have experienced such things. It's hardly evidence, as it is at best hearsay, and generally only vagely studied, so hardly suitable for "evidence" but these people have existed and do exist.

[universalchiro]

I fully know the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. I wasn't referencing a change in the sum. I was referencing the usefulness. For example: a tree burns to ashes. Energy is released into the atmosphere as heat. The sum is of energy and mass is unchanged, but try doing something with that pile of ash and released energy. That's all I was saying.

It's not because we as humans are still too uncapable to transform certain types of matter into other types, that it is impossible in nature. Even ashes and all that released energy get redistributed into the eco-system.

You think that because we don't know something it must be God? This is the exact same attitude the Catholic church used to have in the middle ages and it didn't get us very far

Well, the Inquisition period was an awful time for Catholic church and this corrupt situation led to the reformation in the 1580's with Martin Luther.

So I'm with you that irrational thinking can be very bad to society.

Also you incorrectly state my thinking. I don't think because we don't know something it must be God... For I base my belief that there is a God on several reasons.
1. The Bible. This series of books combined into one book shows that humans wrote about:
a. scientific things 500-1000 years before mankind knew about things like the earth was a sphere, was balanced rotating on an axis, that the earth revolved around the sun, that the sun's gravity pulled the planets of the solar system, etc
b. Historical things: The cities in the Bible have perfectly paralleled archeology.
c. Prophecies: There are 2,000 prophecies in the Bible that people wrote about events would happen before they happened. This is beyond human abilities.
d. Health: The Bible discusses sanitation and hygiene 1,000 years before germ theory of Louis Pasteur. The Bible talks about the division between ligaments/tendons/muscle before medicine mapped out the body. The Bible tells that life is in the blood 1000's of years before medicine discerns the same.
e. There is no error, no contradiction in God's word. Time tested.

2. Creation: I see the complexities of creation and know there is intelligence behind the order. It's illogical to say Chance caused all given enough time. That is a leap of faith. A non-provable, non-verifiable hypothesis. Which means it's faith based.

3. I see changes that occur in people that place there faith in God.
4. Jesus believed in an accurate and true word of God. And His resurrection from the dead has sealed the deal for me that there is a God and He created all.

Well actually the inquisition came after the middle ages, but as the church policy didn't really change, I guess it doesn't matter. Just wanted to mention that

Anyway, here are my answers:

1a. Actually humankind knew about astronomy far before the Bible was written. Just go check the history of ancient egypt, the ancient mayans, ancient sumerians, ...
Also let me point out that the christian church did refute heliocentrism for many centuries, until the age of enlightenment broke out. Just look at history how Galileo's work was suppressed.
1b. That does not prove anything. When Agatha Christie wrote Hercule Poirot, she also wrote about real existent cities. That doesn't mean Hercule Poirot actually existed.
1c. Keep in mind that the dating of these predictions can be fictional. There is no proof all these predictions were made in time, that all the outcomes actually happened or that all these predictions came from your god. Sure some of them might have actually happened, but without any conclusive proof that it came from god, it might as well have been normal people who observed in a rational way. It doesn't take a divine entity to read the weather or to predict that the earth will end somewhere in the future.
1d. It doesn't take a divine entity to know that you have to live cleanly to live more healthy. The ancient romans, the ancient greeks, the ancient chinese, ... Everybody knew that. All it takes is good observation. Also you don't have to map out the entire body to know that the body consists of muscles, bones and every other kind of tissue. Any surgeon/doctor of any era can tell you that.
1e. There are plenty of contradictions in the Bible. a quick search on google will easily find you examples of this:
http://listverse.com/2013/03/20/10-bible-contradictions-that-arent/

Very bad research techniques.
A. You don't know there are contradictions, you only are basing this on what people have told you. Find them and we'll talk.
B. Your evidence is not supportive of your view at all.
C. The "church", did refute a truth. But who were they that was refuting? They were corrupt selling forgiveness, they were irrational. essentially they were people that had drifted far from God and His teachings. Hence this led to the reformation.
D. Just because the Egyptians and other cultures had some astronomy concepts, doesn't refute the inspiration of the Bible being God breathed. For God could of inspired their culture as well.

2. Again there you got stating that you KNOW that there is intelligence behind it all. Even I am not that arrogant to say that I know that that it is impossible that we've been created by a God entity. You should not be that arrogant either. You don't have conclusive proof, hence you just think or believe it. And I would like to accentuate the difference between to think and to believe. Because there is good argumentation behind evolutionism. It isn't perfect, I agree, but that does not make it a belief system. In the business world people are uncertain of all kinds of things all the time, but does that mean they act on everything purely out of faith? No! They act on a premeditated and precalculated chance. This is also how theories like evolutionism got so popular. It is until now the [url]best fitting[/url] model(I recognize just a theory still).

Why come at me with such venom. For Evolutionist proclaim they are teaching from fact and yet they have only a hypothesis. And you don't respond to any of them with the same language. Please be consistent.

4. There isn't even complete evidence that your Jesus-figure was how he is described in the Bible. There is quite some evidence that shows Jesus was not a miracle man, nor was he of poor desent. According to recent archeological findings he might have been a rich and educated person who came up for the rights of the common man, a bit like Mahatma Ghandi.Additionally you should realise that because a good man believes in something, does not make it the truth. Even good men can be wrong.

You might as well of said, "not uh"... There is evidence that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave 3 days later. There are secular writings of Josephus, a non-believer that wrote about Jesus.And of course there is the Bible that describes over 500 people saw the resurrected Christ.

[Symmetry]

You might as well of said, "not uh"... There is evidence that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave 3 days later. There are secular writings of Josephus, a non-believer that wrote about Jesus.And of course there is the Bible that describes over 500 people saw the resurrected Christ.

The historian E. Mary Smallwood wrote:
"[Josephus] was conceited, not only about his own learning but also about the opinions held of him as commander both by the Galileans and by the Romans; he was guilty of shocking duplicity at Jotapata, saving himself by sacrifice of his companions; he was too naive to see how he stood condemned out of his own mouth for his conduct, and yet no words were too harsh when he was blackening his opponents; and after landing, however involuntarily, in the Roman camp, he turned his captivity to his own advantage, and benefitted for the rest of his days from his change of side".[17]
Author Joseph Raymond calls Josephus "the Jewish Benedict Arnold" for betraying his own troops at Jotapata.[18]

Huh. I guess you consider him trustworthy anyway?

[universalchiro]

I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

One of the reasons people don't believe in the Bible, is because scientist are calculating life on earth to be billions of years old and the Bible describes life began on earth maybe 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. The two are complete opposites, so both can't be correct. Since most of the world is declaring science is correct and the Bible is wrong, this creates a strong aversion of keeping people away from the Bible and quells any desire to read the Bible.

So let's look at how science derives to this old earth conclusion and is it accurate and truth:
They use an algorithmic formula of radioactive Isotopes to determine the age of things. For example:
Pb (Lead) X Constant Rate of Decay = Age of the Earth or item being tested
Po (Polonium)

The key is multiplying by a Constant Rate of Decay. If the rate of decay has always been constant then the age is accurate and probably truth, which means the Bible couldn't be true. But if the rate of decay is not constant, then the age is wildly inaccurate and the basis for not reading the Bible is broken.

Are there examples of the rate of decay not be constant? Yes. Whenever there is trauma on the earth, eg earthquakes, meteors, asteroid, floods, tsunami, volcanic eruptions, etc, that accelerates the aging process. Are there examples in nature of the aging process being accelerated? yes. In Nature: Mt. Saint Helen erupted in 1980 and it's violent eruption produced petrified trees in 30 years. A process that we are told takes 500,000 years. Wow that is a massive acceleration of the aging process. Can mankind accelerate the aging process? Yes. Take a piece of wood, sealed in a vacuum, with trace elements of clay, H2O and bake it at 150 degrees Celsius for 8 months (essentially a buried earth scenario). That piece of wood turns into 100% coal. Take that newly formed coal and the top scientist will determine the age to be 20 million years old with the best equipment available. But they would be wildly off, for that coal is not 20 million years old, it's only 8 months old.

The old age of life on earth is the foundation for which all evolution is built upon. Since the constant rate of decay has been proven to not be a constant, then the age of life on earth is inaccurate. Hopefully people won't be so against reading what the Bible teaches, for the source that was saying the Bible to be inaccurate has been broken. The Bible declares God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in 6 days and rested the 7th day (probably around 6,000 to 10,000 years ago.).

[waauw]

Very bad research techniques.
A. You don't know there are contradictions, you only are basing this on what people have told you. Find them and we'll talk.
B. Your evidence is not supportive of your view at all.
C. The "church", did refute a truth. But who were they that was refuting? They were corrupt selling forgiveness, they were irrational. essentially they were people that had drifted far from God and His teachings. Hence this led to the reformation.
D. Just because the Egyptians and other cultures had some astronomy concepts, doesn't refute the inspiration of the Bible being God breathed. For God could of inspired their culture as well.

ok then here is 1 example of evidence:
Exodus 20(the ten commandments) ==> "You shall not murder"
1 Samuel 15: 2-3 ==> "This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

In other words God forbids murder, yet he himself orders the genocide of an entire people and not just the men, but also women and children. How very nice to worship a God who is vengeful, ruthless and can't make up his mind. So please tell me how God did not contradict himself.

sources:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2015:2&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2015:3&version=NIV

D. Ok then where is your evidence that God actually wrote the Bible and please do not tell me the Bible itself. Because that is not decent proof.

2. Again there you got stating that you KNOW that there is intelligence behind it all. Even I am not that arrogant to say that I know that that it is impossible that we've been created by a God entity. You should not be that arrogant either. You don't have conclusive proof, hence you just think or believe it. And I would like to accentuate the difference between to think and to believe. Because there is good argumentation behind evolutionism. It isn't perfect, I agree, but that does not make it a belief system. In the business world people are uncertain of all kinds of things all the time, but does that mean they act on everything purely out of faith? No! They act on a premeditated and precalculated chance. This is also how theories like evolutionism got so popular. It is until now the [url]best fitting[/url] model(I recognize just a theory still).

Why come at me with such venom. For Evolutionist proclaim they are teaching from fact and yet they have only a hypothesis. And you don't respond to any of them with the same language. Please be consistent.

Why? because I'm debating you not them. Also you proclaim you KNOW it. In other words you proclaim you have indisputable evidence that proves the existence of God. Yet you have not given any of such. Also it's funny how you've ignored so many of my arguments already, not trying to refute them anymore.

4. There isn't even complete evidence that your Jesus-figure was how he is described in the Bible. There is quite some evidence that shows Jesus was not a miracle man, nor was he of poor desent. According to recent archeological findings he might have been a rich and educated person who came up for the rights of the common man, a bit like Mahatma Ghandi.Additionally you should realise that because a good man believes in something, does not make it the truth. Even good men can be wrong.

You might as well of said, "not uh"... There is evidence that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave 3 days later. There are secular writings of Josephus, a non-believer that wrote about Jesus.And of course there is the Bible that describes over 500 people saw the resurrected Christ.[/quote]

According to christian belief, Jesus died in the year 0. Josephus wasn't even born then. He was born 37 years later. So he did not witness this first hand. Additionally Josephus was actually a believer. He was a Jew just like your Jesus was.

And you can't use the Bible as evidence to prove that what's written in the Bible is true. That's like saying Harry Potter is real because there is a book called Harry Potter.

[waauw]

I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

One of the reasons people don't believe in the Bible, is because scientist are calculating life on earth to be billions of years old and the Bible describes life began on earth maybe 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. The two are complete opposites, so both can't be correct. Since most of the world is declaring science is correct and the Bible is wrong, this creates a strong aversion of keeping people away from the Bible and quells any desire to read the Bible.

So let's look at how science derives to this old earth conclusion and is it accurate and truth:
They use an algorithmic formula of radioactive Isotopes to determine the age of things. For example:
Pb (Lead) X Constant Rate of Decay = Age of the Earth or item being tested
Po (Polonium)

The key is multiplying by a Constant Rate of Decay. If the rate of decay has always been constant then the age is accurate and probably truth, which means the Bible couldn't be true. But if the rate of decay is not constant, then the age is wildly inaccurate and the basis for not reading the Bible is broken.

Are there examples of the rate of decay not be constant? Yes. Whenever there is trauma on the earth, eg earthquakes, meteors, asteroid, floods, tsunami, volcanic eruptions, etc, that accelerates the aging process. Are there examples in nature of the aging process being accelerated? yes. In Nature: Mt. Saint Helen erupted in 1980 and it's violent eruption produced petrified trees in 30 years. A process that we are told takes 500,000 years. Wow that is a massive acceleration of the aging process. Can mankind accelerate the aging process? Yes. Take a piece of wood, sealed in a vacuum, with trace elements of clay, H2O and bake it at 150 degrees Celsius for 8 months (essentially a buried earth scenario). That piece of wood turns into 100% coal. Take that newly formed coal and the top scientist will determine the age to be 20 million years old with the best equipment available. But they would be wildly off, for that coal is not 20 million years old, it's only 8 months old.

The old age of life on earth is the foundation for which all evolution is built upon. Since the constant rate of decay has been proven to not be a constant, then the age of life on earth is inaccurate. Hopefully people won't be so against reading what the Bible teaches, for the source that was saying the Bible to be inaccurate has been broken. The Bible declares God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in 6 days and rested the 7th day (probably around 6,000 to 10,000 years ago.).

I agree that the common concpetion of the age of the earth according to carbon dating might be wrong because of this new discovery. However that puts human kind in a position of "I don't know". As the earth might still be billions or millions or as you claim thousands of years old. This is however still no proof of the Bible being right.

Additionally this does not debunk evolution. Looking into the physiology and DNA of the many animal species you can still see the many similarities between current animals and extinct animals. The only thing that potentially changes because of this discovery is the conception of the speed of evolution. Evolutionism isn't based on carbon dating alone.

[Phatscotty]

A couple videos I think are pertinent to the issue

show

[waauw]

A couple videos on the issue

show

[Phatscotty]

A couple videos on the issue

show

play them while you fall asleep? Might take a week, but it's much quicker than reading it in a book!

I'm already 1/25th done

[universalchiro]

Very bad research techniques.
A. You don't know there are contradictions, you only are basing this on what people have told you. Find them and we'll talk.
B. Your evidence is not supportive of your view at all.
C. The "church", did refute a truth. But who were they that was refuting? They were corrupt selling forgiveness, they were irrational. essentially they were people that had drifted far from God and His teachings. Hence this led to the reformation.
D. Just because the Egyptians and other cultures had some astronomy concepts, doesn't refute the inspiration of the Bible being God breathed. For God could of inspired their culture as well.

ok then here is 1 example of evidence:
Exodus 20(the ten commandments) ==> "You shall not murder"
1 Samuel 15: 2-3 ==> "This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

In other words God forbids murder, yet he himself orders the genocide of an entire people and not just the men, but also women and children. How very nice to worship a God who is vengeful, ruthless and can't make up his mind. So please tell me how God did not contradict himself.

The Commandment "You shall not murder" was being violated by the Amalekites. They also violated others:

Exodus 20:And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was. 22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

The Amalekites were murdering the weak of Israel. The weak are the young, babies, mothers, elderly, sick, helpless.
Deuteronomy 25:17 "Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and attacked all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God."

The Amalekites were worshiping other false gods and violating The 10 commanments:
Deuteronomy 29:30 "The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods..
The Amalekites were sacrificing their sons and daughters in fire to their gods. Imagine killing your child by fire. This was such a crime in the eyes of God, so you bet He wiped out the entire people. And so would you if you saw that they were worshiping other gods and their evil was so bad that they killed their children in the process.

So this is not an example of a contradiction, this is an example of a consistent God that gave the Amalekites ample time to repent and when they wouldn't, God judged them. The Bible is very clear, there are consequences to sin. The wages/cost of sin is death. Something dies when we sin. The consequences on earth can range from divorce, bankruptcy, illness, death, etc, essentially loss of quality of life and loss of life itself. The consequences of sin beyond life on earth that has not been paid in full by the blood of Jesus Christ, is eternal spiritual death. Which is eternity in Hell, suffering in anguish of hot, darkness with no relief. The flip side of this, is when someone believes that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, paid in full the cost of our sin on the cross, then that person receives two benefits: 1. Blessings from God while on earth. 2. Eternal life in Heaven. Where there is no pain, no tear, no suffering. This is the Gospel message.

D. Ok then where is your evidence that God actually wrote the Bible and please do not tell me the Bible itself. Because that is not decent proof.

There are over 2,000 fulfilled prophesies in the Bible that writers wrote that specific event would occur before it actually occur. This is beyond human ability. Something or someone had to inform them. For example: Daniel wrote a prophecy that Jesus the Messiah would enter Jerusalem 483 Jewish years after the decree to re-build Jerusalem and the Temple walls.
The Prophecy ... Book of Daniel 9:24-25 (written around 600 BC)
"He (Messiah ... the King) will be revealed 7 weeks + 62 weeks ( = 69 weeks of years) AFTER the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls, THEN He (Messiah) will be CUT-OFF (executed!) but NOT for Himself." (He willingly died on the Cross as the sacrificial "Lamb of God".) (Daniel 9:24-25)
This is a mathematical prophecy . . . - A week of years (shabua or shabu’im) = 7 years .. - "Cut-off". . . the actual Hebrew word used was karath, literally means "executed!" - The "70th Week" (the last 7 years) of this prophecy is yet future ... the coming "Apocalypse." written about in the book of Revelation.

This prophecy of the coming Messiah is both remarkable and extremely precise. On March 14th, 445 BC, as confirmed by modern archaeology, King Artexerxes I of Persia issued the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and specifically included its wall (see Nehemiah 2:2-9 ... the book of Nehemiah records this account of rebuilding the city and its wall.)

In addition to this specific prophecy, in another book, by another writer, Zechariah wrote of this event "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion (Israel)! Behold, your King (Messiah) is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, yet He is lowly and riding on a donkey." (Zechariah 9:9 ... was written around 500 B.C., approximately 530 years fulfillment)

Thus, on the 10th day of Nisan ("Palm Sunday") 32 AD ... 483 Solar-Lunar years after the command was given to rebuild the city and its wall ... Jesus (Yeshua) made His famous "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey. It was the only day that He ever allowed Himself to be honored as Messiah or King (Mark 11:1-12) as the people of Israel cried out and sang "Hosanna to the Son of David (this is a Psalm of the Messiah), blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!" from Psalm 118 ... (and all this took place just a few days before He was "executed" exactly as Daniel's prophecy said He would!)
We celebrate this day today as Palm Sunday. Which was only 5 days before His death on the cross (Good Friday) and resurrection Sunday (this is our Holy Passover, more known by the pagan holiday name easter a derivative of Ishtar from Queen of Babyon).
This was only 1 of 2,000+ ...

According to christian belief, Jesus died in the year 0. Josephus wasn't even born then. He was born 37 years later. So he did not witness this first hand. Additionally Josephus was actually a believer. He was a Jew just like your Jesus was.

You are misinformed about what Christians think about when Jesus was died. He did not die year 0. it is more accepted that Jesus, the Son of God, was born 4BC. Which would put His death around 30AD. Josephus was born 37 AD. Why is this a problem for you? The Holocaust of the Jews occurred from 1939 to 1945, There are ample credible material from people born in the 1950's of them interviewing survivors. Is this so hard for you to see and accept? No, you know they wrote credible material. Josephus was in the same situation, he was governor of Galilee where Jesus spent a lot of time. Josephus a Jew, but the Jews rejected Jesus' claim to be the Messiah and Yahweh. So just because Josephus was a Jew, there is no record of him being a believer. But Josephus authenticates that Jesus was a real person and did miracles from writing down what other multiple first hand accounts gave him, but he also is not a believer. This is not hard to see.

And you can't use the Bible as evidence to prove that what's written in the Bible is true. That's like saying Harry Potter is real because there is a book called Harry Potter.

Look, The Bible testifies of it's authenticity on its' own. No collection of 66 books into one book, written by 35 authors over a span of 3,000 years is going to be void of errors, contradictions and instead be filled with truths spanning from civil laws, moral laws, constellations, human hygiene, creation, future cities that haven't been established before they are form, speaks of future people by name 100's of years before they are born, etc and have 2,000+ prophecies comes true to the jot and tittle.

The Bible is a roaring Lion and it can defend itself. The Bible is God's own words breathed (moved) through mankind to write. And The Bible is God's own words describing His glory and what He has and will do, and it list God's requirements for us.

[AndyDufresne]

Look,

I agree this part of your post.


--Andy

[tzor]

One of the reasons people don't believe in the Bible, is because scientist are calculating life on earth to be billions of years old and the Bible describes life began on earth maybe 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. The two are complete opposites, so both can't be correct. Since most of the world is declaring science is correct and the Bible is wrong, this creates a strong aversion of keeping people away from the Bible and quells any desire to read the Bible.

But that's the funny part. It doesn't say "The Lord has told me the earth is this many years old." That number comes from staring at stories of lineages and trying to add up the ages of all the people involved (when who begat who and so forth). It's more of an abuse of the Bible than anything else. The Bible tells us how to get to heaven, not how the heavens go.

[waauw]

Look, The Bible testifies of it's authenticity on its' own. No collection of 66 books into one book, written by 35 authors over a span of 3,000 years is going to be void of errors, contradictions and instead be filled with truths spanning from civil laws, moral laws, constellations, human hygiene, creation, future cities that haven't been established before they are form, speaks of future people by name 100's of years before they are born, etc and have 2,000+ prophecies comes true to the jot and tittle.

The Bible is a roaring Lion and it can defend itself. The Bible is God's own words breathed (moved) through mankind to write. And The Bible is God's own words describing His glory and what He has and will do, and it list God's requirements for us.

I gave you a contradiction and I'm still waiting for your response to it. Just as I am waiting for a response to many other of my arguments that you apparently are ignoring.
Also you still keep ignoring that many of these "universal truths" can be observed by humans. You don't need a God to know about human hygiene.

And here's an example of another contradiction, this time proving that not all prophecies in the Bible are true.
Isaiah 52:1

Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.

==> obviously non-circumsized people did enter jerusalem later on...

sources:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2052&version=NIV

[BigBallinStalin]

The Bible testifies of it's authenticity on its' own.
The Bible is a roaring Lion and it can defend itself. The Bible is God's own words breathed (moved) through mankind to write. And The Bible is God's own words describing His glory and what He has and will do, and it list God's requirements for us.

Oh, I have deciphered the above code. The following is the result:

[BigBallinStalin]

Look, The Bible testifies of it's authenticity on its' own. No collection of 66 books into one book, written by 35 authors over a span of 3,000 years is going to be void of errors, contradictions and instead be filled with truths spanning from civil laws, moral laws, constellations, human hygiene, creation, future cities that haven't been established before they are form, speaks of future people by name 100's of years before they are born, etc and have 2,000+ prophecies comes true to the jot and tittle.

The Bible is a roaring Lion and it can defend itself. The Bible is God's own words breathed (moved) through mankind to write. And The Bible is God's own words describing His glory and what He has and will do, and it list God's requirements for us.

I gave you a contradiction and I'm still waiting for your response to it. Just as I am waiting for a response to many other of my arguments that you apparently are ignoring.

Well, waauw, that's the point. Why answer questions that could reveal a mistake in one's thinking? That doesn't seem smart at all.

[john9blue]

You might as well of said, "not uh"... There is evidence that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave 3 days later. There are secular writings of Josephus, a non-believer that wrote about Jesus.And of course there is the Bible that describes over 500 people saw the resurrected Christ.

The historian E. Mary Smallwood wrote:
"[Josephus] was conceited, not only about his own learning but also about the opinions held of him as commander both by the Galileans and by the Romans; he was guilty of shocking duplicity at Jotapata, saving himself by sacrifice of his companions; he was too naive to see how he stood condemned out of his own mouth for his conduct, and yet no words were too harsh when he was blackening his opponents; and after landing, however involuntarily, in the Roman camp, he turned his captivity to his own advantage, and benefitted for the rest of his days from his change of side".[17]
Author Joseph Raymond calls Josephus "the Jewish Benedict Arnold" for betraying his own troops at Jotapata.[18]

Huh. I guess you consider him trustworthy anyway?

i heard he had sex with his slave, too.

clearly the man's historical writings are not to be trusted!

[Gillipig]

Ahhhh, slaaaves! I want some, I need some, yet I shall never have any! This is the tragedy of life.

[tzor]

And here's an example of another contradiction, this time proving that not all prophecies in the Bible are true.
Isaiah 52:1

You realize that this is the preface to one of the famous Suffering Servant passages. So that passage would not be fulfilled until Christ.

[tzor]

clearly the man's historical writings are not to be trusted!

I would take his writings with a daily allowance of salt.

[waauw]

And here's an example of another contradiction, this time proving that not all prophecies in the Bible are true.
Isaiah 52:1

You realize that this is the preface to one of the famous Suffering Servant passages. So that passage would not be fulfilled until Christ.

Actually I didn't, thx for correcting me
where is that written exactly?

[universalchiro]

Waauw, I see we have been not fully communicating well. I think this is on both of us: I'm writing some responses within the quotes and you're just reading the bottom after all the quotes. Please go back and read through my notes for my responses to your replies. Cheers

Very bad research techniques.
A. You don't know there are contradictions, you only are basing this on what people have told you. Find them and we'll talk.
B. Your evidence is not supportive of your view at all.
C. The "church", did refute a truth. But who were they that was refuting? They were corrupt selling forgiveness, they were irrational. essentially they were people that had drifted far from God and His teachings. Hence this led to the reformation.
D. Just because the Egyptians and other cultures had some astronomy concepts, doesn't refute the inspiration of the Bible being God breathed. For God could of inspired their culture as well.

ok then here is 1 example of evidence:
Exodus 20(the ten commandments) ==> "You shall not murder"
1 Samuel 15: 2-3 ==> "This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

In other words God forbids murder, yet he himself orders the genocide of an entire people and not just the men, but also women and children. How very nice to worship a God who is vengeful, ruthless and can't make up his mind. So please tell me how God did not contradict himself.

The Commandment "You shall not murder" was being violated by the Amalekites. They also violated others:

Exodus 20:And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was. 22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

The Amalekites were murdering the weak of Israel. The weak are the young, babies, mothers, elderly, sick, helpless.
Deuteronomy 25:17 "Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and attacked all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God."

The Amalekites were worshiping other false gods and violating The 10 commanments:
Deuteronomy 29:30 "The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods..
The Amalekites were sacrificing their sons and daughters in fire to their gods. Imagine killing your child by fire. This was such a crime in the eyes of God, so you bet He wiped out the entire people. And so would you if you saw that they were worshiping other gods and their evil was so bad that they killed their children in the process.

So this is not an example of a contradiction, this is an example of a consistent God that gave the Amalekites ample time to repent and when they wouldn't, God judged them. The Bible is very clear, there are consequences to sin. The wages/cost of sin is death. Something dies when we sin. The consequences on earth can range from divorce, bankruptcy, illness, death, etc, essentially loss of quality of life and loss of life itself. The consequences of sin beyond life on earth that has not been paid in full by the blood of Jesus Christ, is eternal spiritual death. Which is eternity in Hell, suffering in anguish of hot, darkness with no relief. The flip side of this, is when someone believes that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, paid in full the cost of our sin on the cross, then that person receives two benefits: 1. Blessings from God while on earth. 2. Eternal life in Heaven. Where there is no pain, no tear, no suffering. This is the Gospel message.

D. Ok then where is your evidence that God actually wrote the Bible and please do not tell me the Bible itself. Because that is not decent proof.

There are over 2,000 fulfilled prophesies in the Bible that writers wrote that specific event would occur before it actually occur. This is beyond human ability. Something or someone had to inform them. For example: Daniel wrote a prophecy that Jesus the Messiah would enter Jerusalem 483 Jewish years after the decree to re-build Jerusalem and the Temple walls.
The Prophecy ... Book of Daniel 9:24-25 (written around 600 BC)
"He (Messiah ... the King) will be revealed 7 weeks + 62 weeks ( = 69 weeks of years) AFTER the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls, THEN He (Messiah) will be CUT-OFF (executed!) but NOT for Himself." (He willingly died on the Cross as the sacrificial "Lamb of God".) (Daniel 9:24-25)
This is a mathematical prophecy . . . - A week of years (shabua or shabu’im) = 7 years .. - "Cut-off". . . the actual Hebrew word used was karath, literally means "executed!" - The "70th Week" (the last 7 years) of this prophecy is yet future ... the coming "Apocalypse." written about in the book of Revelation.

This prophecy of the coming Messiah is both remarkable and extremely precise. On March 14th, 445 BC, as confirmed by modern archaeology, King Artexerxes I of Persia issued the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and specifically included its wall (see Nehemiah 2:2-9 ... the book of Nehemiah records this account of rebuilding the city and its wall.)

In addition to this specific prophecy, in another book, by another writer, Zechariah wrote of this event "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion (Israel)! Behold, your King (Messiah) is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, yet He is lowly and riding on a donkey." (Zechariah 9:9 ... was written around 500 B.C., approximately 530 years fulfillment)

Thus, on the 10th day of Nisan ("Palm Sunday") 32 AD ... 483 Solar-Lunar years after the command was given to rebuild the city and its wall ... Jesus (Yeshua) made His famous "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey. It was the only day that He ever allowed Himself to be honored as Messiah or King (Mark 11:1-12) as the people of Israel cried out and sang "Hosanna to the Son of David (this is a Psalm of the Messiah), blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!" from Psalm 118 ... (and all this took place just a few days before He was "executed" exactly as Daniel's prophecy said He would!)
We celebrate this day today as Palm Sunday. Which was only 5 days before His death on the cross (Good Friday) and resurrection Sunday (this is our Holy Passover, more known by the pagan holiday name easter a derivative of Ishtar from Queen of Babyon).
This was only 1 of 2,000+ ...

According to christian belief, Jesus died in the year 0. Josephus wasn't even born then. He was born 37 years later. So he did not witness this first hand. Additionally Josephus was actually a believer. He was a Jew just like your Jesus was.

*You are misinformed about what Christians think about when Jesus was died. He did not die year 0. it is more accepted that Jesus, the Son of God, was born 4BC. Which would put His death around 30AD. Josephus was born 37 AD. Why is this a problem for you? The Holocaust of the Jews occurred from 1939 to 1945, There are ample credible material from people born in the 1950's of them interviewing survivors. Is this so hard for you to see and accept? No, you know they wrote credible material. Josephus was in the same situation, he was governor of Galilee where Jesus spent a lot of time. Josephus a Jew, but the Jews rejected Jesus' claim to be the Messiah and Yahweh. So just because Josephus was a Jew, there is no record of him being a believer. But Josephus authenticates that Jesus was a real person and did miracles from writing down what other multiple first hand accounts gave him, but he also is not a believer. This is not hard to see.

And you can't use the Bible as evidence to prove that what's written in the Bible is true. That's like saying Harry Potter is real because there is a book called Harry Potter.

Look, The Bible testifies of it's authenticity on its' own. No collection of 66 books into one book, written by 35 authors over a span of 3,000 years is going to be void of errors, contradictions and instead be filled with truths spanning from civil laws, moral laws, constellations, human hygiene, creation, future cities that haven't been established before they are form, speaks of future people by name 100's of years before they are born, etc and have 2,000+ prophecies comes true to the jot and tittle.

The Bible is a roaring Lion and it can defend itself. The Bible is God's own words breathed (moved) through mankind to write. And The Bible is God's own words describing His glory and what He has and will do, and it list God's requirements for us.