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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby Fulch on Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:35 pm

Function of Sirens?

Has this been brought up yet?

I have a game where I took a Siren but was not able to fort out of it. I realize they cannot attack, but forting is different. The result was leaving troops stuck there. Like Alcatraz in SF.

Is this a bug?

If they are not allowed to fort out, the ledger should be better worded as it currently states--Sirens cannot attack.

Map has a nice concept. Cheers.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby Aleena on Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:39 pm

Suggestion to Fulch's issue maybe add a one way move ability from each Siren to the peguses next to it.

So if you reach the Siren - you can only leave here rock through the passing of a Peguses... Just an idea.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby Gilligan on Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:52 pm

Fulch wrote:Function of Sirens?

Has this been brought up yet?

I have a game where I took a Siren but was not able to fort out of it. I realize they cannot attack, but forting is different. The result was leaving troops stuck there. Like Alcatraz in SF.

Is this a bug?

If they are not allowed to fort out, the ledger should be better worded as it currently states--Sirens cannot attack.

Map has a nice concept. Cheers.


But it's also a +2.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby betiko on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:20 pm

Ok, i m on a dubs no spoils.. And i don t know there is something wrong about it. In spite of having a clear troop advantage, the bonuses are to small to take. Opponents keep on stacking their slave entrance waiting for us to take too much confidence and attack too many neutrals...
I don t know i really liked better the 2 cups for food bonus as before personally..

Also.. This is not a map for no spoils!! Impossible to have a significant advatage to go for prometheus before at least 30 rounds..
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:41 am

Fulch wrote:Function of Sirens?

Has this been brought up yet?

I have a game where I took a Siren but was not able to fort out of it. I realize they cannot attack, but forting is different. The result was leaving troops stuck there. Like Alcatraz in SF.

Is this a bug?

If they are not allowed to fort out, the ledger should be better worded as it currently states--Sirens cannot attack.

Map has a nice concept. Cheers.

The sirens cannot reinforce or attack out of, you cannot have one without the other. Any troops you place on them are stuck. But you need to place troops on them to protect your bonus. Remember, it is a pretty good bonus for one region so they are nice to have. I see no reason to change the wording but if you can suggest something that fits the space I have, I can change it.
Aleena wrote:Suggestion to Fulch's issue maybe add a one way move ability from each Siren to the peguses next to it.

So if you reach the Siren - you can only leave here rock through the passing of a Peguses... Just an idea.

This suggestion completely changes the sirens idea. Sirens draw you in and never let you go.
betiko wrote:Ok, i m on a dubs no spoils.. And i don t know there is something wrong about it. In spite of having a clear troop advantage, the bonuses are to small to take. Opponents keep on stacking their slave entrance waiting for us to take too much confidence and attack too many neutrals...
I don t know i really liked better the 2 cups for food bonus as before personally..

Also.. This is not a map for no spoils!! Impossible to have a significant advatage to go for prometheus before at least 30 rounds..

This is a legit strategy. Seen it done countless times on the feudal maps. But if someone is getting the 3+2auto, that is only 5 troops. Surely, you can see an advantage to going out to get bonuses. Dead warriors are 3 alone.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:10 am

I agree with betiko, koontz. There is no incentive whatsoever to leave your slave entrance prior to like at least your 5th turn, on any games type, not just no spoils. Dead Warriors are a +3 to take 8 neutrals (not including the paths to get there), and is near impossible to take early in the game.

Additionally, games are over long before they are actually over...it takes at least 7-10 rounds of no attacks by the losing team before the winning team is comfortable taking a neutral 20 in Prometheus, AND can build up enough troops to take out the slave entrances located around the map. I would probably suggest either awarding a large bonus for holding Prometheus (at least +15 or something), decreasing the amount of neutrals on Prometheus to something like n5, or completely reworking the conditional borders, so that Prometheus can attack the slave entrances, and require holding another territory on the map as the condition to attack a slave entrance.

I would probably also suggest getting rid of the killer neutrals on the ring of fire...pretty frustrating having to continually roll against a n1 just to reinforce from the autodeploy, which can easily take 3-4 troops from your stack.

These are just my initial thoughts, but I have not enjoyed the gameplay of this map so far.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby Aleena on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:51 am

Sirens make since now that you explained that - maybe the rules need to be more clear - instead of saying "Can't Attack +2" which I initially thought that means that it neutralizes the areas leading up to her once you capture her (for she can not attack/sing) maybe write is as "Can't Move +2" for you can not move off location not even when using reinforcements movements - or write " Trapped There +2" which would be more clear to new players.

Ring of Fire, I love that ring of fire and concept. No incentive to move out from the slave entrance for the first 5 turns... ?? Not sure of the limitations of the game engine - but maybe you can place a max limit to troops in the slave entrance - if slave entrance qty=>10 then it equals 10. If a simple if statement is not allowed to be added based on the way the game engine is designed - then I agree add the food I guess.

As for the game being over why before it ends - for the player that is dominating the field - once to build up a little more before making the final move - I have a suggestion that will encourage initial moving out of slave entrances and force a player to make the move if they can else they get punished by the gods...

If a player controls 1 to 5 locations they gain +0 deploy each turn
if a player controls 6 to 26 locations then gain +1 only deploy "Gift from the gods"
(gives a little incentive to grab at least 6 areas)
if player controls 27 to 49 locations then gain +2 only deploy as "Divine Blessings"
If player controls 50 to 75 locations then lose - 5 deploy
(player's greed has angered the gods)
if player controls 76 to 150 locations then -1 deploy for every 5 areas controlled
(god's do not like to be defied)
This will hopefully encourage players to grab at least 6 areas and it will encourage players that are dominating the board to finish the game - else the smaller players may be able to build up faster since they gain small bonuses for god blessings/ while a lot the good bonuses captured by the dominating player is stripped from them by the god's because of their greed.

just suggestions
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby Vid_FISO on Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:22 am

Not read any of the 38 preceding pages, so apologies if this is covered.

Regarding team play on this map, you can have control of much of the board but only the player that has Prometheus can attack the slave entrances, this is going to be incredibly time consuming, especially in quads, team mates will either have to get out of the way (and have bonuses destroyed by their own team mate(s)) or more than one will have to make for Prometheus to switch control and to speed things up needs the "losing" team to not take advantage of deliberate weakening to prolong the game for however many more moves. Is this likely to encourage some teams to have players deadbeat to give terits/ bonuses and map position to the lead player?

I quite like the map for 1v1 but for team play it's going to be a pain and for 3&4 player dubs a lengthy nightmare for some.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby Donelladan on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:12 am

I dont think it is a good idea to allow prometheus to attack slave entrance. It would make the map too similar to other map like antartica.
Like it is now, this map is quite unique, since you need "2stacks" to eliminate a player, one to take prometheus, one to take his slave entrance.

For team games, I played a 3vs3, it was escalating so it helps for sure, but we had no pb at all.
We have one player that receive the stack, once he controls the map he take prometheus and kill everyone else. I dont think it is a major issue.


@Aleena and Fulchs, you can fort only the way you can attack, you will have same pb on a lot of other map, with one way attack you have one way fort also. Just learn it, if you cant attack that way, you cant fort that way. No need to change the wording here.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby EricPhail on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:52 pm

A quick question (here seemed an acceptable place to ask): Why does BOB (5.2.4) not recognise multiple food or minotaur bonuses when calculating troops due?
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby Gilligan on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:46 pm

EricPhail wrote:A quick question (here seemed an acceptable place to ask): Why does BOB (5.2.4) not recognise multiple food or minotaur bonuses when calculating troops due?


BOB doesn't recognize the new type of bonus in XML (collection bonus). It's not a map issue it's a BOB issue.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby puppydog85 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:15 pm

Ok, first time back to comment since the reboot.

I disagree about the time concerns- it might take a bit longer to win but it still gets done in a fair amount of time. Nothing close to say... Hive or Conquer Man.

I also disagree about changing the neutrals or messing with the bonuses. I think they are fine the way they are.

The only problem I have so far is that is it seems in 1v1's (with two people who know the map) that whoever gets a dead warrior first wins. But honestly I am working on another strategy that might counter that, So it's not a problem. The only thing I might like to see would be 2 initial starts in 1v1. But overall, I repeat my earlier praise Koontz: Great map!
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:12 pm

Having read the posts so far.

@ nole - I agree with reducing the Prom neutral to a 15 only for now. Any lower than that and you make him too easy to get. With the bonuses you pick up on the way to him, 20 is not high but I will allow a reduction to 15 for now. Changing it any other way destroys the whole idea behind it. As for leaving the slave entrance late, in the games I played, sirens where captured by round 2 for a bonus of 3. That is a good reason to leave early. Each entrance has a start of a bonus (food,swords) as well as the dead warriors. It may be that some players will want to not leave till a sizeable force can be gathered, but as I said earlier, this is a legit strategy. I have seen this done many times for the feudal maps. The feudal maps give a +5 auto onto the castles with a +1 for every 2 held in a kingdom. For the size of maps, this is pretty good. But if I give a +5 here, you get 11 first go (3 already on, +5 auto, 3 to deploy). That is way to many. Even with my two half games, I am not convinced that this is something that needs to change.

@ Vid_FISO - As for quads/trips/doubles games, I see no problem with team members having to attack each other to win. Team games, you will be tripping over each to get to where you want and how you do that is up to you. communicating will be key here. Playing team games with silent players will be a drag.

@ puppydog85 - thanks.

@ donelladan - I completely agree over Prom attack entrances. It makes it all a dash to the centre. As it is not, you have the dash, but you really do have the suspense of where is the enemy in fog games. If he hiding around the next corner or dashing all over the place.
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Re: Labyrinth [21/2] Pg 1/24 BETA

Postby tez hodos on Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:29 am

Koontz,
so far, nice work on the map. I'm in a four player, singles, sequential game. I may have found a bug. Sorry, I didn't read all 38 pages in case this was already addressed. The legend says you must hold a slave entrance to stay in the game. That makes me think you can directly attack someone's slave entrance. BoB indicates so. I positioned to attack someone's slave entrance from its adjacent ring of fire, but I could not choose the slave entrance as an option to attack.
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