Moderator: Community Team
Metsfanmax wrote:
I doubt that we would ever have the computing power necessary to actually carry out the calculation. That is not the point. The point is that it is meaningful to state what the calculation is. Even if we could never actually calculate the state of the universe at t+1 based on complete information at t, it is nevertheless true (as far as we have yet determined) that the state of the universe at t+1 is completely determined by the state of the universe at t. The idea of free will requires this not to be the case. If you are meaningfully going to make a choice, then I contend it should not be possible for an external observer to know in advance what the choice will be. If that choice is completely determined by natural laws, then your mind has not done anything except play out the cosmic drama that unfolds every second in the universe.
Metsfanmax wrote:What do you mean by "the form is completely deterministic"? Could you give an example?
Yes. According to Newton's second law, if I place a one kilogram particle on a frictionless surface and exert a force of 1 Newton on it, it will always accelerate by precisely 1 m/s^2(*). There is no element of unpredictability in what the state of the universe will be as a result of the action.
*Ignoring the effects of special relativity, which are not important for the answer.
Metsfanmax wrote:BBS wrote:I am presented with two options on a broad level at this time: (1) continue reading, or (2) ignore your post. Apparently, I have more than one option. After some time of deliberating between the two choices, I chose (1).
[1]Do you really believe this? In what alternative scenario would you have made a different "choice?" [2]If the thought process that led you to the conclusion was based on some series of weighed pros and cons, those pros and cons were determined completely by your past experiences, and if we re-ran the universe again up to this point, is there any chance you could have made a different decision? If not, in what meaningful way have you actually made a choice?
BigBallinStalin wrote:Metsfanmax wrote:
I doubt that we would ever have the computing power necessary to actually carry out the calculation. That is not the point. The point is that it is meaningful to state what the calculation is. Even if we could never actually calculate the state of the universe at t+1 based on complete information at t, it is nevertheless true (as far as we have yet determined) that the state of the universe at t+1 is completely determined by the state of the universe at t. The idea of free will requires this not to be the case. If you are meaningfully going to make a choice, then I contend it should not be possible for an external observer to know in advance what the choice will be. If that choice is completely determined by natural laws, then your mind has not done anything except play out the cosmic drama that unfolds every second in the universe.
RE: underlined,
What do you mean? Because if I knew someone really well and successfully predicted his decision (e.g. I placed a bet and won), it doesn't follow that that someone "didn't meaningfully make a choice." (Stocks and bonds traders are great at doing this for large scales of individuals and organizations). What's the difference between "knowing in advance" and "predicting"? Do you mean: "to know in advance with absolute certainty"?*
*If absolute certainty is required, then what of the uncertainty principle? ---namely, this part: "For instance, the more precisely the position of some particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa." (wiki)
________________
To clarify: an atom is incapable of having free will since its "decisions" are entirely governed by natural laws. You'd agree?
RE: bold,
Suppose someone discovered that when x-amount of neutrinos pass through the Earth, then people are 50% more likely to desire sex. If this proven to be a fact, then would this fit your criteria of natural laws determining one's choices?
Suppose someone discovered that when x-amount of neutrinos pass through the Earth, then people are 100% more likely to desire sex. If this proven to be a fact, then would this fit your criteria of natural laws determining one's choices?
Metsfanmax wrote:What do you mean by "the form is completely deterministic"? Could you give an example?
Yes. According to Newton's second law, if I place a one kilogram particle on a frictionless surface and exert a force of 1 Newton on it, it will always accelerate by precisely 1 m/s^2(*). There is no element of unpredictability in what the state of the universe will be as a result of the action.
*Ignoring the effects of special relativity, which are not important for the answer.
"No element of unpredictability"....
So, you're looking for some law which completely eliminates any uncertainty* of an outcome?*uncertainty: "uncertainty is present when the likelihood of future events is indefinite or incalculable."
Or/and are you looking for some law which perfectly defines the risk* of any means to any end?*risk: "risk is present when future events occur with measurable probability"
Metsfanmax wrote:BBS wrote:I am presented with two options on a broad level at this time: (1) continue reading, or (2) ignore your post. Apparently, I have more than one option. After some time of deliberating between the two choices, I chose (1).
[1]Do you really believe this? In what alternative scenario would you have made a different "choice?" [2]If the thought process that led you to the conclusion was based on some series of weighed pros and cons, those pros and cons were determined completely by your past experiences, and if we re-ran the universe again up to this point, is there any chance you could have made a different decision? If not, in what meaningful way have you actually made a choice?
[1]Given the apparent absence of a framework/model which demonstrates the validity of determinism, substitutes must be found; therefore, yes, I believe that.
[2] Sure. I could've thought of something more interesting to do, which I didn't conceive in the original, universal trial. The opportunity cost would've varied, so based upon its value compared to the perceived profit of reading his post, I may have decided either way. Who knows. Also, I don't constantly weigh pros and cons at every time for every decision, so during the second trial, I could've been entirely capricious.
I like the idea of imagining an ability to re-run the universe to test for this, but how is that practical?
If the determinist position relies on imaginary, universal reruns in order to make its case, then shouldn't it be closeted in the Unfalsifiable section--next to God, Thor, FSM, and Paramatma?
jonesthecurl wrote:Let's go back to basics: what is the point of asking if we have "free will"?
If it is to get the answer to the question, then I would suggest that the persona asking wants to know the answer.
If you are asking the question, but believe you had no choice but to ask it, it's a bit of a shit question.
I would further suggest that if one has no free will, there is no "one" to ask the question.
Nobody can believe that they have no free will, because by holding that belief they are effectively denying their own existence.
No?
jonesthecurl wrote:Well, at a profoundly fundamental level, if I have no free will, I don't exist.
I rather think that I do exist.
I'm not that sure about the rest of you.
incidentally, I went back before I posted and corrected some spelling errors. I do believe that I could have decided not ot.
jonesthecurl wrote:What I mean, is "I" do not exist without free will. There is a lump of meat and brain that fills the physical position that jonesthecurl happens to occupy, but without volition, it is not the person that "I" perhaps foolishly believe to exist. Incidentally, the meat and brain that is typing this believes that it deliberately typed "ot" rather than "to" at the end of its last post. Perhaps it's wrong, just as it's wrong that it knows the difference between "its" and "it's", and uses them in a grammatically correct manner.
jonesthecurl wrote:What I mean, is "I" do not exist without free will. There is a lump of meat and brain that fills the physical position that jonesthecurl happens to occupy, but without volition, it is not the person that "I" perhaps foolishly believe to exist. Incidentally, the meat and brain that is typing this believes that it deliberately typed "ot" rather than "to" at the end of its last post. Perhaps it's wrong, just as it's wrong that it knows the difference between "its" and "it's", and uses them in a grammatically correct manner.
crispybits wrote:It normally lies with those who make the positive claim - as in X exists.
In this case I think there is some on each side, but far more on the non-determinists side. The determinists claim that everything follows the laws of nature, which are determnistic and causal. Their burden of proof is already met to a large extent for them by the history and discovery of science, which has (as far as I'm aware) not found anything in this universe that exists outside of this causal structure. The last little leap of inductive reasoning is that we won't find anything in the future that does not follow these laws, so there is room for them to be wrong but not a great deal. The non-determinists on the other hand have to show the opposite, with the weight of the history and discovery of science pushing back against them. Theirs is the extraordinary claim, and so they have a much larger burden of proof.
chang50 wrote:The paralell that immediately springs to mind when talking about burdens of proof is with the theism/atheism debate,where IMHO theists are making an extraordinary claim that was historically overwhelmingly accepted.Perhaps in time if determinism becomes more widely accepted non-determinism will be viewed as being as extraordinary a claim as theism.
chang50 wrote:crispybits wrote:It normally lies with those who make the positive claim - as in X exists.
In this case I think there is some on each side, but far more on the non-determinists side. The determinists claim that everything follows the laws of nature, which are determnistic and causal. Their burden of proof is already met to a large extent for them by the history and discovery of science, which has (as far as I'm aware) not found anything in this universe that exists outside of this causal structure. The last little leap of inductive reasoning is that we won't find anything in the future that does not follow these laws, so there is room for them to be wrong but not a great deal. The non-determinists on the other hand have to show the opposite, with the weight of the history and discovery of science pushing back against them. Theirs is the extraordinary claim, and so they have a much larger burden of proof.
The paralell that immediately springs to mind when talking about burdens of proof is with the theism/atheism debate,where IMHO theists are making an extraordinary claim that was historically overwhelmingly accepted.Perhaps in time if determinism becomes more widely accepted non-determinism will be viewed as being as extraordinary a claim as theism.
Woodruff wrote:chang50 wrote:The paralell that immediately springs to mind when talking about burdens of proof is with the theism/atheism debate,where IMHO theists are making an extraordinary claim that was historically overwhelmingly accepted.Perhaps in time if determinism becomes more widely accepted non-determinism will be viewed as being as extraordinary a claim as theism.
Doesn't this eliminate the concept of things such as crime? How do we punish someone for something they have no control over?
Woodruff wrote:chang50 wrote:The paralell that immediately springs to mind when talking about burdens of proof is with the theism/atheism debate,where IMHO theists are making an extraordinary claim that was historically overwhelmingly accepted.Perhaps in time if determinism becomes more widely accepted non-determinism will be viewed as being as extraordinary a claim as theism.
Doesn't this eliminate the concept of things such as crime? How do we punish someone for something they have no control over?
Gillipig wrote:Woodruff wrote:chang50 wrote:The paralell that immediately springs to mind when talking about burdens of proof is with the theism/atheism debate,where IMHO theists are making an extraordinary claim that was historically overwhelmingly accepted.Perhaps in time if determinism becomes more widely accepted non-determinism will be viewed as being as extraordinary a claim as theism.
Doesn't this eliminate the concept of things such as crime? How do we punish someone for something they have no control over?
You should only feel the need to prevent people from harming others, not extract "revenge", as revenge makes no sense when there is no free will. So punishment makes sense if it is to deter others from commiting crimes or sealing away people who are deemed dangerous to society.
crispybits wrote:It certainly requires a rethink of the principles we base a criminal system on - instead of anything being about retribution the focus would have to move solely to protecting the population from a "malfunctioning unit" and trying to rehabilitate to make them a constructive part of society again where possible.
Woodruff wrote:Gillipig wrote:Woodruff wrote:chang50 wrote:The paralell that immediately springs to mind when talking about burdens of proof is with the theism/atheism debate,where IMHO theists are making an extraordinary claim that was historically overwhelmingly accepted.Perhaps in time if determinism becomes more widely accepted non-determinism will be viewed as being as extraordinary a claim as theism.
Doesn't this eliminate the concept of things such as crime? How do we punish someone for something they have no control over?
You should only feel the need to prevent people from harming others, not extract "revenge", as revenge makes no sense when there is no free will. So punishment makes sense if it is to deter others from commiting crimes or sealing away people who are deemed dangerous to society.
Woodruff wrote:crispybits wrote:It certainly requires a rethink of the principles we base a criminal system on - instead of anything being about retribution the focus would have to move solely to protecting the population from a "malfunctioning unit" and trying to rehabilitate to make them a constructive part of society again where possible.
Is rehabilitation possible if choice is not involved?
I suppose perhaps chemical rehabilitation.
Woodruff wrote:Gillipig wrote:Woodruff wrote:chang50 wrote:The paralell that immediately springs to mind when talking about burdens of proof is with the theism/atheism debate,where IMHO theists are making an extraordinary claim that was historically overwhelmingly accepted.Perhaps in time if determinism becomes more widely accepted non-determinism will be viewed as being as extraordinary a claim as theism.
Doesn't this eliminate the concept of things such as crime? How do we punish someone for something they have no control over?
You should only feel the need to prevent people from harming others, not extract "revenge", as revenge makes no sense when there is no free will. So punishment makes sense if it is to deter others from commiting crimes or sealing away people who are deemed dangerous to society.
But punishment can't deter others from committing crimes if they don't choose to commit those crimes.
crispybits wrote:It normally lies with those who make the positive claim - as in X exists.
In this case I think there is some on each side, but far more on the non-determinists side. The determinists claim that everything follows the laws of nature, which are determnistic and causal. Their burden of proof is already met to a large extent for them by the history and discovery of science, which has (as far as I'm aware) not found anything in this universe that exists outside of this causal structure. The last little leap of inductive reasoning is that we won't find anything in the future that does not follow these laws, so there is room for them to be wrong but not a great deal. The non-determinists on the other hand have to show the opposite, with the weight of the history and discovery of science pushing back against them. Theirs is the extraordinary claim, and so they have a much larger burden of proof.
Return to Practical Explanation about Next Life,
Users browsing this forum: No registered users