TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby chapcrap on Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:30 am

Where do I vote at? I may have to leave work early to get the polls on time.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Lindax on Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:23 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
Lindax wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Allowing ordinary members to vote CDs just leaves room for clan bias.


There's 'bias' in any option. And I'd have clan leaders vote in the CDF. A voting system creates an accountability that is not existent now.


Ok Viper. Not trying to be an ass. Please explain how that creates accountability (and to whom) and why that is important (and to whom).

Lx


Are you unfamiliar with the concept that elections create an inherent accountability? And accountability is hugely important for many reasons. A process that fully respects and embraces all clans equally will help to save hours of conflicts in the future. Perhaps, you are unfamiliar with some of the more recent issues; but many people were left with a sense that there is an us and them reality in the clan world.

If you mean with accountability that somebody runs the risk of not being elected, yeah. I don't call that accountability though. An elected CD would still be accountable to the team leader and admin.

As for the rest: You're talking perfect world. In the real world (or clan world) I don't see electing CDs will help save hours of conflict, nor change the "us and them reality".

ViperOverLord wrote:Maybe, many of us are hesitant to discuss it, but a rogue CD(s) can do a lot of damage. And we need a process in which we as clans can collectively choose the most desirable CDs. And I say that with all due respect to those who are serving as CDs now.


An elected CD can still do a lot of damage. And whomever gets elected will only be the choice of a majority, which means there will still be plenty of clan members and leaders who don't agree with the choice.

Besides, why would you want the most desirable person? Shouldn't it be the most capable person? Elections will likely result in the most likable person being chosen, not the most capable.

People don't volunteer for a CD position because they like to see their name in blue (or whatever that horrible color is). They do it because they think they can make the clan world a better place. And even the best CD will never make everybody happy, unless we go back to your perfect world.

Take us, for example. You may be a perfect clan leader (who knows), nevertheless I disagree with practically everything you post. Luckily we both have the option of expressing our opinions.

Lx
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:17 pm

greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
greenoaks wrote:what if they are not suitable?
if they need to agree to the nomination what is stopping them from applying with the current method?

What if a CD is not suitable under the current method of selection? The selection process will never stamp out that concern. However, if you have regular elections, clans will tend to find optimal CD's imo.

i only asked because the proposal was 1 IS selected of the 3 highest voted, whereas none of them might suitable due to many reasons such as existing conflicts with other CDs or management.


Ah. Well if management is admin, then I think they shall have the final say on CDs no matter what the process.

As for current CDs not thinking he/she can work with an elected CD__ Well let me first say that that would hopefully not be a common issue. Regardless, if a CD does not feel like he can work with a certain elected person than he/she should resign. I think it's as simple as that.

so voting for someone who has a problem with the current CD's would allow you to overthrow the regime. i really can't see admin putting in place a system that would allow that.


Overthrow the regime? LOL. The clan world picks their leaders. If they want the same leaders then fine. If they want new leaders then great. The point is that the clan system is intricate and CDs have a lot of power and the clans need to have more control regarding the direction of it, instead of an elite group of people with indefinite stays of power.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby Leehar on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:27 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:instead of an elite group of people


I think it was asked earlier, but what exactly defines us as elite Viper?
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:34 pm

Lindax wrote:An elected CD can still do a lot of damage. And whomever gets elected will only be the choice of a majority, which means there will still be plenty of clan members and leaders who don't agree with the choice.


Yes. An elected CD can do a lot of damage. And if the clan world sees it that way; then they'll vote someone new to reverse the damage. What happens when a current CD does a lot of damage? Nothing. THAT'S ACCOUNTABILITY VS. NOT ACCOUNTABILITY.

Lindax wrote:Besides, why would you want the most desirable person? Shouldn't it be the most capable person? Elections will likely result in the most likable person being chosen, not the most capable.


The most desireable person is the most capable person (or at least capable) in the eyes of the clan world. We have a very astute community. But again, if a CD goes off the rails, then there will be a system in place to get a new CD, rather than endlessly be stuck with a person who is doing damage.

Lindax wrote:People don't volunteer for a CD position because they like to see their name in blue (or whatever that horrible color is). They do it because they think they can make the clan world a better place.


Candidates' desires do not change because you have elections. Although, if they did; it would be for the best imo. Because it would not be about who is in with who. It would be about who gets along with everybody and is seen as a very innovative person by the whole community.

Lindax wrote:And even the best CD will never make everybody happy, unless we go back to your perfect world.


You're logic is fallacious and condescending. I've never said that an election makes everything perfect or that everyone will be happy. People may be disenchanted at times. But, at least they're going to have say in who is representing them. Right now, clans have no say in who is representing them. Some clan leaders may have great visions for the clan world. But, if they're not in the loop, then tough beans.

Lindax wrote:Take us, for example. You may be a perfect clan leader (who knows), nevertheless I disagree with practically everything you post. Luckily we both have the option of expressing our opinions.


The concept of being able to express opinions is an argument for not having elections? Actually, I can tell you that there are some clan leaders who have stopped or tempered their opinions because they are tired of howling at the wind. A vote at least gives them some direct real say.
Last edited by ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Leehar wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:instead of an elite group of people


I think it was asked earlier, but what exactly defines us as elite Viper?


Instead of digging in the dirt, which is what you presumably want to do with this question; how about you actually give your position on elections?
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby VioIet on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:55 pm

Lindax wrote:
Take us, for example. You may be a perfect clan leader (who knows), nevertheless I disagree with practically everything you post. Luckily we both have the option of expressing our opinions.

Lx


I agree with this. I'll use eddie as an example, who we know can be quite a controversial figure at times. Yet, I've heard from more than one person that he is a darn good clan leader. It's also true that you can be unpopular socially, yet be a very good clan mod and vice versa.

And very true that you can never please everybody at the same time. There were some in the past that I felt were great mods, but others didn't think so, and in reverse- some I didn't like that others liked.

My half/half proposal can also work the opposite way.

Members apply for the position and the current CD teams picks three candidates that they think are most worthy. And then of the three, the clan members vote and elect someone.
Bruceswar: I have big news coming out soonish
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:06 pm

VioIet wrote:My half/half proposal can also work the opposite way.

Members apply for the position and the current CD teams picks three candidates that they think are most worthy. And then of the three, the clan members vote and elect someone.


I think a half/half proposal is better than what we have now. But, I think the clan world is more than capable of fully picking who they want as their CDs throughout the entire process. I see no need to take any of that power out of the community, who are the ones being affected. If there's an abundance of candidates, then you can have a preliminary election to narrow the field and then have a final election.

Also, besides the fact that having the CDs narrow the field (erroneously) presupposes that they can pick the final candidates better; it allows them to power broker and leaves the door open for some of the same ole insider politics. The clan community needs to fully own the CD selection process.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby mcshanester29 on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:19 pm

I personally am against voting for clan mods....why are we trying to fix something that isn't broke?

I might not always agree with the clan mods, just like they might not always agree with me, but I believe that there goal is to make the clan world a better place. They have to find the people that they believe they can work with the best, and who can also put up with us clan leaders and members in the clan world, and not by popularity contest.

If someone is interested they will apply to be a clan director and it sounds like they have a big pool of applicants to pick from.

Frankly the clan world can be very brutal at times, especially with so many clans and personalities. How about if we just let the CD's do their job!! The community doesn't need to do squat with the selection process of CD's. They aren't power hungry like you think....otherwise there wouldn't be a CDF. My 2 cents
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby iAmCaffeine on Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:18 pm

Couldn't be bothered to read the last two pages.

The process has already started so changing things now would be foolish. Wait until next time to have a rant.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:50 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:Couldn't be bothered to read the last two pages.

The process has already started so changing things now would be foolish. Wait until next time to have a rant.


That's just pure apathy and you're not being at all helpful.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby chapcrap on Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:59 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
Leehar wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:instead of an elite group of people


I think it was asked earlier, but what exactly defines us as elite Viper?


Instead of digging in the dirt, which is what you presumably want to do with this question; how about you actually give your position on elections?

I think that what Viper may have been referencing was the presumed fact that a lot of CD's have come from higher ranked clans.


Masli - top 5 clan (KORT)
Leehar - top 5 clan (Empire)
Bruceswar - top 5 clan (KORT)
Arya - top 30 clan (1RFG)
Nicky15 - top 5 clan (AOC)
jetsetwilly - top 5 clan (AOC)
chemefreak - top 25 clan (Legion)

I remember this being discussed in some other thread previously. Some people might want a little CD love from the lower ranked clans.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby angola on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:43 am

Are people from the lower ranked clans applying? If not, then the complaint doesn't have merit.

Has Viper applied? It's easy to sit back and take pot shots, but actually volunteering to help out is much harder and more time consuming.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby BoganGod on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:23 pm

This site runs on the work of volunteers for the most part. I think their time could be best spent helping the CC(which is what they are volunteering to do) community, rather than electioneering, and trying to drum up votes. Unless you had compulsory voting you would only get people motivated by "special interests" voting.
I note that some of those most critical of CD's and most rabidly in favour of voting for CD appointments have, or have had a wish to be treated differently than everyone else. There are a lot of strong personalities and conflicting view points in the clan world. Being a lawyer or an accountant(a lot of number crunching if your going to do things right) is almost a prerequisite to manage a CD position with some level of competence.
I think the current method of appointing CDs works, so why waste a lot more time and effort that could be better used elsewhere. Our membership dollars are to play the game, not to be a member of a clan, play in tournaments etc. All these are additional value added add ons provided by volunteers.

If chemefreak for example had devoted half the amount of time he has spent on here as a CD to his clan rather than the clan community, imagine how great his clan could have been. Ditto for most current CDs.

Being a CD is like trying to herd cats in the dark whilst blindfolded, hobbled, wearing earplugs, and handcuffs. Should we really force the clan community to deal with incompetents voted in by narrow minded, short sighted special interest groups.

A small glimpse of the future being called for by some

Imagine if you will a clan community being run by clueless, verbose publicity whores. Whores who have promised any number of unreasonable election sweeteners that they have no clue how to implement. The clan section shudders to a halt as a bunch of mouth breathing pinko trolls point their fingers at each other, stamping their feet, accepting no responsibility for the mess they have created, all the while blaming admin, microsoft, the servers, and anyone who criticises them. I would be pissing myself laughing as the new and improved CD's scrambled around trying to find ways to blame their present chaos on past CD's......... Meanwhile those self same strident voices who called for a vote in the first place would be blaming the voting process, rewriting history, and preening in front of mirrors telling themselves "you look very smart today"


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Please note that I'm approaching things from a cynics viewpoint. Expect the worst and your never disappointed. Expecting the worst, also leaves me open to be pleasantly surprised sometimes. I could be wrong, maybe voting for CD's would usher in a utopian future with unicorns for everyone to ride, peace, calm, justice and mercy for all. I doubt it, but you know I'm a cynic.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:24 am

BoganGod wrote:I note that some of those most critical of CD's and most rabidly in favour of voting for CD appointments have, or have had a wish to be treated differently than everyone else.


This is a nonsense insinuation. I want elected CD's so that the collective will of the clan world is especially respected. You have absolutely no proof to back-up your assertion that I or anyone else wants special treatment through elections. In fact, the concept is ludicrous on its face.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby BoganGod on Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:56 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
BoganGod wrote:I note that some of those most critical of CD's and most rabidly in favour of voting for CD appointments have, or have had a wish to be treated differently than everyone else.


This is a nonsense insinuation. I want elected CD's so that the collective will of the clan world is especially respected. You have absolutely no proof to back-up your assertion that I or anyone else wants special treatment through elections. In fact, the concept is ludicrous on its face.


This is a highly selective and limited quote.............

Did I mention you? The lady doth protest too much. Translated to be a little more approachable. I seem to have hit a nerve with my worst case scenario examination of the voting suggestion. Viper could this be a case of where there is smoke, there is fire?

If you had read between the lines, and caught your breathe before taking offence, you would have noted a few things I wrote, DIRECTLY ADDRESSING THE VOTING ISSUE. Issues that in your rush to identify yourself as wanting special treatment you just plum forgot to address. Matter of perspective, whilst your were getting huffy about me touching a nerve and my tone. Did you stop to read beyond the tone? Might I suggest you do so. For your benefit alone, apologies to other readers. I have jotted down a few things again, and/or in more detail.

If the vote is voluntary it is not the collective will of the clan world. It is the will of those motivated(probably by personal axes to grind) to vote. How many people have folks in their clan that never read the forums? All of us I'm sure. A lot of clan members just turn up to play.

CC is not a democracy, it is a privately owned internet game site. Premium members pay for the right to play more than 4games and a few other little bells and whistles.

You are asking for special treatment for members of clans. I believe Lindax has already had a two page on and off attempt to explain this to you. Let me try. There is no precedent for general members of the CC community to vote on players becoming mods, directors, or admin. These 3terms I'm using to describe people with funny coloured user names, not members of social user groups that are associated with sections of CC, Tournaments for example. This is what you failed to grasp when Lindax repeatedly explained it, then when you finally admitted that you were confused, and there was no precedent for election of mods. You then continued on singing from the same song sheet.

You want the "collective will" of the clan community to be ESPECIALLY(here is the special again....) respected. Would you pay extra for the privilege? Why should we the clan community be more special than the general users not in a clan? You have not thought this through. Quarterly, bi annual, or annual elections for all mod positions, to be fair across the board to all players, and prospective mods. A lot of organisational time tied up there.

You have failed to make a coherent argument for your suggestion. Your attempts at reasoning and justification for your suggestion have all been ably refuted. Rather than go away and rethink, hone, and perfect your idea(major retool, apply logic, perspective, play devil's advocate with yourself, attempt to use critical reasoning skills), you have stayed here to repeat yourself. You haven't added anything new.

Start a thread in suggestions.


As I clearly stated in my previous post, I'm looking at this from a highly cynical perspective. Surely though your not so blind that you can't appreciate how nonsensical some of your posturing and strident cries of I wanna, I wanna(yes gross simplification, dramatic license, readers with irony enabled will understand), appear to more contemplative folk.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby HardAttack on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:03 am

Is application period over ?
Am i any late to apply ? #-o

:(
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby BoganGod on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:09 am

HardAttack wrote:Is application period over ?
Am i any late to apply ? #-o

:(


you would get my vote over viper...... If I was forced to vote to make the election fair and equitable.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby HardAttack on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:20 am

VioIet wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
Which ones are elitist? The reluctant Head Clan Director Leehar? Nicky that works her ass off for clans? Or me, who has devoted hundreds (if not thousands) of hours to clans over the past 2.5 years? Pray tell...who do you speak of?


My statement speaks for itself. I see no point to finger pointing at individuals though. And, I can't help but notice that you skipped over the concept of elections.



I agree with Viper here. I am not at all confident that the current clan mods/directors can make a good decision. They lack common sense. Time spent has nothing to do with it. I think that the general public (those who are currently members of a clan) should be allowed to vote for who they would like to see in a leadership position.


I personally think of it that mods, especially clan mods are doing a hard work that we all should have our clappers for...
In life, there is no real body of a perfect picture. We are human beings, so are mods and we all (including mods) can make mistakes, or our decisions may and may not very well be the best all the time...This is a very subjective measurement however. It is when you are not confident for a mod's decision, what are your criterias ? How do you come to such a conclusion ? And something that they decide may NOT good look to you while may very well look for 2-3 more people around...Well, we have to trust em, we have to believe em, we have to support them till we see a huge abuse if ever come by them and yet no little piece of such abuse happened ever in last years from the day they established/formed to now.

Handing the right for public to vote for new CDs is pretty dumb idea IMO, which has the thick risk of letting some VERY UNDESIRED names for the postion to happen to be one of the directors. (example : hardattack and some previously banned clan society)

So, to me, this of your post Violet, makes no any sense to me.
Marking it as a poor comment if i have got any right to...

O:)

I trust your decisions CDs. You have been doing amazing job long time now and still same.
Good luck, big respect. =D>

O:)
Last edited by HardAttack on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby HardAttack on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:20 am

BoganGod wrote:
HardAttack wrote:Is application period over ?
Am i any late to apply ? #-o

:(


you would get my vote over viper...... If I was forced to vote to make the election fair and equitable.


lolol
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:00 pm

BG: Putting aside your ad hominem nonsense; I'll de-personalize it. Nobody that wants a voting system wants "special treatment." In no way, whatsoever does that even begin to make sense.

Also, the fact that CC is a commercial website has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the election of CDs is an applicable system. It's an utterly fallacious point to say otherwise. Nor is it a valid argument to walk us through all the hard work the CDs currently do. A voting system does not diminish anyone's efforts. In fact, if a CD feels his/her job is 'thankless' and gets voted out, then he/she can get that confirmation (so to speak) and decide upon using his/her time for better purposes. The intent of a voting system is to find the CDs that the community thinks will best serve the clanning system during any given period. Nobody should frankly have a problem with that. If you think the CDs are so great and wonderful, then you'll vote for them and they'll have an official validation of the community.
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby greenoaks on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:30 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:BG: Putting aside your ad hominem nonsense; I'll de-personalize it. Nobody that wants a voting system wants "special treatment." In no way, whatsoever does that even begin to make sense.

Also, the fact that CC is a commercial website has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the election of CDs is an applicable system. It's an utterly fallacious point to say otherwise. Nor is it a valid argument to walk us through all the hard work the CDs currently do. A voting system does not diminish anyone's efforts. In fact, if a CD feels his/her job is 'thankless' and gets voted out, then he/she can get that confirmation (so to speak) and decide upon using his/her time for better purposes. The intent of a voting system is to find the CDs that the community thinks will best serve the clanning system during any given period. Nobody should frankly have a problem with that. If you think the CDs are so great and wonderful, then you'll vote for them and they'll have an official validation of the community.

why is CC not allowed to decide who they let volunteer, it is not our site?
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Re: TeamCC Callout: Clan Director Position(s)

Postby ViperOverLord on Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:19 pm

greenoaks wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:why is CC not allowed to decide who they let volunteer, it is not our site?


Who effectively decides now? The CDs or CC? To the best of my knowledge, it is is the CDs. Admin retains the right of refusal under any system.
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