2dimes wrote:I often miss my own point which is. After Yahushua came we no longer need a human priest between us and God. He is still doing that job.
What was the point of including all the St Paul stuff in the bible again?
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2dimes wrote:I often miss my own point which is. After Yahushua came we no longer need a human priest between us and God. He is still doing that job.
hahaha3hahaha wrote:crispybits wrote:OK - forgive any bad typing I'm writing this on my phone.
The Catholic Church teaches that we have an immortal soul.
The Catholic Church teaches that animals do not have an immortal soul.
The Catholic Church teaches that man evolved from animals.
So at some point in our evolutionary history we had no souls and now we do? Or how does that work?
Note that I'm not the one claiming that souls exist - the Catholic Church are the ones doing that. Even if I'm willing to give them that point (and there's a lot to do before I do that) their metaphysics still has some pretty serious issues when they try and mesh it with evolution.
So, the catholic church, who seem to self-admit adhering to tradition and not Biblical scripture, are supposed to represent Biblical scripture? Interesting angle.
As for the soul thing, doesn't evolution teach that life came from non-life and rationality came from the non-rational? Again, some curious points you raise here.
Keep in mind your own version of Christianity does not adhere to the Bible 100%.
Sir, I do believe you enforced to me this very notion, tradition over Scripture. Let us explore then the antithetical teachings, as you have insisted. Please note I speak of these things out of love, and not hatred or condemnation.
- Obviously, we've already gone over that fact that sins can be forgiven by God only, not a priest.
hahaha3hahaha wrote:thegreekdog wrote:From other thread:hahaha3hahaha wrote:crispybits wrote:OK - forgive any bad typing I'm writing this on my phone.
The Catholic Church teaches that we have an immortal soul.
The Catholic Church teaches that animals do not have an immortal soul.
The Catholic Church teaches that man evolved from animals.
So at some point in our evolutionary history we had no souls and now we do? Or how does that work?
Note that I'm not the one claiming that souls exist - the Catholic Church are the ones doing that. Even if I'm willing to give them that point (and there's a lot to do before I do that) their metaphysics still has some pretty serious issues when they try and mesh it with evolution.
So, the catholic church, who seem to self-admit adhering to tradition and not Biblical scripture, are supposed to represent Biblical scripture? Interesting angle.
As for the soul thing, doesn't evolution teach that life came from non-life and rationality came from the non-rational? Again, some curious points you raise here.
Why do you keep typing that? It's inaccurate. Let's have this discussion in the other thread, but what specific things does the Catholic Church adhere to that are antithetical to the Bible (other than "a man behind a screen is my confessor")?
Sir, I do believe you enforced to me this very notion, tradition over Scripture. Let us explore then the antithetical teachings, as you have insisted. Please note I speak of these things out of love, and not hatred or condemnation.
- Obviously, we've already gone over that fact that sins can be forgiven by God only, not a priest. In Catholicism sins are not forgiven by priests; not sure where you got that idea.
- Multiple non-Biblical rituals involving the virgin Mary (ie. praying to her, worshiping her etc.) Where does the Bible state that one cannot pray to or about Mary?
- Worshiping idols What idols to Catholics worship?
- Changing the ten commandments (scrapping #2 and splitting #10 into two separate laws) Okay.
- Purgatory, again, not Biblically supported Where does the Bible say there is no purgatory?
- The alteration of the day of worship (Sabbath) from saturday to sunday to incorporate mithrics into the Roman empire Okay.
- Indulgences (paying money to be given the right to sin) - although I read that this has been outlawed a while back and was only carried about and endorsed by certain members, and was not an official church practice (perhaps you can provide clarification here) This is not currently an official or unofficial Church practice.
- As for their stance on salvation I ask you to explain the official church's doctrine on it, rather than make assumptions (though I read many claims that appall me) I'm not sure what you mean and I'm not sure where you previously asked it.
Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
hahaha3hahaha wrote:thegreekdog wrote:- Obviously, we've already gone over that fact that sins can be forgiven by God only, not a priest. In Catholicism sins are not forgiven by priests; not sure where you got that idea. The sacrament of penance teaches that you confess your sins to a priest, and after some vane ritual (such as reciting hail Mary) your sins will be absolved.Okay, but again priests don't forgive your sins; God does.
- Multiple non-Biblical rituals involving the virgin Mary (ie. praying to her, worshiping her etc.) Where does the Bible state that one cannot pray to or about Mary? Catholicism teaches that Mary is the intercessor between man and God. Let's see what the bible has to say about that.
1 Tim 2:5– For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
John 14:6– Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
As for praying to Mary and worshiping her, this is self explanatory. We are told to worship God only, Mary was never exalted as a diety, end of story.Catholicism does not teach that Mary is an intercessor. We do not treat her as a deity.
- Worshiping idols What idols to Catholics worship? Creed of Pope Pius IV.
“I most firmly assert, that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of the other saints, ought to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration are to be given them.”
Hmm... still don't see the word "worship" but okay. I think Pope Pius IV (1499-1565 I should added) is saying not to destroy the stuff.
- Changing the ten commandments (scrapping #2 and splitting #10 into two separate laws) Okay.Okay? That is your retort for an organized religion changing the Holy law of God?Yes. That seems consistent with your response to not killing adulterers with stones.
- Purgatory, again, not Biblically supported Where does the Bible say there is no purgatory?The Bible doesn't say that unicorns don't exist. Does this mean that they do?No, but if I think unicorns exist does that mean I'm violating the Bible? You seem to be making some very inconsistent arguments. On the one hand, it's okay not to do something the Bible says to do (for your religion), but on the other hand it's not okay to do something the Bible doesn't say anything about.
- The alteration of the day of worship (Sabbath) from saturday to sunday to incorporate mithrics into the Roman empire Okay. Again, seem to be taking these things a little lightly.I don't think the day of the Sabbath is something that should be a focus; so long as the Sabbath is observed, that should be enough.
- Indulgences (paying money to be given the right to sin) - although I read that this has been outlawed a while back and was only carried about and endorsed by certain members, and was not an official church practice (perhaps you can provide clarification here) This is not currently an official or unofficial Church practice. Fair enough.
- As for their stance on salvation I ask you to explain the official church's doctrine on it, rather than make assumptions (though I read many claims that appall me) I'm not sure what you mean and I'm not sure where you previously asked it. I haven't asked you before, I'm asking now. What is the catholic doctrine on salvation? http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... -salvation
See red type above.
See green.
BigBallinStalin wrote:God told me that y'all's christmas-color debate is not appeasing him.
Well put.2dimes wrote:One of the reasons God sent his son was to give everyone access to him. Instead of needing priests as a mediator because at that time they were closer to him.
Unlike the Torah, following christ allows choice, such as bacon, we're all supposed to use our own better judgement to live right instead of blindly following the rules inturpreted by other people. Talking with someone who is a good Christian, maybe some sort of pastor should cause me to desire to follow a rule because it will bring PB&J, instead of being coerced by fear.Keep in mind your own version of Christianity does not adhere to the Bible 100%.
Only one person ever followed the law of the Torah completely and perfectly. Even he defended his followers, after some religious men caught them breaking one of the Ten Commandments in front of him, by picking grain to eat on the sabbath. Not because the Sabbath was unimportant, or that commandment was null and void but because it was only a rule to make a person's life on earth better.
Not every law was so inflexible that if broken it prevents one from continuing to try to live right or get into heaven. Notice no one started picking up rocks, they may have brought signs but I think if they had it probably would have been recorded.
Even when the law was active during the time when God's presence was behind a veil it was not a matter of those laws being unbreakable. They were always a mix of various levels of seriousness and each would have different requirements to be met if broken, for some there was like a fine, for others there might be consequences or punishment.
The reasons the second half of the bible is called the new covenant or testament. In addition to the writings to share the Christ with non Jews, it starts with the gospels which explain how love superseded the lesser law that was mostly designed to lead the clan of Abraham and Sarah to righteousness as a partially undeserved reward.
hahaha3hahaha wrote:thegreekdog wrote:You win dude. You know way more about my religion than I do.
Sorry, I have a habit of getting a bit passionate and argumentative at times.
My points still do stand firm though.
Although I agree with you, the Bible does tell us to confess our sins. All the Roman Catholic church has done is codify it and some penalties more formally than many other churches. I DO argue that this is not what Christ intended, because it does put too much control in the hands of humanity.. do xyz and you get a "free pass" out of the consequences of sin.hahaha3hahaha wrote:The sacrament of penance teaches that you confess your sins to a priest, and after some vane ritual (such as reciting hail Mary) your sins will be absolved.thegreekdog wrote:- Obviously, we've already gone over that fact that sins can be forgiven by God only, not a priest. In Catholicism sins are not forgiven by priests; not sure where you got that idea.
Again, I agree, sort of. Roman Catholics tend to see God as this remote entity and that human need intercessors -- saints and so forth. However, they still see all prayer as going to God. They do NOT see Mary as another God, though their actions can be interpreted as meaning that by some people. They see Mary and the saints as kinds of "lower intercessors". Again, it is a matter of technicality as much as substance.hahaha3hahaha wrote:thegreekdog wrote:Catholicism teaches that Mary is the intercessor between man and God. Let's see what the bible has to say about that.hahaha3hahaha wrote:- Multiple non-Biblical rituals involving the virgin Mary (ie. praying to her, worshiping her etc.) Where does the Bible state that one cannot pray to or about Mary?
1 Tim 2:5– For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
John 14:6– Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
As for praying to Mary and worshiping her, this is self explanatory. We are told to worship God only, Mary was never exalted as a diety, end of story.
hahaha3hahaha wrote:Creed of Pope Pius IV.thegreekdog wrote:- Worshiping idols What idols to Catholics worship?
“I most firmly assert, that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of the other saints, ought to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration are to be given them.”
hahaha3hahaha wrote:Okay? That is your retort for an organized religion changing the Holy law of God?thegreekdog wrote:Okay.hahaha3hahaha wrote:- Changing the ten commandments (scrapping #2 and splitting #10 into two separate laws)
hahaha3hahaha wrote:thegreekdog wrote:The Bible doesn't say that unicorns don't exist. Does this mean that they do?hahaha3hahaha wrote:- Purgatory, again, not Biblically supported Where does the Bible say there is no purgatory?
hahaha3hahaha wrote:Again, seem to be taking these things a little lightly.thegreekdog wrote:Okay.hahaha3hahaha wrote:- The alteration of the day of worship (Sabbath) from saturday to sunday to incorporate mithrics into the Roman empire
Yeah, you answered this one yourself. A guy by the name of Martin Luther took serious exception to a GOOD MANY Roman Catholic practices... and he was followed by a series of other thinkers and reformers (Calvin, Thomas, anyone?). Eventually even the staid and heavily hierarchical Roman Catholic Church agreed with a lot of the major complaints/criticisms, though of course not the fundamental question of whether Popes are spiritual descendents of Christ, with Peter first. (or a few other points, as noted above)hahaha3hahaha wrote:Fair enough.thegreekdog wrote:This is not currently an official or unofficial Church practice.hahaha3hahaha wrote:- Indulgences (paying money to be given the right to sin) - although I read that this has been outlawed a while back and was only carried about and endorsed by certain members, and was not an official church practice (perhaps you can provide clarification here)
I haven't asked you before, I'm asking now. What is the catholic doctrine on salvation?[/quote]thegreekdog wrote:I'm not sure what you mean and I'm not sure where you previously asked it.hahaha3hahaha wrote:- As for their stance on salvation I ask you to explain the official church's doctrine on it, rather than make assumptions (though I read many claims that appall me)
hahaha3hahaha wrote:thegreekdog wrote:You win dude. You know way more about my religion than I do.
Sorry, I have a habit of getting a bit passionate and argumentative at times.
My points still do stand firm though.
hahaha3hahaha wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:...so to say that your view or my view are correct and that the Roman Catholic church's views are wrong is ... well, wrong.
So when white "Christian" Americans decided that the Bible endorsed enslaving black people, despite the fact that they were grossly wrong, and had misinterpreted the Bible, they weren't right or wrong, opposers weren't right or wrong, to think so would be...wrong? What a fallacy. This is dangerous relativism that you incorporate into your religion sir.
hahaha3hahaha wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:hahaha3hahaha wrote:Again, seem to be taking these things a little lightly.thegreekdog wrote:Okay.hahaha3hahaha wrote:- The alteration of the day of worship (Sabbath) from saturday to sunday to incorporate mithrics into the Roman empire
Yeah, so do most Christians. The real answer is a tad complicated, but again... while Christ told us that he came to fulfill the commandments and not to dispel them, he did open the way for people to reasonably question.
This is an issue that requires in-depth study and not a rushed written response at 1am on a public forum. I would be glad to study with you though, if the opportunity arises.
Gillipig wrote:Both Catholicism and Protestantism are heresis, the Orthodox faith is the original Christian faith. Why do you guys believe in a heresy of your religion? My guess would be because your parents were heretics but I'm sure you have some other explanation that at least makes sense to you.
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