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[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:59 pm

Gilligan wrote:
Screenshot please :)

Also do not take anything from BOB. It does not recognize mandatory tags in bonuses. You must have an F region, a M region, and a P region


I will send this to you via PM as its a fog/team game and I don't want to give away our team's positions.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:02 pm

Surely.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby betiko on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:53 pm

Huh, so now you believe me ! :D
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:33 pm

betiko wrote:Huh, so now you believe me ! :D
Yep I can't see the value (it is 7n) but as soon as it's my turn I'm going to try and attack it to see if I can.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:28 pm

I just tried this with IcePack. It appears the game engine yet again has a conditional border bug. I can attack *and* conquer the Horde, but I cannot see a value.

The conditional borders are functional though, if you own barbarians you can take the horde and if you don't, you can't. I have alerted BigWham and Blakebowling.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:46 pm

Gilligan wrote:I just tried this with IcePack. It appears the game engine yet again has a conditional border bug. I can attack *and* conquer the Horde, but I cannot see a value.

The conditional borders are functional though, if you own barbarians you can take the horde and if you don't, you can't. I have alerted BigWham and Blakebowling.


Confirmed I was able to attack but don't have the troops to conquer it there yet.

I also caught a potential problem with my recently posted xml where I had a continent and a territory names the same and the territory used in a conditional ... good thing is was the new continents for the kingdoms so I changed the kingdom continents to read Human Kingdom, Dragonkin Kingdom etc ... they are only used for the new +1 bonus for kingdoms and the "Human" etc territory are used in the conditionals elsewhere.

I'm glad I could make a map that was so complicated it pretty much pushed the engine till bugs started popping up ;)

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:54 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:I just tried this with IcePack. It appears the game engine yet again has a conditional border bug. I can attack *and* conquer the Horde, but I cannot see a value.

The conditional borders are functional though, if you own barbarians you can take the horde and if you don't, you can't. I have alerted BigWham and Blakebowling.


Confirmed I was able to attack but don't have the troops to conquer it there yet.

I also caught a potential problem with my recently posted xml where I had a continent and a territory names the same and the territory used in a conditional ... good thing is was the new continents for the kingdoms so I changed the kingdom continents to read Human Kingdom, Dragonkin Kingdom etc ... they are only used for the new +1 bonus for kingdoms and the "Human" etc territory are used in the conditionals elsewhere.

I'm glad I could make a map that was so complicated it pretty much pushed the engine till bugs started popping up ;)

=D13=


It's got nothing to do with you, dolomite (I'm FAIRLY certain of that). This is a bug that will likely affect all of the maps with conditional borders.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:36 pm

This should be fixed now.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby JamesKer1 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:49 pm

Way too unbalanced as sphinx or tree folk. The way I would go takes 5 territs to go through,while other places only have three? The sea might be a good shortcut, but I'm not in favor of having a reinf'ment line cut off.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:10 pm

JamesKer1 wrote:Way too unbalanced as sphinx or tree folk. The way I would go takes 5 territs to go through,while other places only have three? The sea might be a good shortcut, but I'm not in favor of having a reinf'ment line cut off.
I'm not sure what you are saying.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:11 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
JamesKer1 wrote:Way too unbalanced as sphinx or tree folk. The way I would go takes 5 territs to go through,while other places only have three? The sea might be a good shortcut, but I'm not in favor of having a reinf'ment line cut off.
I'm not sure what you are saying.

=D13=


I think he means that the four cornered races (sphinx, dragon, lizard, treefolk) have more territs to go through to get to the forbidden lands
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby JamesKer1 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:13 pm

Sorry, to go through to forbidden lands*. Sphinx would have to take 5 territories and other groups only have to take three. With the right play, sphinx could have no chance at winning and be ousted by round 3 no problem in a trench game. The 30 on forbidden lands might help some- but a two turn difference on getting to the lands and not having to use as many troops makes a big difference.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:26 pm

JamesKer1 wrote:Sorry, to go through to forbidden lands*. Sphinx would have to take 5 territories and other groups only have to take three. With the right play, sphinx could have no chance at winning and be ousted by round 3 no problem in a trench game. The 30 on forbidden lands might help some- but a two turn difference on getting to the lands and not having to use as many troops makes a big difference.


I see ... yes that is true the map is unfair from that perspective ... however if I start on yeti and I take V3 and M2 ... it will still be several turns to grab the Forbidden Lands ...whereas you could easily start on Sphinx and and take M3 and P4 and then take me out of the game while I waited to have enough troops.

This map is not perfectly balanced. The 4 corners have farther to go to get to the forbidden lands. And people that start with certain special features will be at a slight advantage. It is the players job to identofy who might be the biggest threat and target them first.

The forbidden lands are powerful but outside of a few early games I ave not seen it used much. People seem to find just standard steamrollering to be good enough.

=D13=
Last edited by dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:28 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
JamesKer1 wrote:Sorry, to go through to forbidden lands*. Sphinx would have to take 5 territories and other groups only have to take three. With the right play, sphinx could have no chance at winning and be ousted by round 3 no problem in a trench game. The 30 on forbidden lands might help some- but a two turn difference on getting to the lands and not having to use as many troops makes a big difference.


I see ... yes that is true the map is unfair from that perspective ... however if I start on yeti and I take V3 and M2 ... it will still be several turns to grab the Forbidden Lands ...whereas you could easily start on Sphinx and and take M3 and P4 and then take me out of the game while I waited to have enough troops.

This map is not perfectly balanced. The 4 corners have farther to go to get to the forbidden lands. And people that start with certain special features will be at a slight advantage. It is the players job to identofy who might be the biggest threat and target them first.

The forbidden lands are powerful but outside of a few early games I ave not seen it used much. People seem to find just standard steamrollering to be good enough.

=D13=


Is the decision made about the losing condition? Is it being kept or getting rid of?

If it's gotten rid of, that would make the forbidden lands much more valuable.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:29 pm

Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
JamesKer1 wrote:Sorry, to go through to forbidden lands*. Sphinx would have to take 5 territories and other groups only have to take three. With the right play, sphinx could have no chance at winning and be ousted by round 3 no problem in a trench game. The 30 on forbidden lands might help some- but a two turn difference on getting to the lands and not having to use as many troops makes a big difference.


I see ... yes that is true the map is unfair from that perspective ... however if I start on yeti and I take V3 and M2 ... it will still be several turns to grab the Forbidden Lands ...whereas you could easily start on Sphinx and and take M3 and P4 and then take me out of the game while I waited to have enough troops.

This map is not perfectly balanced. The 4 corners have farther to go to get to the forbidden lands. And people that start with certain special features will be at a slight advantage. It is the players job to identofy who might be the biggest threat and target them first.

The forbidden lands are powerful but outside of a few early games I ave not seen it used much. People seem to find just standard steamrollering to be good enough.

=D13=


Is the decision made about the losing condition? Is it being kept or getting rid of?

If it's gotten rid of, that would make the forbidden lands much more valuable.


The losing condition is being changed so that you are only out if you have no basic lands or kingdoms ... but if you have a kingdom and no basic land then you can get back in the game

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:31 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
JamesKer1 wrote:Sorry, to go through to forbidden lands*. Sphinx would have to take 5 territories and other groups only have to take three. With the right play, sphinx could have no chance at winning and be ousted by round 3 no problem in a trench game. The 30 on forbidden lands might help some- but a two turn difference on getting to the lands and not having to use as many troops makes a big difference.


I see ... yes that is true the map is unfair from that perspective ... however if I start on yeti and I take V3 and M2 ... it will still be several turns to grab the Forbidden Lands ...whereas you could easily start on Sphinx and and take M3 and P4 and then take me out of the game while I waited to have enough troops.

This map is not perfectly balanced. The 4 corners have farther to go to get to the forbidden lands. And people that start with certain special features will be at a slight advantage. It is the players job to identofy who might be the biggest threat and target them first.

The forbidden lands are powerful but outside of a few early games I ave not seen it used much. People seem to find just standard steamrollering to be good enough.

=D13=


Is the decision made about the losing condition? Is it being kept or getting rid of?

If it's gotten rid of, that would make the forbidden lands much more valuable.


The losing condition is being changed so that you are only out if you have no basic lands or kingdoms ... but if you have a kingdom and no basic land then you can get back in the game

=D13=


Okay, so either way, to eliminate someone you pretty much have to go through forbidden lands. Unless you concoct a new way to attack kingdoms.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:34 pm

Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
JamesKer1 wrote:Sorry, to go through to forbidden lands*. Sphinx would have to take 5 territories and other groups only have to take three. With the right play, sphinx could have no chance at winning and be ousted by round 3 no problem in a trench game. The 30 on forbidden lands might help some- but a two turn difference on getting to the lands and not having to use as many troops makes a big difference.


I see ... yes that is true the map is unfair from that perspective ... however if I start on yeti and I take V3 and M2 ... it will still be several turns to grab the Forbidden Lands ...whereas you could easily start on Sphinx and and take M3 and P4 and then take me out of the game while I waited to have enough troops.

This map is not perfectly balanced. The 4 corners have farther to go to get to the forbidden lands. And people that start with certain special features will be at a slight advantage. It is the players job to identofy who might be the biggest threat and target them first.

The forbidden lands are powerful but outside of a few early games I ave not seen it used much. People seem to find just standard steamrollering to be good enough.

=D13=


Is the decision made about the losing condition? Is it being kept or getting rid of?

If it's gotten rid of, that would make the forbidden lands much more valuable.


The losing condition is being changed so that you are only out if you have no basic lands or kingdoms ... but if you have a kingdom and no basic land then you can get back in the game

=D13=


Okay, so either way, to eliminate someone you pretty much have to go through forbidden lands. Unless you concoct a new way to attack kingdoms.


Hmmm... yes that is a bit troubling ... I need to give that some thought.... maybe adding a victory condition of 1/2 the map or all of your favored and adjacent to favored territories.

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:40 pm

What about if you control ALL favored territories, you can attack its kingdom??

eg, if you own T1, T2, T3, T4, you can attack Yeti directly.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:19 pm

Gilligan wrote:What about if you control ALL favored territories, you can attack its kingdom??

eg, if you own T1, T2, T3, T4, you can attack Yeti directly.


That would be interesting but then you would grab it and have an instant +8 bonus as it would grant you new favored territories.

I wonder if a "gateway" space in the #1 space that is unlocked like that ... so hold T1,T2,T3,T4 to assault Gateway and the gateway can bombard the kingdom space. If you hold the kingdom you could assault the gateway to build up a defense there. Maybe start it at 5 neutral.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby ubcman64 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:24 am

Is it the object of this map to make zero sense?......You've succeeded. Worst map on CC, hands down.
How did this map make it to BETA status?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:49 am

ubcman64 wrote:Is it the object of this map to make zero sense?......You've succeeded. Worst map on CC, hands down.
How did this map make it to BETA status?

Yes it was :lol:

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby DearCyrus on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:19 am

Lost your update too! That sucks
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:14 pm

DearCyrus wrote:Lost your update too! That sucks


Yep I will re-post it soon

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby DearCyrus on Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:24 pm

I was Thinking about the post from yesterday, and I still think that think the gamma bomb should stay separate from the forbidden lands... What if gamma could bombard only basic (non-special) lands? Keep it different enough and also not too powerful.Then Up the killer on FL from 20 to 25...
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:36 pm

Here are the latest changes. I wrote a few paragraphs last night but it was lost. Anyway the changes should balance out the early game and make it a bit more fair when going after the forbidden lands to eliminate your opponents.

Please note that this mat is not balance or fair to every Kingdom/Special Feature combo. Just as you must identify which player on a classic map got the good random drop it is your job as the player of this map to identify which player got the better combo and work with the other players to keep them from getting those bonuses while you work to get your own.

=D13=

Graphic Changes
  • kingdoms are auto 2 (down from 3) and grants +1 bonus (a little less auto and 1 extra troop to deploy. This may promote stacking a bit in team games but then again maybe not).
  • druid bonus change (lets druids get a bonus earlier based on distribution of J and F territories).
  • elementalist bonus change (lets elementalists get a bonus earlier based on distribution of J and F territories).
  • aquatic bonus change (added +1 for minimum 1 adjacent to sea) this mill make max 8 instead of the previous 7 but give a bonus earlier.
  • seas killer 2 down from 3 (more attractive for aquatic).
  • cultists changed to cosmic.
  • the bomb has been removed.
  • changed dwellers to +1 each cavern and +2 for all 3 caverns. (slight decrease based on the caverns adjacent ability being powerful on this small of a map).
  • changed miners/mines to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the single mine bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit)
  • changed undead/crypts to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the single crypt bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit)
  • changed wizards special to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the double special bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit as the forbidden lands bordering territories can be unbalanced for some kingdoms)
  • changed the losing condition to be when you only control a "special features" which includes "horde and underworld" you are eliminated. This will make it so that when you have no troops that can actually affect the board you are out of the game. However if you hold only the "underworld" you will actually not be eliminated you as you can still assault minions on the main map but this is not noted anywhere as players should honestly be able to figure that out and I am out of space on the map for that anyway.
  • added the following "If you hold no basic land D,F,J,M,P,S,T,V your Kingdom may assault any of your favored territories"
  • removed the -1 adjustment for starting bonus making the minimum 1 so that when you start the game you get a minimum 1 basic bonus +1 for a kingdom, and +1 for your favored territory. This will grant you 3 troops to deploy. In a 1-4 player game you will have 5 troops to deploy. With increased neutral buffers on the map and 2 start positions in 1-4 player games I see this as working out fine but we will keep a watchful eye on it.
  • The borders of the Forbidden Lands are now closed to intruders. You must first conquer 3 of your 4 available favored territories then the border will open for you.

Territory Symbols
  • J2 - Crypts now J2 - Radiation
  • V2 now V2 - Crypts
  • F2 Mines - now F2 Crypt
  • V4 - Crypts - Now V4 - Mines
  • P2 - Caverns now P2 - Crypts
  • M2 - Crypts now M2 - Caverns

Cultists / Cosmic
  • Cultists renamed Cosmic
  • a 4th Radiation symbol added to map
  • [Radiation] +1* (each)
  • 2 Radiation = Radiation can assault other Radiation.
  • 3 Radiation = Radiation can assault the Forbidden Lands


Non Graphic Changes
  • reduce underworld to 5n start
  • increase 5n starts to 7n for P4, J3, S4, T4, F3, and M4 (should help discourage early assault)
  • reduce 5n starts to 3n on V2 and D2 (should focus players as this as the best route to the middle)

Krazy Khaos Ensues
  • max 2 start positions (2,3,4 player games will get 2 starts) this means if you start with Dragonkin, Gnomes, Cultists, Fanatics, and Undead you would have "Undead Fanatic Cultists" that got favored territory bonuses from both Volcanic and Mountains. This will make bonuses interesting as overlaps will occur where some territories are both favored and adjacent to favored making it very complicated. Barbarians would have verl little chance of any territories being neither favored or adjacent to favored.

Small v2.0.5
http://imageshack.com/a/img812/3838/pudn.png
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Large v2.0.5
http://imageshack.com/a/img34/2365/famf.png
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