Battle For Iraq! [Quenched]

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Battle For Iraq! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:55 pm

BATTLE FOR IRAQ!

The quagmire is now yours. Rife with sectarian and ethnic violence this battlefield is anything but simple. Take hold of the dwindling Baathists, the stealthy al-Qaeda, or the all powerful US army and try as you might to get control of this barren sand ridden landscape.

Can you unite an ethnic majority in your favour? Or perhaps take control of Iraq's soul, Baghdad, it won't be easy.

17 starting provinces.
12 starting cities.
10 starting areas of Bagdad.

48 possible other territories.

To align a city with a combatant just take over the city then choose to take over one of the combatants, its that simple. But while it may be harder for the Americans to win the favor of a city, the reward is great, or take the easy road with the Baathists, the choice is yours.

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Last edited by mibi on Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:26 pm, edited 26 times in total.
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Postby DiM on Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:03 pm

whare's bin laden?

add him on the map and make him worth 100 armies :lol:


PS: i'm not in the mood of extensive analysys but as soon as i get some sleep i'll do it. so far it seems interesting.
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Postby mibi on Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:53 pm

DiM wrote:whare's bin laden?

add him on the map and make him worth 100 armies :lol:


PS: i'm not in the mood of extensive analysys but as soon as i get some sleep i'll do it. so far it seems interesting.


I don't know where you've been, but bin Laden is in Afghanistan or Pakistan, but certainly not Iraq.
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Postby DiM on Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:56 pm

mibi wrote:
DiM wrote:whare's bin laden?

add him on the map and make him worth 100 armies :lol:


PS: i'm not in the mood of extensive analysys but as soon as i get some sleep i'll do it. so far it seems interesting.


I don't know where you've been, but bin Laden is in Afghanistan or Pakistan, but certainly not Iraq.


actually i thnk he's somewhere on the french riviera sipping on a cappuccino and smoking a ciggar reading a newspaper and laughing at the idiots looking for him, but that's another discussion. :roll:
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Postby asl80 on Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:05 am

if this is the battle for iraq, why is al-Qaeda a prominent force - they didn't set in there till the basthist's were defeated by US - afterwards strengthening their position there. (At least, this is held by many, especially those opposed to the Coalition of the Willing's dubious line that somewhow Iraq was part of the War On Terror, or was it because they had WMD's, or wait no - it was to overthrow a dictator, ahh memory's fading me, actually it was to bring democracy - either way, too many tears in the world)
i.e; its surely a bit contentious to use such a cloudy contempoary context like this. Lots of perspectives with lots of divergent opinions on the situation.

Like your maps Mibi - but i dunno about this topic.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:09 am

Mildly interesting idea, but I don't think it'll hold my interest too long. I think there must be better ideas out there for you to work on.


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Dazed and confoozled...

Postby Piestar on Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:23 am

Forgive my ignorance, but please explain alignments, in this context? How does it impact the game? And how is it determined?

thanks in advance...
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:45 am

asl80 wrote:if this is the battle for iraq, why is al-Qaeda a prominent force - they didn't set in there till the basthist's were defeated by US - afterwards strengthening their position there. (At least, this is held by many, especially those opposed to the Coalition of the Willing's dubious line that somewhow Iraq was part of the War On Terror, or was it because they had WMD's, or wait no - it was to overthrow a dictator, ahh memory's fading me, actually it was to bring democracy - either way, too many tears in the world)
i.e; its surely a bit contentious to use such a cloudy contempoary context like this. Lots of perspectives with lots of divergent opinions on the situation.

Like your maps Mibi - but i dunno about this topic.


well if this map were to play out like a history book the baathist would be defeated first then it would be US vs insurgents, al-qaeda etc. But this map is historical in context its also a open ended game so its possible that someone aligning with the baathist can win. so i just put the main combatants in there and let them all duke it out. i suppose i can also put the mahdi army in there as well.
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Re: Dazed and confoozled...

Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:51 am

Piestar wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but please explain alignments, in this context? How does it impact the game? And how is it determined?

thanks in advance...


the alignments work like this... suppose you have the ninawa province and then you take the city of mosul, you then have the option to align that city with the baathist, the US, or al-qaeda by attacking the neutral in the corresponding box. the more cities you take and the more you have of a similar alignment, the bigger the bonus is. 5 cities aligned with the baathist could be +7 or something.

the instructions obviously need to be more clear.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:49 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Mildly interesting idea, but I don't think it'll hold my interest too long. I think there must be better ideas out there for you to work on.


--Andy


Nice to see you posting so early in a thread. It's unfortunate that it wont hold your interest but what I think is missing from CC is an Iraq map. With so much media, money and attention invested in the Iraq war it's quite shocking that an Iraq map hasn't made it through the foundry yet. The middle east map is ok but seems to hark back to an earlier time.

Other Iraq maps in the foundry have just been the country split into territories which doesn't do any justice to Iraqs current relevance. Once the bugs are worked out of my map it will work on multiple levels to achieve the complexity that the Iraq war is. Iraq is a civil war of opposing ethnic groups, religion groups and opposing interests. I think this map can reflect that and translate to some interesting gameplay.

not to mention my other ideas are waiting for xml/founry updates.
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Postby DiM on Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:45 pm

one idea for this map would be to introduce the "accidental" bombardments from the americans upon the civilians.

it would be a nice feature to have random bombardments on civilians because of "failures" in the missile guiding system.

code it in the xml that once every 3 turns a random (non-american) terit is bombarded.

then add bonus for "shock and awe"
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Postby DiM on Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:50 pm

mibi wrote:With so much media, money and attention invested in the Iraq war it's quite shocking that an Iraq map hasn't made it through the foundry yet.


it would be interesting but (imho) inappropriate because to be honest i don't want to see a map of the glorification of innocent slaughter conducted by the americans.

let's make a map of the war in serbia. and add bonuses only if you own an american spot and bombard innocent terits.

or let's make a map of hiroshima and nagasaki. make lots of terits call them innocents and each player (with american names) can bombard all the terits.

the point is this is a very delicate subject and no matter how you deal with it and no matter how good the gameplay or the graphics will be, some people will be offended. of course most people will love it because the most players on this site are from usa.


i wanted to do an auschwitz-birkenau map. quickly dismissed it because it's simply a rotten thing from the past and it's best to let it go and forget it.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:12 pm

DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:With so much media, money and attention invested in the Iraq war it's quite shocking that an Iraq map hasn't made it through the foundry yet.


it would be interesting but (imho) inappropriate because to be honest i don't want to see a map of the glorification of innocent slaughter conducted by the americans.

let's make a map of the war in serbia. and add bonuses only if you own an american spot and bombard innocent terits.

or let's make a map of hiroshima and nagasaki. make lots of terits call them innocents and each player (with american names) can bombard all the terits.

the point is this is a very delicate subject and no matter how you deal with it and no matter how good the gameplay or the graphics will be, some people will be offended. of course most people will love it because the most players on this site are from usa.


i wanted to do an auschwitz-birkenau map. quickly dismissed it because it's simply a rotten thing from the past and it's best to let it go and forget it.


no offense DiM, but that is the dumbest comment I have heard in months. Iraq is not analogous with hiroshima, auschwitz or any of your hyperboles.

I am sure you raised the same issue about the other war maps, Pearl Harbor et all, where thousands of civilians died. Right?

Oh an how is this map glorifying anything anyways?
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:16 pm

DiM wrote:one idea for this map would be to introduce the "accidental" bombardments from the americans upon the civilians.

it would be a nice feature to have random bombardments on civilians because of "failures" in the missile guiding system.

code it in the xml that once every 3 turns a random (non-american) terit is bombarded.

then add bonus for "shock and awe"



I'm glad thousands of dead civilians is a joke to you.
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Postby ps2civxr20 on Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:59 pm

i think that you should mix the ethnic groups on the borders like in the provence where tikrit is
(sorry if i make no sence)
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:20 pm

Finding an appropriate balance between concept, realism, and execution is key. Look at the Bamboo Jack...at first the map met a number of people against it. A lot of people determined that taking over 'bodies' wasn't something that people really wanted to do when they played World Domination. It was reworked, etc. The map now is moving along and has much more support than it did earlier, mostly due to its execution regarding balance between making a map of delicate subject matter and a map for play.

The best advice is to just be open and receptive to people's issues and criticisms, and then perhaps you can craft a map that is fun to play on, without "insulting" anyone, anything, etc.


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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:38 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Finding an appropriate balance between concept, realism, and execution is key. Look at the Bamboo Jack...at first the map met a number of people against it. A lot of people determined that taking over 'bodies' wasn't something that people really wanted to do when they played World Domination. It was reworked, etc. The map now is moving along and has much more support than it did earlier, mostly due to its execution regarding balance between making a map of delicate subject matter and a map for play.

The best advice is to just be open and receptive to people's issues and criticisms, and then perhaps you can craft a map that is fun to play on, without "insulting" anyone, anything, etc.


--Andy


Well than I need some help identifying which are the sensitive aspects of this map that need to be worked on. DiM seems to think this map represents the innocent slaughter of civilians by Americans. As if there were no innocents killed in the numerous other wars we have fought, many already represented here on CC. If DiM could elude to the more outrageous parts of this map I might be open to suggestions.

But what I don't want to do is get political on this one. Anti or pro-Bush/America/whatever should stay in the flamewars. This map is going to represent an ongoing conflict. If people have a serious problem with war, perhaps they should stay away from a website with "conquer" in its title.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:41 pm

ps2civxr20 wrote:i think that you should mix the ethnic groups on the borders like in the provence where tikrit is
(sorry if i make no sence)


thats a good idea. I wanted to represent the mixing of ethnic groups but didn't want to add seperate bonus for Sunni/Arab but I suppose if the tikrit province is require for the bonus of two ethnic groups that would work well.

the only problem is that there is only 3 ethnic bonuses so and territory required of multiple ethnic groups will see some serious fighting....

hmm... i think that would actually work well in the sectarian violence theme, great idea!
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Postby DiM on Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:05 pm

mibi wrote:
DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:With so much media, money and attention invested in the Iraq war it's quite shocking that an Iraq map hasn't made it through the foundry yet.


it would be interesting but (imho) inappropriate because to be honest i don't want to see a map of the glorification of innocent slaughter conducted by the americans.

let's make a map of the war in serbia. and add bonuses only if you own an american spot and bombard innocent terits.

or let's make a map of hiroshima and nagasaki. make lots of terits call them innocents and each player (with american names) can bombard all the terits.

the point is this is a very delicate subject and no matter how you deal with it and no matter how good the gameplay or the graphics will be, some people will be offended. of course most people will love it because the most players on this site are from usa.


i wanted to do an auschwitz-birkenau map. quickly dismissed it because it's simply a rotten thing from the past and it's best to let it go and forget it.


no offense DiM, but that is the dumbest comment I have heard in months. Iraq is not analogous with hiroshima, auschwitz or any of your hyperboles.

I am sure you raised the same issue about the other war maps, Pearl Harbor et all, where thousands of civilians died. Right?

Oh an how is this map glorifying anything anyways?


you're from canada from what i see in your profile. please talk to some americans and ask them what they feel about this war. then go and ask people from other countries that are directly or indirectly involved.

1st of all the common american has no idea where iraq is on a map.
2nd despite having close to no knowledge about this war they are very certain it's a good thing. that the good peace loving americans have went there to bring old peace and defeat terorism. i don't know what your opinion is on this but 2 of my cousins and a friend were there. they talked to the troops from other countries they saw the civilians and they saw how the stupid brainwashed american troops killed raped and did anything they wanted to civilians.

the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

the american troops the so called bringers of peace that were supposed to search the imaginary weapons of mass destruction were actually the only bad guys there.

you want to hear about target practice on civilians? about beatings and humiliations? about soldiers that publically urinated on the victims of their beatings or even on corpses?

will you have all this in your map? because, after all this is what's going on there. and its all in the name of peace.

you see the analogy now? it's not the fact that civilians are killed, this is in all wars and it's unfortunately unavoidable, but about the fact that the strong guy bullies and humiliates the little guy. that's what the americans did at nagasaki and hiroshima that's what the germans did at auschwitz.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.
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Postby d.gishman on Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:25 pm

DiM wrote:the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.


Please do not compare the Iraq War to Auschwitz-Birkenau: doesn't matter how much you hate Bush and/or America, there is no way that the Iraq War equates to a systematic genocide of an entire ethnic group. In fact, most of the atrocities were committed by the insurgents not the Americans. There were isolated cases of course, but they do not reflect the U.S Army in general.

Also, the Japanese were much worse... the Rape of Nanking/Nanjing, comfort women, lack of respect for Geneva conventions, target practice, biological testing on Chinese/Korean civilians, treatment of Australians in pow camps, oppression of conquered civilians make the japanese much worse than what the americans ever did. We have a map about pearl harbor, why can't we have a map about the iraq war? The worst part about the whole Japanese crimes against humanity is that most of them still deny it.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:49 pm

DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:
DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:With so much media, money and attention invested in the Iraq war it's quite shocking that an Iraq map hasn't made it through the foundry yet.


it would be interesting but (imho) inappropriate because to be honest i don't want to see a map of the glorification of innocent slaughter conducted by the americans.

let's make a map of the war in serbia. and add bonuses only if you own an american spot and bombard innocent terits.

or let's make a map of hiroshima and nagasaki. make lots of terits call them innocents and each player (with american names) can bombard all the terits.

the point is this is a very delicate subject and no matter how you deal with it and no matter how good the gameplay or the graphics will be, some people will be offended. of course most people will love it because the most players on this site are from usa.


i wanted to do an auschwitz-birkenau map. quickly dismissed it because it's simply a rotten thing from the past and it's best to let it go and forget it.


no offense DiM, but that is the dumbest comment I have heard in months. Iraq is not analogous with hiroshima, auschwitz or any of your hyperboles.

I am sure you raised the same issue about the other war maps, Pearl Harbor et all, where thousands of civilians died. Right?

Oh an how is this map glorifying anything anyways?


you're from canada from what i see in your profile. please talk to some americans and ask them what they feel about this war. then go and ask people from other countries that are directly or indirectly involved.

1st of all the common american has no idea where iraq is on a map.
2nd despite having close to no knowledge about this war they are very certain it's a good thing. that the good peace loving americans have went there to bring old peace and defeat terorism. i don't know what your opinion is on this but 2 of my cousins and a friend were there. they talked to the troops from other countries they saw the civilians and they saw how the stupid brainwashed american troops killed raped and did anything they wanted to civilians.

the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

the american troops the so called bringers of peace that were supposed to search the imaginary weapons of mass destruction were actually the only bad guys there.

you want to hear about target practice on civilians? about beatings and humiliations? about soldiers that publically urinated on the victims of their beatings or even on corpses?

will you have all this in your map? because, after all this is what's going on there. and its all in the name of peace.

you see the analogy now? it's not the fact that civilians are killed, this is in all wars and it's unfortunately unavoidable, but about the fact that the strong guy bullies and humiliates the little guy. that's what the americans did at nagasaki and hiroshima that's what the germans did at auschwitz.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.


First of all, I am a US citizen who moved to Canada a few months ago, my father and brother are both veterans, of Vietnam and Iraq prospectively.

Second of all, your arguments are so flaw it would be a waste of my time to rebuttal.

Third of all, this map is no more political than D-Day or Pearl Harbor, let
s not let who-the-fuck-cares politics into the foundry.
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Postby DiM on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:02 pm

d.gishman wrote:
DiM wrote:the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.


Please do not compare the Iraq War to Auschwitz-Birkenau: doesn't matter how much you hate Bush and/or America, there is no way that the Iraq War equates to a systematic genocide of an entire ethnic group. In fact, most of the atrocities were committed by the insurgents not the Americans. There were isolated cases of course, but they do not reflect the U.S Army in general.

Also, the Japanese were much worse... the Rape of Nanking/Nanjing, comfort women, lack of respect for Geneva conventions, target practice, biological testing on Chinese/Korean civilians, treatment of Australians in pow camps, oppression of conquered civilians make the japanese much worse than what the americans ever did. We have a map about pearl harbor, why can't we have a map about the iraq war? The worst part about the whole Japanese crimes against humanity is that most of them still deny it.


you see, the problem here is that in the pearl harbor map we have just that, the battle of pearl harbor. nothing else about what the japanese did or didn't. whilst here we have a map about what the americans do.

notice i said japanese did and americans do.

that's another problem i see. because the ww1+2 are something in the past they can be talked about much more easily. at most we have grand fathers that fought in those wars. but in this war we could have brothers cousins or in some cases even kids.

it's easier to talk about a grief from the past than about one from the present.

as mibi said a lot of money and media has been invested in this war and because of this i'm sick and tired of seeing on the tv reading in the newspapers or hearing on the radio that the brave amarican army went there to bring peace and destroy the evil. i'm sick and tired because everytime i see an american soldier giving an interview about how they struggle to bring peace i immediatelly imagine that soldier killing a civilian for fun as soon as the camera is turned off.

and i don't want that to come here. not on CC.

in my opinion making a map about iraq is good for marketing purposes. if mibi makes it it will probably be a success since every american here will want to play it and feel like he's killing the evil iraqi.

mibi please there are hundreds of wars pick another one. an old one, a historical battle like the battle of austerlitz. i agree that probably most of the americans have never heard of this battle but then again probably this would be a good idea to teach them something.

and with this post i finish my incursion in this thread. i will not bother you with stupid posts about the things that happen in iraq.

if it's decided to go ahead then ok. i guess i'll simply not play it.
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Postby unriggable on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:15 pm

WOW that is confusing. I thought the cities were confusing enough but then I saw the whole party thing on the right. You really need to tone it down - too ambitious a project.

Good idea though.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:45 pm

DiM wrote:
d.gishman wrote:
DiM wrote:the things i've heard are worthy of an auschwitz comparison believe me.
i see no difference between 2 nazi soldiers that rape and then beat to death a jewish woman and 2 american soldiers that do the same thing to an iraqi woman.

yes in pearl harbor innocents died but i didn't see the japanese suicide bombers getting off the plane getting dunk beating the crap out of a woman raping her killing her then pissing on her corpse.


Please do not compare the Iraq War to Auschwitz-Birkenau: doesn't matter how much you hate Bush and/or America, there is no way that the Iraq War equates to a systematic genocide of an entire ethnic group. In fact, most of the atrocities were committed by the insurgents not the Americans. There were isolated cases of course, but they do not reflect the U.S Army in general.

Also, the Japanese were much worse... the Rape of Nanking/Nanjing, comfort women, lack of respect for Geneva conventions, target practice, biological testing on Chinese/Korean civilians, treatment of Australians in pow camps, oppression of conquered civilians make the japanese much worse than what the americans ever did. We have a map about pearl harbor, why can't we have a map about the iraq war? The worst part about the whole Japanese crimes against humanity is that most of them still deny it.


you see, the problem here is that in the pearl harbor map we have just that, the battle of pearl harbor. nothing else about what the japanese did or didn't. whilst here we have a map about what the americans do.

notice i said japanese did and americans do.

that's another problem i see. because the ww1+2 are something in the past they can be talked about much more easily. at most we have grand fathers that fought in those wars. but in this war we could have brothers cousins or in some cases even kids.

it's easier to talk about a grief from the past than about one from the present.

as mibi said a lot of money and media has been invested in this war and because of this i'm sick and tired of seeing on the tv reading in the newspapers or hearing on the radio that the brave amarican army went there to bring peace and destroy the evil. i'm sick and tired because everytime i see an american soldier giving an interview about how they struggle to bring peace i immediatelly imagine that soldier killing a civilian for fun as soon as the camera is turned off.

and i don't want that to come here. not on CC.

in my opinion making a map about iraq is good for marketing purposes. if mibi makes it it will probably be a success since every american here will want to play it and feel like he's killing the evil iraqi.

mibi please there are hundreds of wars pick another one. an old one, a historical battle like the battle of austerlitz. i agree that probably most of the americans have never heard of this battle but then again probably this would be a good idea to teach them something.

and with this post i finish my incursion in this thread. i will not bother you with stupid posts about the things that happen in iraq.

if it's decided to go ahead then ok. i guess i'll simply not play it.


DiM, I'm not sure what goes on in Romania but the majority of Americans are against the war and against Bush. his approval ratings are in the can. Media coverage of Iraq is largely on what a disaster it is and when to pull out (unless its FOXNEWS). Your comment "every american here will want to play it and feel like he's killing the evil iraqi." just goes to show your ignorance of the subject matter. I am gald you have decided to stay out of this thread.
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Postby mibi on Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:45 pm

unriggable wrote:WOW that is confusing. I thought the cities were confusing enough but then I saw the whole party thing on the right. You really need to tone it down - too ambitious a project.

Good idea though.


yeah its confusing as hell right now. The next updte should clarify it a bit more.
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