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MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby Yynatago on Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:51 am

Looking good!
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby iancanton on Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:14 pm

one-way is currently missing its hyphen in some places.

green-1 one-way attacks both display-1s, all reds, all yellows, all whites and all other greens.
all greens one-way attack UNITY.
UNITY one-way attacks both display-1s and nothing else.

can u think of any reason for a player to attack the n4 neutrals on UNITY?

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:04 pm

iancanton wrote:one-way is currently missing its hyphen in some places.

green-1 one-way attacks both display-1s, all reds, all yellows, all whites and all other greens.
all greens one-way attack UNITY.
UNITY one-way attacks both display-1s and nothing else.

can u think of any reason for a player to attack the n4 neutrals on UNITY?

ian. :)


Yes, we will update the map for the missing hyphens.

green-1 one-way attacks both display-1s, all reds, all yellows, all whites and all other greens. Yes
all greens one-way attack UNITY. Yes
UNITY one-way attacks both display-1s and nothing else. Yes

can u think of any reason for a player to attack the n4 neutrals on UNITY?

UNITY is a doorway to two very valuable +3 display territories. UNITY starts at 4 and auto decays -1, -2 per turn. Being valuable and inexpensive it will be taken quickly.

Note: The starting neutral count of the white buttons is determined by the number of display territories they can attack x2.

If anyone is courious 1 is UNITY in math. So it attacks the 1s.

My replies are in bold,

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby iancanton on Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:28 am

HitRed wrote:UNITY is a doorway to two very valuable +3 display territories. UNITY starts at 4 and auto decays -1, -2 per turn. Being valuable and inexpensive it will be taken quickly.

iancanton wrote:green-1 one-way attacks both display-1s, all reds, all yellows, all whites and all other greens.


there are two doorways, UNITY and green-1, that can attack the display-1s.
from the initial position, u must kill 3 neutral troops to reach a display-1 via green-1.
from the initial position, u must kill 7 neutral troops (reducing to 4 neutral troops in round 3 or 4) to reach a display-1 via UNITY.

what incentive is there to use UNITY instead of green-1, considering that the forces u leave on UNITY will decay by 1 or 2 troops each round?

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:16 pm

iancanton wrote:
HitRed wrote:UNITY is a doorway to two very valuable +3 display territories. UNITY starts at 4 and auto decays -1, -2 per turn. Being valuable and inexpensive it will be taken quickly.

iancanton wrote:green-1 one-way attacks both display-1s, all reds, all yellows, all whites and all other greens.


there are two doorways, UNITY and green-1, that can attack the display-1s.

Actually, there are more. green-1, ODD, UNITY, ALT-L and "=" all can attack the 1s in the display. This is explained in the chart to the right of the calculator and explained more in the game summery. The 1s can also be bombarded by ON/AC.

from the initial position, u must kill 3 neutral troops to reach a display-1 via green-1. Yes

from the initial position, u must kill 7 neutral troops (reducing to 4 neutral troops in round 3 or 4) to reach a display-1 via UNITY. Yes

what incentive is there to use UNITY instead of green-1, considering that the forces u leave on UNITY will decay by 1 or 2 troops each round?

ian. :)


In the first few turns not much. Since green-1 is a direct assault into 2 display terr. without any decay it is highly likely it will be stacked with troops by its owner. If the stack is too powerful the other players will look for easier less costly alternatives to capture or bust bonus. Their choices are (UNITY, ODD, ALT-R, "=", or ON/AC) to achieve this goal.

Are you thinking the green-1 and green-5 (which both attack 2 display terr.) be worth more? Maybe 5? If so, then the green buttons that just attack one display button could be worth 4. The remaining green buttons (which are bonus only) just 3. I like that idea. :) Seems balanced and I want players to move around.

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby iancanton on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:01 pm

worth a try, or even n4, n3 and n2 starting neutrals respectively, to reduce the initial stacking period.

if u intend the yellows, reds and whites to decay, then amend random -1, -2 to random decay -1, -2, otherwise it means that player-deployable troops are reduced by 1 or 2.

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:26 pm

iancanton wrote:worth a try, or even n4, n3 and n2 starting neutrals respectively, to reduce the initial stacking period.

Ok, we will update the map.

00, 0, 7, 8, +,-,x,/ all start neutral 2
2,3,4,6,9 all start neutral 3
1 and 5 start neutral 4


if u intend the yellows, reds and whites to decay, then amend random -1, -2 to random decay -1, -2, otherwise it means that player-deployable troops are reduced by 1 or 2.

I Ok, will change to random decay HitRed

ian. :)
Last edited by HitRed on Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:10 pm

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Pi 1.6 art

Modified neutral values in the green buttons.
Added line explaining > means attack(s)
Corrected one way to one-way
Added bullet points
Moved ON/AC bombards down two lines
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby iancanton on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:15 pm

on one line, u have

    E.g. 3 > 3,1

while immediately below it, u have

    EVEN > 4,2,6

so that the meaning of the commas becomes unclear.

u must use something else other than a comma between the 3 and the 1 to reduce confusion: a dot, perhaps, like the one after the 6?

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:10 pm

iancanton wrote:on one line, u have

    E.g. 3 > 3,1

while immediately below it, u have

    EVEN > 4,2,6

so that the meaning of the commas becomes unclear.

u must use something else other than a comma between the 3 and the 1 to reduce confusion: a dot, perhaps, like the one after the 6?

ian. :)


Yes, we will include it in the next round of changes.

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:02 pm

"Pi School should be filed under 'Math' or maybe 'Educational' (assuming...)." Thorthoth



Ha, love it!

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby DJENRE on Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:01 am

HitRed wrote:"Pi School should be filed under 'Math' or maybe 'Educational' (assuming...)." Thorthoth

Ha, love it!

HitRed


lol but it won't happen! in the list we're doing... Except if you create like 10 more 'educationnal' map. :lol:
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:22 pm

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Pi.V1.7 art

Moved ">" means "attack(s)" up a line to make it more global.
Added bullets to the E.g. line to help players distinguish between the different examples.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby iancanton on Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:53 pm

a couple of niggles: E.g. doesn't look quite right with a capital E, while 1's currently has a surplus apostrophe that indicates possession.

do we have the n2 and n3 neutrals the wrong way round?

3, 4, 6, 9 have n3, but u have to go thru another n3, making n6, for a bonus worth +3, which is +0.5 troops per neutral.

1 and 5 have n4, but u have to go thru another n6, making n10, for a bonus worth +6, which is +0.6 troops per neutral.

the easiest bonuses are the +, -, x, ÷ auto-deploys of +1 or +2, which have n2 and are worth average +1.5, which is +0.75 troops per neutral.

do the easiest bonuses currently give the most troops per neutral?

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:54 pm

iancanton wrote:a couple of niggles: E.g. doesn't look quite right with a capital E, while 1's currently has a surplus apostrophe that indicates possession.

do we have the n2 and n3 neutrals the wrong way round?

3, 4, 6, 9 have n3, but u have to go thru another n3, making n6, for a bonus worth +3, which is +0.5 troops per neutral.

1 and 5 have n4, but u have to go thru another n6, making n10, for a bonus worth +6, which is +0.6 troops per neutral.

the easiest bonuses are the +, -, x, ÷ auto-deploys of +1 or +2, which have n2 and are worth average +1.5, which is +0.75 troops per neutral.

do the easiest bonuses currently give the most troops per neutral?

ian. :)


Sure, we will make the changes. I am very open to changing the neutrals to what you think is best. :)

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:45 am

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Pi.V1.8 art

Corrected E.g. to e.g.
Corrected 1's to 1s
Corrected 00, 0, 7, 8, +, -, x, / to starting n2.
Corrected 2, 3, 4, 6, 9 to starting n3.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby DJENRE on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:59 am

A few questions about the map :
Why capturing all Pi is not a winning condition?
Also the 1's are the most difficult to get I presume (more than 5 mostly because there is the Unity).Did you think about cancelling Unity?
For the rest, everything seems really fair, and I'm waiting forward to see that map playable.
Really good work.

Other question for me :
Also it's possible (in terms of xml) to have a random decay, a random autodep???
Is it also possible to see a random reset neutral? (not on your map but I'm thinking about another one).
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:14 pm

DJENRE wrote:A few questions about the map :
Why capturing all Pi is not a winning condition? I thought capturing Pi and holding it for a turn to win was self-evident. "Can you capture Pi?" Then above the display the Pi symbol in black the same color as the display numbers. I will confer with the artist and make a decision.

Also the 1's are the most difficult to get I presume (more than 5 mostly because there is the Unity).Did you think about cancelling Unity? As far as I can tell my green and white button count is five for all the numbers except "." which is only 3. Removing Unity would remove balance. Please double check it.

For the rest, everything seems really fair, and I'm waiting forward to see that map playable.
Really good work.

Other question for me :
Also it's possible (in terms of xml) to have a random decay, a random autodep???Is it also possible to see a random reset neutral? (not on your map but I'm thinking about another one).

Full discloser, this is my first XML and so far mostly reading and looking at beta code on other maps. Random decay YES. Random auto deploy YES. Random reset neutral, unknown. Look up tranformations in the XML Guide. Interesting to read!

thanks HitRed
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby DJENRE on Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:34 am

HitRed wrote:
DJENRE wrote:Why capturing all Pi is not a winning condition? I thought capturing Pi and holding it for a turn to win was self-evident. "Can you capture Pi?" Then above the display the Pi symbol in black the same color as the display numbers. I will confer with the artist and make a decision.

:lol: Actually I thought the same, it's written so it should be a win condition. But even written I wasn't sure 100 % it was a rule. I presume most of the players will learn about it after only one game.
Second option you write it down properly (tiny).

HitRed wrote:
DJENRE wrote:Also the 1's are the most difficult to get I presume (more than 5 mostly because there is the Unity).Did you think about cancelling Unity? As far as I can tell my green and white button count is five for all the numbers except "." which is only 3. Removing Unity would remove balance. Please double check it.


Ok, First of all, please know that I'm aware of your problem of 2 "1s" and 2 "5s" into your PI number. Can be unbalanced because of those pair numbers.
I also see that you put 2 neutral for each Pi number reachable by a button.
I see 4 groups of buttons :
1/ ON / = / can attack all so it's not that important at the moment.
2/ ALT L /ALT R attach each 6 so it's fair enough.
3/ EVEN (n6) and ODD (n12) because Odd can attack more territs and also can attack both 1s and 5s (huge advantage actually).
4/ PRIME / COMP / UNITY but the problem here is neutral go from 4 to 8. Pretty unbalanced.

Actually, once on green button, I need to kill only 9 neutrals to get 2 "1s" ok (bonus +6)
But I need 13 for the "5s" (bonus+6) and at least 11 for the any other Pi number (and only one bonus +3)
Also the "." need to pass throught 10+3 neutrals!! Pretty unfair.
If I have to play, I gonna head the 1s for sure!!! It's the easier solution.
But it's unbalanced.

What I would do if it was mine :
1/ and 2/ don't change it.
3/ keep it like that also but, to avoid the problem with your 5s and 1s into pi number, you should keep one of each with neutral 3 and the other with neutral 5 (or 6).
So the problem with your unbalanced play into pi number is fine. You know I mean?
4/ Here it's unbalanced like I said, you could do it more balanced and in the mean time give more access to "."
COMP and UNITY can now reach "." then all Pi Number can be reachable by 5 buttons like you said. COMP is now N8, PRIME remain N8 and UNITY become N6, more balanced.
I know COMP and UNITY are not ".", but it's the only solution I found to make it more balanced!



ALSO a little thing to change is ALT R (wrong Pi order). Actually it's 5 2 5 4 . and it should be . 4 5 2 5 You know I mean?

Also just a little thing about > mean attacks. I would have put ">>" or ">>>" or "=>" instead only ">" wich is a math sign.
Maybe some players will think it's also to be found on the board.

I hope it will help you!
DJ 8-)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby HitRed on Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:16 pm

We might put a very small "Hold Pi for a turn and win" in the bottom left corner. Again, we'll talk it over.

To determine the White Buttons value take the number of terr. it can attack X 2. Simple. The more value the more it's worth.
Also, all the White Buttons random -1, -2 per round. So n4 Unity will quickly be n3 or n2 the first round. Same with the others. PRIME by round 3 will be between n2 and n5. If attacked it would open faster. If all 8 players attack the first round then the first turn! :lol: By the time a player can take two Pi spots AND BLOCK the green button the next White Button will be open or cards will be played. I want people to do what your doing. :) There are really endless GOOD ANSWERS. :D Should I go for the display? Should I go for easy random bonus 00, 0, 7, 8...? Should I not attack and stack? Should I follow DJENER and attack the 1s? They are all good strategies.

ALT-R, ALTERNATING NUMBERS FROM THE RIGHT, reads from the right. So 5, 2, 5, 4, "." is correct.

The use of ">" is pre-existing to my time on CC. The previous map maker used it without any explanation. Inferring, it was common knowledge at least in the Map Foundry. We have posted an explanation.

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby LiveLoveTeach on Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:58 pm

Hey HR, all of your images are broken - just the word "Image" where they used to be.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School (Capture Pi)

Postby EBConquer on Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:25 am

LiveLoveTeach wrote:Hey HR, all of your images are broken - just the word "Image" where they used to be.


One of my sub-domains has been infected w/ malware and suspended my hosting account. Things will be working normally tomorrow (fingers crossed) after a few hoops.
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