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HOLYWARS 1250

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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:59 am

It really looks like these were wars of conquest, C, rather than holy wars necessarily. Why not re-title the thing, make it not about religion, but rather about kingdoms and empires?

Seems like an easy fix for the mistake.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby riskllama on Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:36 pm

how is calling something what it actually is/was a mistake, sym?
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:59 am

riskllama wrote:how is calling something what it actually is/was a mistake, sym?


If you don't think that these were wars of conquest, I'm certainly willing to hear you out and look at your evidence. I've learned a lot from the discussion of this map so far. I'm always up for learning more- have at it RL.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 am

The vast majority of wars and conquests at the time were in the name of religion, it was the main influence at the time.

The vast majority of crusades at the time were in the name of religion. At this point in time most powerful regional religions were heading towards Jerusalem - Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic caliphates and there is even evidence the mongols set foot in Palestine at the time.

As we have pointed out the map is based on the kingdoms/empires at he time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. A simple concept, reflective of the time.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:52 am

CHAMPOS wrote:The vast majority of wars and conquests at the time were in the name of religion, it was the main influence at the time.

The vast majority of crusades at the time were in the name of religion. At this point in time most powerful regional religions were heading towards Jerusalem - Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic caliphates and there is even evidence the mongols set foot in Palestine at the time.

As we have pointed out the map is based on the kingdoms/empires at he time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. A simple concept, reflective of the time.


I think you're over-simplifying a period of history that is far more more complex than you think. I don't want to presume here, but you might have muddled Clausewitz's idea that "War is merely the continuation of politics by other means" to be "war is merely the continuation of religion by other means.".

You're certainly right that various religions were important in the regional politics of the time, but the Mongols weren't on a holy war, and you'd have to radically restate your argument to suggest that the Hindus were Crusaders.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:14 pm

Symmetry wrote:
CHAMPOS wrote:The vast majority of wars and conquests at the time were in the name of religion, it was the main influence at the time.

The vast majority of crusades at the time were in the name of religion. At this point in time most powerful regional religions were heading towards Jerusalem - Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic caliphates and there is even evidence the mongols set foot in Palestine at the time.

As we have pointed out the map is based on the kingdoms/empires at he time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. A simple concept, reflective of the time.


I think you're over-simplifying a period of history that is far more more complex than you think. I don't want to presume here, but you might have muddled Clausewitz's idea that "War is merely the continuation of politics by other means" to be "war is merely the continuation of religion by other means.".

It's the other way around. Religion is the continuation of war by other means. Christianity was established to to to preserve the Pax Romana in the failing years of the Roman Empire. Islam was founded to justify Arab military conquest. Sikhism was founded to try to find a middle ground and end the cycle of wars between Hindus and Muslims in northern India. Etc., etc.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:22 am

Version 18 updates

- Mongol leaders categorised by their religion at the time - Tengerians
- Begwena renamed (from Zagwe)
- Key changed - removed 'religions' and changed graphic


LATEST DRAFT

[url][url=https://imgur.com/iKaVlrs]Image[/url]/url]


Map Name: HOLYWARS 1250
Mapmaker(s):CHAMPOS
Number of Territories:44 (two start neutral, being Jerusalem and Ayyubid Caliphate, leaving 42 to be allocated, all regions start with 3 troops)
Special Features:An historically accurate map, no gaps, simple gameplay....
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: Tried to be historically accurate, on the following basis: the kingdoms/empires at the time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. There were a number of kingdoms/empires/religions coming together at the same time in 1250AD:
- the Roman Catholics had taken control over mainland Europe from the last Islamic Caliphate holding in Spain,
- the Islamic Caliphates were being attacked from the east by the Tengerian Mongols and from the west by the Roman Catholic crusades,
- the northern Eastern Orthodox territories were under Tengerian Mongol control,
- the Tengerian Mongols had been halted by their leadership changes and power struggles,
- the Indian Hindus were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates and Tengerian Mongols,
- the Oriental Orthodox were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates,
- Crusades continued to Jerusalem, with the following all heading in its direction: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic Caliphates, Jews and there is also evidence the Tengerian Mongols set foot in Palestine at the time...
Who will prevail...?
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby HitRed on Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:50 pm

I still have a hard time seeing the Eastern Orthodox. Red maybe?

Also I like the idea of Russian princes being Orthodox but either way is fine.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:34 am

HitRed wrote:I still have a hard time seeing the Eastern Orthodox. Red maybe?

Also I like the idea of Russian princes being Orthodox but either way is fine.


Thanks HR

I will have a look at the EO colour and see if can be improved in next version

Russian Principalities
- Rus - it is well documented the Mongols effectively controlled these territories from the invasions before 1250ad
- Novgorod - this could probably be argued both ways. But the Mongols did significantly influence and receive tributes - effective control - source: The only major cities to escape destruction were Novgorod and Pskov. The Mongols planned to advance on Novgorod, but the principality was spared the fate of its brethren by the wise decision to preemptively surrender.[9]
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:49 am

Dukasaur wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
CHAMPOS wrote:The vast majority of wars and conquests at the time were in the name of religion, it was the main influence at the time.

The vast majority of crusades at the time were in the name of religion. At this point in time most powerful regional religions were heading towards Jerusalem - Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic caliphates and there is even evidence the mongols set foot in Palestine at the time.

As we have pointed out the map is based on the kingdoms/empires at he time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. A simple concept, reflective of the time.


I think you're over-simplifying a period of history that is far more more complex than you think. I don't want to presume here, but you might have muddled Clausewitz's idea that "War is merely the continuation of politics by other means" to be "war is merely the continuation of religion by other means.".

It's the other way around. Religion is the continuation of war by other means. Christianity was established to to to preserve the Pax Romana in the failing years of the Roman Empire. Islam was founded to justify Arab military conquest. Sikhism was founded to try to find a middle ground and end the cycle of wars between Hindus and Muslims in northern India. Etc., etc.


I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on that.

I'm a cynical atheist, but even I find that definition objectionable.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:01 am

Champos- you're still calling the Mongolian forces "hordes" in several territories, and of course using the term "Holy War" in the map description.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:40 pm

Symmetry wrote:Champos- you're still calling the Mongolian forces "hordes" in several territories.


That is beacause they were known as hordes, the ones stated were there at the time.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:14 pm

CHAMPOS wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Champos- you're still calling the Mongolian forces "hordes" in several territories.


That is beacause they were known as hordes, the ones stated were there at the time.


Ah, I see, my sentence wasn't well put together. You're still a bit vague on how the "hordes" are pursuing a "holy war".
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby HitRed on Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:09 pm

Let's beat this to death :D


Expect to show some flexibility and be prepared to move away from complete geographical accuracy or historical authenticity.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:19 am

HitRed wrote:Let's beat this to death :D


Expect to show some flexibility and be prepared to move away from complete geographical accuracy or historical authenticity.


I agree, let's make this a map that's less about religions and "Holy Wars" against other religions and more about the kind of forces, kingdoms, empires, and hordes that are displayed.

I don't think it's a huge step to change the title a little so that it works for all members.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:21 am

[/quote]

I agree, let's make this a map that's less about religions and "Holy Wars" against other religions and more about the kind of forces, kingdoms, empires, and hordes that are displayed.

I don't think it's a huge step to change the title a little so that it works for all members.[/quote]


Historical and geographic accuracy are important for this map. HOLYWARS1250AD as a title remains, overall a fair description of the time.

You have given me an idea though, what about HOLYWARS 2250AD?, set on a post global warming world map, after world war 3, societies have rebased, where religion is again used as a driver for conquest and crusade...then we would need one more map for a trilogy... obviously want to get this one finished first!
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:44 am

CHAMPOS wrote:


I agree, let's make this a map that's less about religions and "Holy Wars" against other religions and more about the kind of forces, kingdoms, empires, and hordes that are displayed.

I don't think it's a huge step to change the title a little so that it works for all members.[/quote]


Historical and geographic accuracy are important for this map. HOLYWARS1250AD as a title remains, overall a fair description of the time.

You have given me an idea though, what about HOLYWARS 2250AD?, set on a post global warming world map, after world war 3, societies have rebased, where religion is again used as a driver for conquest and crusade...then we would need one more map for a trilogy... obviously want to get this one finished first![/quote]

I don't know, you seem very driven by the idea of religion as a point of war. It seemed a little arbitrary to me when you first proposed the map, and needlessly divisive to current players.

I think you might be more hung up on the idea of holy wars than on people enjoying the map.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:21 am

I agree. Let’s get back the map’s playability...

I think we will need to agree to disagree on the influence of religion in crusades and conflicts in the 13th century
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby riskllama on Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:30 pm

lol, sym - still hard at it, i see... :roll:
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:11 pm

CHAMPOS wrote:I agree. Let’s get back the map’s playability...

I think we will need to agree to disagree on the influence of religion in crusades and conflicts in the 13th century


Perhaps, I'm still going to be opposed to the idea of a Holy Wars map on principle, as it's a very easy fix to simply make it more about the empires and kingdoms involved. It seems unnecessarily controversial on the site in the modern day.

That said, I have no further points to make, and this ain't OT, so I hope that you'll use the input you've gained to help improve the map.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:27 am

LATEST UPDATE:
- COLOUR CHANGE MENTIONED BY HITRED
- COUPLE OF MINOR NAME CHANGES

Map Name: HOLYWARS 1250
Mapmaker(s):CHAMPOS
Number of Territories:44 (two start neutral, being Jerusalem and Ayyubid Caliphate, leaving 42 to be allocated, all regions start with 3 troops)
Special Features:An historically accurate map, no gaps, simple gameplay....
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: Tried to be historically accurate, on the following basis: the kingdoms/empires at the time (with the areas they ruled/controlled) and then categorised by the rulers religion. There were a number of kingdoms/empires/religions coming together at the same time in 1250AD:
- the Roman Catholics had taken control over mainland Europe from the last Islamic Caliphate holding in Spain,
- the Islamic Caliphates were being attacked from the east by the Tengerian Mongols and from the west by the Roman Catholic crusades,
- the northern Eastern Orthodox territories were under Tengerian Mongol control,
- the Tengerian Mongols had been halted by their leadership changes and power struggles,
- the Indian Hindus were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates and Tengerian Mongols,
- the Oriental Orthodox were under attack from the Islamic Caliphates,
- Crusades continued to Jerusalem, with the following all heading in its direction: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic Caliphates, Jews and there is also evidence the Tengerian Mongols set foot in Palestine at the time...
Who will prevail...?

LATEST DRAFT

[url][url=https://imgur.com/qHp6Ekv]Image[/url]/url]
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:28 am

ANY COMMENTS ON THE LATEST DRAFT, KEEN TO GET TO THE NEXT STAGE...
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Vlasov on Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:03 am

Hi CHAMPOS:

Great map! It's interesting historically and it looks different and challenging. When will it be available as a beta map?

Suggestions:
1) Maybe there could be a sea connection between Europe and North Africa. Sicily is pretty close to Africa (modern Tunisia).
2) Maybe there could be another sea connection at the Strait of Hormuz.

Those changes would affect only the top three regions (Islamic/Mongol/Roman) and it would make their huge bonuses (8 each) more reasonable, since they would be harder to defend.

Historically speaking, I don't know how difficult it was to invade at those locations. Were they any worse than Gibraltar, or southwest Arabia to Somalia?

P.S. My only other suggestion is about the font in the title "HOLYWARS1250AD". Could you use a font that looks more "medieval" ? Here are some examples: http://www.fontspace.com/category/medieval
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:26 am

Historically speaking, (I promised to leave off map criticism, everyone knows my objections) England would be tough tough to conquer. The last really successful invasion of England was in 1066, by William I (aka William the Conqueror), and that was partly because the previous king, Harold had just fought off another invasion attempt.

Since then, there's been a few kind of invasions, but they've been more like raids, at least concerning the mainland.
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Re: HOLYWARS 1250

Postby CHAMPOS on Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:28 am

Symmetry wrote:Historically speaking, (I promised to leave off map criticism, everyone knows my objections) England would be tough tough to conquer. The last really successful invasion of England was in 1066, by William I (aka William the Conqueror), and that was partly because the previous king, Harold had just fought off another invasion attempt.

Since then, there's been a few kind of invasions, but they've been more like raids, at least concerning the mainland.



I would agree that England would be difficult to conquer, but not for the want of trying at the time. It is however feasible that England could have been conquered at the time.
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