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Scenarios and gameplay

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Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:29 am

Hello

This thread is to try fix some of the CC unbalances for those who prefer balance.
I understand that there are players who want and prefer a lot of luck. CC is already a good platform for that.

It seems there is a small core of active players/volunteers/workers.
This at least is encouraging.

Regards creating fixes to make some maps more balanced I have quite a few ideas at several levels.
By ideas I mean practiced ones that I would like to bring to a bigger more competitive platform.

I understand the plethora of issues that we have at CC have regards making any changes having been here for 10 years.

However I see a glimmer of hope in the Scenario planner. I can implement a few of these ideas there if I can work on it in a meaningful way.

1) Can I create games that regular players on the main site can play in and not just bots?
Which by the way are very poor. I have played with far better ones on other sites. Where do our bots originate?
Regards bots, let’s keep in mind that the top chess rankings are held by bots. We can do better with our basic bots.

2) Can I make troop number changes to any CC map?

3) can I use a scenario for a tournament?

If the answer is yes to any please explain in detail (I know it is a ball ache) how it is done for me.
I have tried but the best I got is a bot game which are no test.
For example if a game is created for human players where does it get queued and how do you see which players have joined?

Fingers crossed.
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby iancanton on Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:10 pm

after u develop a scenario on the beta site where several games have been played by several players with no significant issues, it can be promoted to the main site.

our bots are created by bigWham.

when making a scenario, u can change the starting troop numbers for most maps. those that are unavailable tend to be the ones with large numbers of starting regions.

u can try to use a scenario for a tournament on the beta site to see whether it works. u know how to create a tournament better than i do.

games are joined on the Scenario tab of the Start Games page. u cannot see which players have joined.

ian. :)
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:31 am

Nucker wrote:...
Which by the way are very poor. I have played with far better ones on other sites. Where do our bots originate?
Regards bots, let’s keep in mind that the top chess rankings are held by bots. We can do better with our basic bots.

Keep in mind that those chess programs are written by some of the world's best AI programmers -- guys at IBM and MIT who have post-graduate degrees in artificial intelligence and computer engineering. Conquer Club is run by one part-time, self-taught programmer.

It's like you're asking why your 10-year old daughter doesn't play soccer as well as Diego Maradona.



Nucker wrote:3) can I use a scenario for a tournament?

If the answer is yes to any please explain in detail (I know it is a ball ache) how it is done for me.

Yes, it IS possible to use scenarios for a tournament, but it is a little tricky.

In an ordinary tournament, you create the games and invite the players to join them. There are also older tournaments where the organizer created the games, emailed out the password, and trusted the players to join the games themselves. That's very rarely seen nowadays, but it is possible.

With scenarios, it isn't possible to invite players. The scenario queue engine is completely automated. Nobody can see who is in the queue. Players click on the scenario, ask to join, and when there are enough players in the queue, it will create a game and put them in.

Because you can't control what time your players will join the queue, you therefore can't control which players will end up in which game together. The rules you write for the tournament, therefore, have to be open-ended enough to cover all possibilities. You have to write a scoring system that gives credit for games won (or kills made, or whatever) regardless of who is in which game. Also, players might click multiple times, so you have to allow them to join multiple games. Write scoring rules to cover this (what happens if A is in more games than B? Do you go by Games Won Percentage? Or do you only count the first game and ignore additional games joined after? The choice is yours, but you need to foresee the possibilities and write rules that cover them.)

I would definitely look forward to something like this! We have done Challenges based on scenarios, and some of them were lots of fun. Would be cool to see a tournament based on them. Good luck!
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:16 am

Thank you Ian and Dukasaur.

I have created a scenario in the Beta.
I did put in some invites via the in scenario method.
They seem to appear as requests?
How do I see/know who is on the Beta site to invite them?
How do these players know they have been invited?


Dukasaur, I assume this bot creator is Big Wham. I understand the issues but it is not hard to draw basic algorithms to create better bits that are challenging.
Reaper is a great example of a good risk bot.

Fingers crossed for tournament. But still far away from that in terms of testing ect....
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby iancanton on Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:49 pm

Nucker wrote:I have created a scenario in the Beta.

if u keep its name a secret, then it's likely that no-one will test it. if u do tell us its name, but fail to click the SUBMIT button after editing, then we still probably won't test it, as the Start Games page won't show it.

Nucker wrote:I did put in some invites via the in scenario method.
They seem to appear as requests?

it sounds as if things are working correctly.

Nucker wrote:How do I see/know who is on the Beta site to invite them?

use the beta site's game finder.

Nucker wrote:How do these players know they have been invited?

those players whose inboxes are overflowing with messages won't know. try using the beta global chat to ask players to join. alternatively, u can also post on the live site walls of beta testers.

ian. :)
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:18 am

Thanks Ian

As I can't figure out the quote method, please excuse my long hand.

On the Edit page:
Name - test (I tried to edit it after hitting submit but this never appeared anywhere)
Description - Does this appear on the final product for public display?
Tags - please explain the purpose of this.
Status - as above.

On the right: (the menu on the right has dissapearing issues on mobile/Android)
Left Click: Inc by
Rotate Click: Rotate Color - please explain this. I don't have mouse options.
The numbers 10 to - 10 as well please.

Submit - I have hit this a lot to refresh the work I am busy with. Does a copy of each snapshot get saved somewhere? I assume not until all the regions are populated.
I like the submit button, however I am not sure of its true purpose.

TEST: I have hit this before and ended up with a bot game. Is this the purpose?
DISPLAY: Been wary of this one. Please enlighten.
FIND GAMES: ?
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:53 am

Continued....

On the Edit Page:
Very top left. I have a drop down menu showing me two options.
test - the one from which I sent requests.
Beat the Dice - the edited name I spoke of in part 1.
I don't see these being offered on the scenario page. They both say (draft).

SWITCH: too fearful to hit this. What is its purpose please?

Add New: please explain.

Left Regions by alphabet (be a lot easier if it was by bonus or adjacent regions)
The meat and potatoes of the whole thing. What type of region can't be changed?This has been implied in some of the observations I have seen on which maps can be modified?

Under the map: Classic is the default.
Map menu: Generally I start here, before Name or Submit. I choose the map and the settings I want then hit submit to get the relevant regions and map.
I feel this part makes the most sense to me. Which does not mean I have understood it.
Last edited by Nucker on Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:13 am

Continued....

As the name is no longer a secret, how does a player who is given the name (via PM, Wall, In Game message or other) know where to find the game to join it?
How does the scenario creator know when the game name is no longer a secret?

If I understand your answer Ian, a game request that I send from the scenario option goes to the inbox of that player?
If so, which inbox? Beta or Main server?

In sumarry:

I look forward to the reply on the practical issues so I can use the tool with confidance

I want to get an actual game going with actual players.
I need the How To wiki

Thank you
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby iancanton on Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:57 pm

Nucker wrote:Description - Does this appear on the final product for public display?

yes.

Nucker wrote:Tags - please explain the purpose of this.

it's a formatted text field that is mostly left empty.

Nucker wrote:Status - as above.

this shows the stage of development or play. submitted status enables other players to start games.

Nucker wrote:Left Click: Inc by
Rotate Click: Rotate Color - please explain this. I don't have mouse options.
The numbers 10 to - 10 as well please.

left-clicking a mouse on a troop count increases the number by a certain amount, which can be set as 10, 5, 1, -1, -5 or -10; troop counts can be input manually by typing instead. right-clicking a mouse on a troop count is supposed to change the colour of the troops from neutral to red to green to blue to yellow to an appropriate number of colours before rotating back to neutral; colours can be selected manually by drop-down instead.

Nucker wrote:Submit - I have hit this a lot to refresh the work I am busy with. Does a copy of each snapshot get saved somewhere? I assume not until all the regions are populated.
I like the submit button, however I am not sure of its true purpose.

it saves the last change made.

Nucker wrote:TEST: I have hit this before and ended up with a bot game. Is this the purpose?

yes.

Nucker wrote:DISPLAY: Been wary of this one. Please enlighten.

this shows the appearance of the scenario without the editing tools.

Nucker wrote:FIND GAMES: ?

this displays a list of all games for that scenario.

ian. :)
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:14 am

Thanks Ian,

Unfortunately you have not actually given me enough to get a game going with real players. This is critical to being considered a success.

I am going to keep trying for a short time more to help you help me.
If we get to that stage I will do a summary so others players can also set up scenarios in an easy to understand and navigate format.

First let’s get the prime objective understood.
I want to get an actual game going with actual players.
It is critical you understand this and that all effort already wasted is for nought if this does not happen.
And I have used a LOT of my personal time already. I don’t mind but I need you to be mindful of this.

So let’s begin at the end.

Once I have created a game, where do I find it? I can’t find the games I have already created and if I can’t find it then nobody else can. No smart remarks about the name being secret please. It is irritating when I need to fight against shitty attitudes as well.

Once I can find the created game on a regular basis I can direct others to it.

Next; where to the invites sent from the scenario go? To the beta inbox or the main server one?
I will send invites personally to players but it will be nice to know the outcome of sending invites from the platform.

Regards the status. Do I put in SUBMITTED myself or does this get done at an admin level?
If so how do I know that the game is live in order to invite others?

Please can we move forward with this Ian. It has been a few weeks now....

I ask you to take some time contemplating what it is I have asked so you can apply your mind to answering it.

Thank you
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby iancanton on Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:05 pm

Nucker wrote:On the Edit Page:
Very top left. I have a drop down menu showing me two options.
test - the one from which I sent requests.
Beat the Dice - the edited name I spoke of in part 1.
I don't see these being offered on the scenario page. They both say (draft).

draft scenarios do not appear. submitted scenarios do.

Nucker wrote:SWITCH: too fearful to hit this. What is its purpose please?

this swaps the scenario from the one displayed to the one showing in the dropdown box.

Nucker wrote:Add New: please explain.

this creates a new scenario for editing.

Nucker wrote:Left Regions by alphabet (be a lot easier if it was by bonus or adjacent regions)
The meat and potatoes of the whole thing. What type of region can't be changed?This has been implied in some of the observations I have seen on which maps can be modified?

all regions can have their troop colour and count changed.

Nucker wrote:As the name is no longer a secret, how does a player who is given the name (via PM, Wall, In Game message or other) know where to find the game to join it?

on the Scenario tab of the Start Games page.

Nucker wrote:How does the scenario creator know when the game name is no longer a secret?

submitted status means that the scenario is visible to other players.

Nucker wrote:If I understand your answer Ian, a game request that I send from the scenario option goes to the inbox of that player?
If so, which inbox? Beta or Main server?

beta.

Nucker wrote:Once I have created a game, where do I find it?

on the Scenario tab of the Start Games page.

Nucker wrote:Do I put in SUBMITTED myself or does this get done at an admin level?

u do it urself.

Nucker wrote:If so how do I know that the game is live in order to invite others?

if it appears on the Scenario tab of the Start Games page, then players can join.

to encourage players to join, let them know about the scenario's existence on beta global chat. a good method to invite someone is to post

Code: Select all
https://beta.conquerclub.com/player.php?mode=scenario&scenario_id=xyz


on the wall of beta testers u want to invite, where xyz is the scenario id number that's displayed on the editing page.

u cannot control which players join which game if more players join than there are available places in that scenario, as this is determined by join order.

to join a scenario, a player must click Start.

ian. :)
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Hooch on Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:13 am

Dukasaur wrote:
Nucker wrote:...

It's like you're asking why your 10-year old daughter doesn't play soccer as well as Diego Maradona.

Not enough Nose Candy.
The bots need more Nose Candy
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:44 am

Thanks Ian

Fingers crossed for that I am able to understand this and overcome my fustration. To get that game going.
:)
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:06 am

I still don’t have a game to find or invite players to, even though I have created several versions of the map...

Does a copy of the created map get stored somewhere it can be used again to start further games on it instead of having o spend several hours recreating it?

What is the purpose of the ID that is created when the game is submitted?
How does one find it?
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby iancanton on Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:36 pm

Nucker wrote:Does a copy of the created map get stored somewhere it can be used again to start further games on it instead of having o spend several hours recreating it?

yes.

Nucker wrote:What is the purpose of the ID that is created when the game is submitted?

it's an index record that identifies a scenario uniquely, even if the name is changed to something else.

Nucker wrote:How does one find it?

admin menu, scenarios, edit (select ur chosen scenario from the dropdown), click SWITCH and it ought to be just to the left of "Author Nucker".

ian. :)
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:10 am

Thanks for being patient Ian

Slowly progress is made.

Once a scenario is full, ie played, does the scenario remain on the list to be played again by the next full set of players?

Do the created scenario games ever get deleted?

I notice that when I click Start I go to a secondary page with my waiting scenario games. I see that the games I created are listed 3 times each. Why is this?
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby Nucker on Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:48 am

Making changes to a scenario already created

How do I change a scenario I have created,
Eg I want to change the rounds from 30 to 100 and delete the old scenario.

Can we get the newly created scenarios and often played ones to the top of the list?

Maybe have the bot games at the bottom?

Why do I have 3 or more scenarios of the same scenario in my waiting list?

Thank you
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby iancanton on Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:18 pm

Nucker wrote:Once a scenario is full, ie played, does the scenario remain on the list to be played again by the next full set of players?

yes.

Nucker wrote:Do the created scenario games ever get deleted?

games played on the beta site are deleted when the beta site is refreshed. the scenario itself is not deleted.

Nucker wrote:I notice that when I click Start I go to a secondary page with my waiting scenario games. I see that the games I created are listed 3 times each. Why is this?

u've joined each scenario three times.

Nucker wrote:How do I change a scenario I have created,
Eg I want to change the rounds from 30 to 100 and delete the old scenario.

on the edit page, once u've selected ur chosen scenario from the dropdown (as described above), click SWITCH, make ur desired changes, then click SUBMIT.

Nucker wrote:Can we get the newly created scenarios and often played ones to the top of the list?

scenarios that are played more often tend to go to the top of the list.

ian. :)
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby 300spartans on Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:56 pm

Can I join the map foundry team? I'm having difficulty navigating the forums and finding where I should post but I want to make some scenarios and I have a couple of good ideas for new maps as well.
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Re: Scenarios and gameplay

Postby iancanton on Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:41 pm

300spartans, u've been added to the beta testers team now and are able to make scenarios.

if u have a map idea, then post it in the forum below, with the title of the map in the subject field.

viewforum.php?f=63

ian. :)
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