Conquer Club

For most of my time here if I have a negative comment that won't lead to anything constructive I usually just don't say anything. I made one clear exception to this in Prohibition Chicago a ways back and it almost completely destroyed my relationship with the creator.

I think a lot of people are the same way.

The question is, should we behave this way? If people have a comment that will lead to nothing constructive should they still post it? Even if it probably won't lead to any changes shouldn't the map maker be made to know that some people think something about it sucks?

The silent treatment often implies that nobody has any problems and then the map moves along in development but the reality may simply be nobody likes the map.

it all depends on the situation and the comment. i've received comments like: "this map sucks" or "this looks horrible"
such comments are bad. even if my map did suck or looked horrible, those comments did not help me to make it better.
however a negative comment can still be constructive even if it bothers the mapmaker. saying "this map sucks because of this and that and you can change it here and here" will still hurt some feelings but it will also provide some constructive feedback.

i'm the type of person that truthfully speaks his own mind. if i think a map sucks and that it looks horrible then that's just what i'll say. but i will always explain what exactly sucks and even provide suggestions on how it could be improved.
i realise such comments can be regarded as negative and many people hate me for this but i'm a firm believer that nobody should hide their feelings and even more they should never keep quiet just to avoid upsetting somebody.

Right, and there are maps I would say things like that in, but if I know they won't make any of the changes what am I really accomplishing? I'm just making noise and possibly delaying their development time slightly.

Coleman wrote:Right, and there are maps I would say things like that in, but if I know they won't make any of the changes what am I really accomplishing? I'm just making noise and possibly delaying their development time slightly.

most of the time it takes just one person to voice his concerns loud enough and then others will follow if those concerns are valid.

shortly after i came back to the foundry i made some negative comments on a map. not only was the map maker outraged at my comments but he also had a few fans that supported him and on top of all that even the foundry foreman vouched for that map. so it looked like was doing was "making noise and possibly delaying their development time slightly" but as it turned out, i wasn't the only one that thought the map looked bad and soon others came and supported a change and in the end the map got transformed into something much, much better. yeah sure the map maker probably hates me and thinks i'm a jerk. could i have been more diplomatic? probably, but i'm not sure that i would have achieved the same thing by sugarcoating and playing all nice and fuzzy.

Negative comments are ok as long as they are constructive.

When giving feedback, I feel the diplomatic approach is usually the best, although sometimes things have to be said straight out to get the message accross. Sometimes things get heated when opinions clash, but mature mapmakers know how to take a step back, calm down and come back with fresh brains... (yeah right... )

I sometimes give negative comments, but normally just ignore the map. I try not to post "this sucks". Just a waste of time really.

What this site needs is more tutorials. a whole sub forum of tutorials. so a member can direct a map maker to some link or something. I said years ago that there should be a tutorial achievement award of some sort. If somebody could get a medal or plaque for a decent tutorial, more users would spend the time to create them.

This is a basically a starter ground for cartographers. Most of the new map makers don't really know graphics programs that well, and spend more of a year trying to make a map while fumbling through the software (usually doing things the wrong/hard way). I know I did.

I'm not raising my hand for tutorials - but I think it should be considered by the staff.

RjBeals wrote:What this site needs is more tutorials. a whole sub forum of tutorials. so a member can direct a map maker to some link or something. I said years ago that there should be a tutorial achievement award of some sort. If somebody could get a medal or plaque for a decent tutorial, more users would spend the time to create them.

Good tutorials and tools should lead to general contribution medals. I feel. If they don't already.

If there was a really good gimp (or other free artwork tool) tutorial I would perhaps try to return to map making. As it is now WidowMakers and mibi have moved on and we probably have unresolvable differences anyways at this point and I feel gimil is working on projects that are more useful than what I would want to try doing (plus I know an idea I want to try wouldn't interest him at all so I haven't bothered to ask) and I wouldn't want to distract him from them.

doesn't matter that people move on. There's still a ton of people left. Just no incentive to waste so much time on a tutorial.

RjBeals wrote:doesn't matter that people move on. There's still a ton of people left. Just no incentive to waste so much time on a tutorial.

Well, it matters in the sense that these are the people I have collaborated with in the past (which I have to do because I suck at art and attempts to get better have just frustrated me) and that there is no real incentive to collaborate with me at this point.

I could do crude sketches of ideas in the ideas area and see if anyone likes one enough to pick it up. They are all attempts at using our current tools to provide entirely new gameplay styles, which is always risky. I think I'll work on one tonight or tomorrow and see what happens.

Err more on topic, which is to say something actually on topic.

Is a map in beta too late to come in and raise a fuss over graphics? Like, if I thought a map was horribly horribly dark and difficult to read without messing with the brightness on my monitor (confirmed viewing it with 3 different computers that have no brightness problems with anything else)?

Coleman wrote:... I made one clear exception to this in Prohibition Chicago a ways back and it almost completely destroyed my relationship with the creator....(

Goodness Coleman, that was so long ago, i'd forgotten about it tbh. But you weren't the only one in there at that time, as i reviewed it. There have been bigger doozies than that one since you left.

If i can put my two cents in...
I think undiplomatic negative commenting is disastrously discouraging.
It doesn't help anyone, and certainly does nothing to encourage the mapmaker towards competing the project and moving the artistry towards a more acceptable status. In some ways, some negative comments are almost like bullying in the sand-pit that 3 and 4 years old go through.

I'd much prefer to receive civil comments with feedback that leads somewhere and is encouraging.

RjBeals wrote:I'm not raising my hand for tutorials

if you're not raising your hand then i'm raising mine for you. i'd watch all day your tutorials as i'm a great fan of your work and i'm always amazed at what you come up with.

however i'm not sure tutorials are the way to go. if map makers don't know how to do something then they can use google and find thousands of tutorials. that's what i did. the trouble with having tutorials here and making reference to them whenever a map maker makes something we don;t like might lead to clones of the same map over and over again. new map makers would simply follow the tutorials and get a map done without bothering to learn from scratch and develop a personal style. most of the mapmakers have a style of their own and some are easy to recognize just by looking at the map. i wouldn't want that to change just because all the mapmakers follow the same tutorial.

Coleman wrote:If there was a really good gimp (or other free artwork tool) tutorial I would perhaps try to return to map making.

in the world of torrents everything is free

Coleman wrote:Is a map in beta too late to come in and raise a fuss over graphics? Like, if I thought a map was horribly horribly dark and difficult to read without messing with the brightness on my monitor (confirmed viewing it with 3 different computers that have no brightness problems with anything else)?

it's never too late to comment on a map. it's just that the longer you wait the more of a fight the map maker will put up.

so you can go ahead and tell natty that korea is dark but i think he's already working on the colours.

Coleman wrote:Well, it matters in the sense that these are the people I have collaborated with in the past (which I have to do because I suck at art and attempts to get better have just frustrated me) and that there is no real incentive to collaborate with me at this point.

You can always make new friends here. There is surely talent lurking about these forums.

And thanks Dim - I also had to google my way through other sites tutorials, but if this site wants its users to have meaningful tutorials for CC based maps, then it would be way more efficient for this site to have a tut database.

Nice thread Cole.

RjBeals wrote:And thanks Dim - I also had to google my way through other sites tutorials, but if this site wants its users to have meaningful tutorials for CC based maps, then it would be way more efficient for this site to have a tut database.

as long as those tutorials would not become the predominant method of mapmaking i agree.

take for example your tutorial for mountains. purely amazing, but i wouldn't want to see those mountains on each and every map.

yeah - those images are gone. That mountain tutorial no longer exists.

Coleman wrote:If there was a really good gimp (or other free artwork tool) tutorial

I've written a basic GIMP mapmaking tutorial... It's a work in progress, but the 2 first parts are done, and I'll be continuing it when I have some time...

part 1
viewtopic.php?f=466&t=140723

part 2a
viewtopic.php?f=466&t=141577

I know at least 2 new mapmakers who are currently in the main foundry and have utilized this tutorial... so it's at least somewhat helped people I guess?

DiM wrote:

Coleman wrote:

so you can go ahead and tell natty that korea is dark but i think he's already working on the colours.

I am

I personally would prefer people to say that they dont like a map, rather than sitting around waiting for comments, as without comments the map wont go anywhere.

As for giving feedback, if i have a problem with a map i always try to give a suggestion on how to improve something if im going to comment, otherwise the map maker cannot actually improve anything and so my comments have been pretty much pointless. And always try and be slightly encouraging.

Timing: i reckon it is never to late to raise a concern, providing you are reasonable about it, and once again give suggestions on how to improve, rocking up in a beta thread and saying "this maps sucks, i cant read it, and it looks horrible" is not really going to help anything, apart from maybe the map makers foe list grow.
But generally i dont like posting in a topic if i have not read most of it, as it helps no-one to drag things up things that were discussed and decided on on page 2, although i would hope that if i did the map maker would be mature enough to just tell me it had been discussed point it out and then move on...


Oh and always include at least 1 smiley to give the map maker an idea of the mood you are in when posting so they know how seriously to take your post.

Telvannia wrote:Oh and always include at least 1 smiley to give the map maker an idea of the mood you are in when posting so they know how seriously to take your post.

When you put that wry winking smiley in your post, I don't know how seriously to take your post.

natty_dread wrote:

Coleman wrote:If there was a really good gimp (or other free artwork tool) tutorial

I've written a basic GIMP mapmaking tutorial... It's a work in progress, but the 2 first parts are done, and I'll be continuing it when I have some time...

part 1
viewtopic.php?f=466&t=140723

part 2a
viewtopic.php?f=466&t=141577

I know at least 2 new mapmakers who are currently in the main foundry and have utilized this tutorial... so it's at least somewhat helped people I guess?

I am one of them.

The tutorial is a great starting point, but it is unfinished and needs to be finished. It would be good if natty gets this done with the finished map being in live play though.

As for negative comments, ignore them unless they come with good advice, no matter how late in the game they come.

DiM wrote:it all depends on the situation and the comment. i've received comments like: "this map sucks" or "this looks horrible"
such comments are bad. even if my map did suck or looked horrible, those comments did not help me to make it better.
however a negative comment can still be constructive even if it bothers the mapmaker. saying "this map sucks because of this and that and you can change it here and here" will still hurt some feelings but it will also provide some constructive feedback.

i'm the type of person that truthfully speaks his own mind. if i think a map sucks and that it looks horrible then that's just what i'll say. but i will always explain what exactly sucks and even provide suggestions on how it could be improved.
i realise such comments can be regarded as negative and many people hate me for this but i'm a firm believer that nobody should hide their feelings and even more they should never keep quiet just to avoid upsetting somebody.

all your maps suck and look horrible, the only exception is the emperors clothes map, which never even made it to final forge tho.

zimmah wrote:all your maps suck and look horrible, the only exception is the emperors clothes map, which never even made it to final forge tho.

and that's only the fault of the CAs. they saw what a great map that is and being envious of my greatest creation they started to sabotage me.

i'll ask mibi if he wants it exclusively for major command.

I am another one guilty of not always saying what I think in a map thread. Many times I find myself in a map thread with a long list of issues but struggle to actually say what I want to say. I don't tend to have a problem with what people think of me after I leave negative feedback on a map, because I always make sure what I say is constructive and honest. But does anyone else ever write half a page of feedback then for no constructive reason, do not feel like it is worth posting?

gimil wrote:I am another one guilty of not always saying what I think in a map thread. Many times I find myself in a map thread with a long list of issues but struggle to actually say what I want to say. I don't tend to have a problem with what people think of me after I leave negative feedback on a map, because I always make sure what I say is constructive and honest. But does anyone else ever write half a page of feedback then for no constructive reason, do not feel like it is worth posting?

It happens to me sometimes, I'll admit. I know what you mean.

-Sully