Why the censorship?

[cairnswk]

On this one, i have to agree with Dim.
I would have preferred to see the map before it was designated a no-go zone, and then be allowed to have a democratic say in whether it proceeded or not.
Having been the object of a couple of change-it campaigns, i think possibly the foundry could have guided Seamus76 to a better place so that at leasts he could keep the map going rather than have an autocratic decision made.

[DiM]

how in the world did you reach the conclusion that that map was celebrating the death of bin laden?
it was merely a map about a tactical military mission.

does pearl harbour celebrate the death of all the japanese and americans that died that day? no, it's about a tactical military mission.
same for d-day or iwo jima or any other military map that we have.

no map celebrates death? no map is made with the purpose of mocking the dead or insulting the living.
all maps are made in good faith and good taste. those that aren't simply do not make it. the community stops them.
there's no need for you to come and put a stop to it just because you can.
if somebody is offended by the theme of a map he comes and says so. he argues and brings valid points and if he has the support of the community he wins the debate and the map either changes or gets abandoned. that's how the foundry has worked in the past and that's how it should remain.

once you step on the path of censorship there's no telling what will happen. today you don't like bin laden theme, tomorrow you don't like something else and pretty soon all goes to hell.

so i don't even care that seamus asked for the removal of the map the point is that map should have been let to live/die on its own you should not have put a stop to it unless that was the general consensus.


at some point i wanted to make a map about the kennedy assassination. it was a really interesting gameplay idea with several conspiracy theories transformed into multiple objectives. the action took place on several separate planes and for it's time it was something really really new. problem was i didn't have enough time and could not finish all the research i needed.
i guess you would consider that idea as the celebration of jfk's death and lock the thread in a second, right? pfff...

[Seamus76]

I thought maybe I would put up the initial draft for those who didn't get a chance to see it. Personally I never thought the map was offensive, and did not expect the reaction it received. I did respect the decision, but at the same time questioned it in a PM.

Click image to enlarge.

Although I did ask for the map to be removed, it was under the impression that it would be removed quickly anyway, and based on the harsh initial comments I didn't want to be the Solomon Rushdie of the Foundry. I would like to put it back up for comment, or possibly a vote even to see what more people think.

by cairnswk
On this one, i have to agree with Dim.
I would have preferred to see the map before it was designated a no-go zone, and then be allowed to have a democratic say in whether it proceeded or not.
Having been the object of a couple of change-it campaigns, i think possibly the foundry could have guided Seamus76 to a better place so that at least he could keep the map going rather than have an autocratic decision made.

And I do agree with DiM and Cairns that the map should not have been locked, and could have been properly developed by the foundry into a workable idea, or to have been killed by comments. I think the map itself has no offensive qualities, and maybe it was the way i initially worded my gameplay idea that made it seem offensive, which again could have been worked out and changed, etc.

[koontz1973]

Although I did ask for the map to be removed, it was under the impression that it would be removed quickly anyway, and based on the harsh initial comments I didn't want to be the Solomon Rushdie of the Foundry. I would like to put it back up for comment, or possibly a vote even to see what more people think.

Seamus, I liked the map, but my initial comment was solely based on the fact that if this map as it was, was not stopped fast then it would of caused outrage. DiM and cairnswk and myself included may not like the it, but the fact remains that this would of offended many many people. Do you really want to be the Jyllands-Posten or Salman Rushdie of the foundry.

I liked the idea and the game play can be changed to make a decent map, but the title and story will leave you and the site open for hate. thenobodies80 said it crossed a line which he draws (death of a single person). Right or wrong, I agree with him.

Supermax Prison Riot is filled with racism and basically tells the players to unite race/political view based gangs (Blacks, Latino, Nazis) and kill other races.

It is not as the game play does not say kill a certain race. It says to unite the gangs. Now if the goal was to kill all of the Black Guerilla family, I am sure it would not of been allowed as well.

Bamboo Jack is about the deaths of thousands of war prisoners.

But no where on the map does it say that you need to kill thousands of prisoners.
And all of the others that were mentioned, time has given us a chance to reflect and not offend. With the Swastika, I would love to be able to use it on a map and have map makers being able to use it, but this is a symbol that is still in use today that causes pain and suffering.

[greenoaks]

i am not a muslim but found the last sentance offensive.

[MarshalNey]

I'm not censorship person myself, and the less the better as far as creativity goes.

However, this site is privately owned, and owners call the shots. Also, the owner bears the responsibility and fallout of anything that goes on in his site. While the owner makes use of volunteers, and there should be some quid pro quo to the community in light of this (i.e., some authority should be shared), ultimately Lack has to live with what happens to a much more stark degree than any volunteer does. A volunteer can bail on the site whenever he or she desires, leaving in his wake all kinds of trouble.

This map is trouble, in my opinion. Censorship is also trouble, in my opinion. The former puts the site in trouble, the latter puts relations with mapmakers in trouble. As Foundry Foreman, nobodies chose to put the site's interest above the mapmakers', and as much as it pains me to say it... that is his job. He did right by his duty as foreman.

DiM makes a good (if unnecessarily noisy) point about censorship- it shouldn't be used casually, if at all. So perhaps the method was too heavy-handed, when a PM asking Seamus to withdraw the map would have done just as well.

But the phrase at the end of the map flavor text- "... one of the world's most notorious terrorists lay dead."-was inflammatory enough to admirers of bin Laden to merit nobodies' shortcut I think. We have no modern military heroes in America that come to my mind, but imagine being a revolutionary in 1776, and the British sent a death squad after George Washington and killed him. And then made a board game that ended with the same snippet of flavor text. In the eyes of patrotic British citizens, Washington was a good approximation of a terrorist, even if the comparision breaks down when looking at details.

All that said, there is a balance of trust to be maintained between the owner and the community. If censorship is used as a method of bullying or enforcing personal tastes, then that trust becomes strained. In this case, I feel that there were some factors that merited the response from the Foundry, and would defend it as being in the best interests of the site. After all, the monetary business of the site keeps the Foundry open. Although some may feel that information is free on the Internet, computers, servers and electricity actually do consume resources. Trying to make out like it is free is the same as advocating theft.

Finally (and this is the end of my scattered thoughts) the one thing that I most definitely dislike about the lock of the thread was the apparent secrecy. As someone else mentioned (probably DiM) why strip the map image? I think censure of the map would have been sufficient to mollify anyone offended by it, and it would have let concerned mapmakers know why a map was being locked. How else are mapmakers to know where the line exists?

I don't bring this last point up to open up Nobodies to having darts thrown his way- it's easy to criticize when one doesn't have to bear responsibility- and as I said before I think he did his duty as he ought to have done it. I just bring it up so that threads like this aren't needed to shed light on the whole matter.

-- Marshal Ney

[thenobodies80]

Finally the above mess is becoming a discussion.
Why the image was stripped?

In any case, I have no destroyed the map file, so Seamus76 can post it again. Like MN said that was the best and more appropriate action I had to take in that moment.
It was friday morning when I saw the map, I was at work. What I did is what I was able to do in that moment and what I HAD to do in that moment.
My fault was to not have the time to give to him a more thoughtful reason about the lock in that moment, but like I've said in other occasion, this is not the job that give me the bread to live so I have also my RL priorities. What I want to make clear is that I didn't stripped the image from the topic before I received the go ahead from the mapmaker but ONLY AFTER he said to me to do it.

Anyways, Saemus76 has already sent to me a PM about that map only after few minutes I locked the topic...my quick answer to him wasn't a great reply, but today I have the freetime to give him a thoughtful answer and find a way to transform that image in something workable.
It's not that the map can't be done, it's that it can't be done in that way.

So please, the next time, before putting me under the guillottine and referring to the Foundry Foreman as a dictator, please think about the fact that CC is 24/7 and probably my time doesn't match always with your time; gimme the time to finish the work I've started. Then, when it's done, if you don't like it, feel free to push the trigger and cut my head.
The time will show you that I'm one of the most democratic and free minded guy you've ever "met".

Your "evil" Foundry Foreman,
Nobodies

[koontz1973]

thenobodies80, I think what you did was as you say, with the time you had, the best way forward. The last thing I wanted when I posted first in the thread was to upset anyone, especially Seamus as we are starting to become friends. I only posted what I did so as the site we all love does not become in any way involved with major problems.

Saying that, a line has been drawn and it would be nice to hear what would you consider crossing it.

Assassination of JFK (DiM's idea for a map)
Using the KKK in southern America.
Swastika (Banned by Lack)
South Africa (apartheid)
Map of Concentration camps 1945
Map of a real serial killer kills (Jack the Ripper)

Apart from the one already banned, which of these would the mods/site consider crossing the line and can a case for the Swastika on some maps be made?

[Gillipig]

Would a map targeting the assassination of Kennedy be locked?

[Flapcake]

a map of the bloodbath on Norwegian utøya will certainly get some Norwegians out of their chairs, or school shootings in the U.S. (tasteless maps in my opinion) it's about which side you're on, people normally comprise a reason for what they do, the Taliban exercise is not oppression just because they thought that's cool to be evil, but because it is the values of what ​​they believe in is the right thing, it is again very offensive to many others, Nazi celebreating Hitler would sure like to see a map with the 3 empire slaughtering Jews, and the other way around, I thought the line goes by one's own ethics and reasonable morals, yes Seamus card with Bin Laden is reasonable offensive, the ink in the history books are not dry yet, having said that I thought concept sounds very interesting ..
CC is multiethnic, and it does not take much to offend people's religion or political views, why it is also good with this discussions, it shows that people feel a moral responsibility, I believe that there could be a few moral guidelines in nobodies Mapmaker Handbook, it would not harm anybody

[TaCktiX]

As a current member of the US military, I'm going to side on this being rightful censorship. While I agree with the actions taken in the operation depicted, it's way too much of a hot-button issue to be making a map about it. You might have seen on the news a little over a month ago about how a Chinook was shot down over Afghanistan bearing members of SEAL Team 6 (not the same guys who killed Bin Laden, but same group). It's extremely fresh in the mind, and there are people who will argue until the world ends about whether or not it was the right thing to do. I agree with I believe koontz's comment about a lot of our other maps being un-recent enough to allow for reflection. 4 months is definitely not un-recent enough.

[MrBenn]

1. Assassination of JFK (DiM's idea for a map)
2. Using the KKK in southern America.
3. Swastika (Banned by Lack)
4. South Africa (apartheid)
5. Map of Concentration camps 1945
6. Map of a real serial killer kills (Jack the Ripper)

1. Could be done tastefully
2. Seriously? This is a bad idea all the way.
3. Lack has made the decree, and there's a while thread about it elsewhere.
4. This could be done in a "unite the nation" way, but would gave to be done carefully.
5. This feels like another bad idea to me, that couldn't be done in good taste.
6. I struggle to see a way this could be done tastefully; you could probably get away with a jack the ripper themed map with weird masonic links etc, but it would be a stretch. Any more recent serial killer or massacre maps would only probably be in bad taste

[koontz1973]

1. Assassination of JFK (DiM's idea for a map)
2. Using the KKK in southern America.
3. Swastika (Banned by Lack)
4. South Africa (apartheid)
5. Map of Concentration camps 1945
6. Map of a real serial killer kills (Jack the Ripper)

1. Could be done tastefully
2. Seriously? This is a bad idea all the way.
3. Lack has made the decree, and there's a while thread about it elsewhere.
4. This could be done in a "unite the nation" way, but would gave to be done carefully.
5. This feels like another bad idea to me, that couldn't be done in good taste.
6. I struggle to see a way this could be done tastefully; you could probably get away with a jack the rooter themed map with weird masonic links etc, but it would be a stretch. Any more recent serial killer or massacre maps would only probably be in bad taste

I know most, if not all are bad ideas, but with DiM's opening of why the censorship and a line drawn by thenobodies80, it was interesting, trying to think up things that would be banned. Had a hard time thinking of these things. But it is interesting to see that you would of allowed 1, 4, & 6 (if done the right way).

[lostatlimbo]

Can't we all just agree that conquer club needs a map with women in lingerie having a pillow fight?

[DiM]

Can't we all just agree that conquer club needs a map with women in lingerie having a pillow fight?

i second this motion and i demand realistic graphics.

oh and clearly supersize some of the .... ummmm....pillows

[greenoaks]

something like these

[koontz1973]

something like these

Second one would be OK, but more pillows please.

[lostatlimbo]

Now we're talking.

Winning condition = first one to lose their brassier in the course of battle.