Decline in map standards.

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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:11 am

I don't really look at the graphics much. BOB will list all the attack routes for you. The map is made or broken from a gameplay standpoint. Unfortunately, there are different forms of gameplay.

The worst map to be made was Clandemonium. It is terrible in all 3 aspects: uninspiring/uninspired graphics, boring single-player and unnecessary team play.

Now that Clandemonium is done, every other map must therefore be greater. So the trend of cartography standards can be shown to be declining until Clandemonium and then increasing.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:57 am

[quote="koontz1973"
Has the standards decreased - yes or no.
Is anyone to blame - yes or no.
Can it be fixed and how - ?[/quote]

mmm...I was going to continue my previous post but it seems that you want something different and more quick maybe, althought I don't understand where I compared maps except for trying to stop the previous discussion.....anyway quick answer? I'll be quick.

1. Has the standards decreased?
yes from the first time I arrived here. No if you consider just from the moment the new mapmakers has started to come.

2. Is anyone to blame?
what the purpose to reply just yes or no :? Read my previous post

3.Can be fixed and how?
Read my previous post

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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:13 am

thenobodies80 wrote:we know that the old foundry group has left the foundry (probably becuase they were tired to listen to people who don't know about maps)


This may be, and I may be wrong but I think a large reason why the old school left the foundry was the lack of updates, the lack of responsiveness and/or interest from lack.

I seriously fear that if lackattack doesn't get his shit together the same thing may happen eventually to the current mapmakers... you can only watch your ideas fall to deaf ears for so long. We need some serious updates, we need a site admin that actually listens to the people who create content for the site, and actually engages in discourse with them and most of all LISTENS to them... without that, I fear that eventually, we'll end up in the same situation, and I don't think the foundry can recover a second "escape" of talent...
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:21 am

yeah, the lack of updates is certainly a cause of declining standards. Humans, for their nature, put less care and interest in things if they are always the same....
But what I can do? If you want, you and the other mapmakers can collect some money and buy to me airplane ticket. I can go to Canada and punch/kick lackattack all time till he gives us the new toys! lol

On a more serious note, you already know I have an evil plan if necessary :twisted:

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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:00 am

Oh I know, I wasn't really blaming you or trying to put pressure on you.

I just wish we could get lackattack to show up in the foundry and hear the concerns and ideas of mapmakers, even just once every few months... even that would be better than total radio silence.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:27 pm

I'm going to weigh in on this quickly as well.

Has there been a decline in map standards? Well if you're going to compare maps.......:).
I'd say like this; The maps that are being made now have better graphics than the early maps. No question really. But have they improved as much as the tools used to create images? To that question I'd have to say no! I think there is definitely room for improvement.
I don't buy the notion that maps that are being made today are unworthy of being made, or that they somehow don't meet past standards.
I think a lot of the maps that are being made today are among the best looking we have on the site! But I think a lot of them could be even better.

I subscribe to the idea that CA's should be more pushy. They should be like batman :). Tough for the better of us all.
It's better that a CA is picking hard on a mapmaker than if fellow mapmakers will have to dish out the hard criticism. I say "hard" criticism because it's much needed that map makers offer helpful constructive criticism to each other. But I think there should be a unity between map makers and unity isn't easily created if your job is also to act like a CA and tell him what is acceptable and he needs to improve to get a stamp.
I also think map commentators like myself could do a better job at not just offering praise on the maps we like, but to every once in a while comment on maps that we dislike in the foundry.
It's easy to just comment on the maps you like and know you will be playing a lot on, and ignore the maps that you don't like.
"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" might not be a good viewpoint for a mapcommentator to have.
I'll make sure to jump in and post in some of the maps I don't like so watch out map makers ;)!

Another big issue is of course the lack of updates from a certain owner fittingly named lack ;). We could certainly need some new features to play with and I think that would inspire a lot of map makers to bring their a game, and probably lure some new ones into the process.

It turned out to not be a very quick answer but for some reason I just couldn't stop writing :)!
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thehippo8 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:35 pm

cairnswk wrote:
natty dread wrote:
cairnswk wrote:I had offered to be a graphics CA, but it was declined....and i am online everyday :)


I think you'd be better as a gameplay CA.

:o Ooh, natty, i have to disagree there.
Graphics is my much preferred option. :)
On the other-hand, i think you with a proactive stance would also be a great graphics CA. you do have a great understanding of it all from what i see around the place.


I find this astounding! I think he's a fantastic talent and can't help wonder at a decision declining his input. Obviously I'm missing something!
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:04 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:The worst map to be made was Clandemonium. It is terrible in all 3 aspects: uninspiring/uninspired graphics, boring single-player and unnecessary team play.



...though I can only speak for the graphics here (unlike all my other maps), I'm very honored to have taken part on a map that (in your opinion) set the new low standards!

If I can't be famous for the best at least I can be infamous for the worst 8-)
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:17 pm

thehippo8 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
natty dread wrote:
cairnswk wrote:I had offered to be a graphics CA, but it was declined....and i am online everyday :)


I think you'd be better as a gameplay CA.

:o Ooh, natty, i have to disagree there.
Graphics is my much preferred option. :)
On the other-hand, i think you with a proactive stance would also be a great graphics CA. you do have a great understanding of it all from what i see around the place.


I find this astounding! I think he's a fantastic talent and can't help wonder at a decision declining his input. Obviously I'm missing something!


No one told him: "Never" ..... just not that time. There's no point to recruit people if you don't have a job to give them. ;)
Anyway cairnswk knows very well that I have a note on the desk with his name written, in case I need help.

Kabanellas wrote:If I can't be famous for the best at least I can be infamous for the worst 8-)


I think you're already famous for some of the best map on this site mate! ;)

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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby cairnswk on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:36 pm

cairnswk wrote:
DiM wrote:
natty dread wrote:Then, the lack of dedicated CA:s. Don't get me wrong, we have some good CA:s, but we need more of them.


we need at least 2 graphic CAs and 3 gameplay CAs.
and not the kind that log in once per week and post twice per month.


I had offered to be a graphics CA, but it was declined....and i am online everyday :)


Perhaps what i should have written above is:

"I had offered to be a graphics CA, but it was declined due to no places being available at the time....and i am online everyday :)"

Perhaps because of this, i think theHippo8 is correct to have misconstrued the context, but i appreciate his support. :)
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby ViperOverLord on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:45 pm

Kabanellas wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:The worst map to be made was Clandemonium. It is terrible in all 3 aspects: uninspiring/uninspired graphics, boring single-player and unnecessary team play.



...though I can only speak for the graphics here (unlike all my other maps), I'm very honored to have taken part on a map that (in your opinion) set the new low standards!

If I can't be famous for the best at least I can be infamous for the worst 8-)


:lol:

I applaud him for speaking his opinion even if it is harsh. Clandemonium would probably make my top 50. So I'm glad it was made.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby DiM on Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:17 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:There's no point to recruit people if you don't have a job to give them. ;)


somehow i doubt there was ever a time when the foundry didn't need the help of an extra CA.
heck, if it were possible i'd get 10 CAs not a handful like we have now. (of course assuming those 10 CAs are dedicated, quality people)
the foundry needs all the help it can get.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby BadgerJelly on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:09 am

I think if you want better maps you LOTS of people here need to be patient with new Map Makers.

From my personal experience I have had mainly bad experiences in the foundry with so called "feedback" which answered none of the questions I was asking at a very basic level.

As an outsider here I would just like to say that this site is great but the Foundry seems to be quite hostile and mismanaged.

I'm not saying this to be bitchy or anything just trying to say that assuming new comers here have no idea or experience in map making is VERY condisending and maybe thats why maps have apparently declined.

I think the best map on this site are about to be made so I'm happy anyway :mrgreen: Looking foward to Clash of Kings, Eurasia AND easily the best map Kings Court II :shock: Brilliantly designed map ! =D>
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:23 am

BadgerJelly wrote:From my personal experience I have had mainly bad experiences in the foundry with so called "feedback" which answered none of the questions I was asking at a very basic level.


Nope, you had plenty of feedback. Lots of people told you what you needed to do to make your map acceptable. But you didn't maybe get the feedback you wanted to hear. And then you quit working on it.

See, it's not up to the foundry to tell you what kind of map you need to do. You need to come up with the basic idea for your map. If the idea sucks, or lacks substance, we'll tell you and we'll let you know what's wrong with it. But we can't tell you the exact idea for you to make a map about. If we had a really great idea for a map we'd probably make it ourselves. It's up to each mapmaker him/herself to come up with that great idea.

When it comes to technical details, the execution of the idea, there's plenty of feedback available. There's also plenty of help available (on this site and others) if you need help with the graphics. There are even lots of abandoned maps in the bin if you're really strapped for ideas. But you're still the one who's responsible for the idea for your map.

If you want to succeed as a mapmaker, you need to be able to take that feeback, even if it's not what you want to hear, and run with it to the bank. That's how the process works: you make something, others point out what's wrong with it, you fix it, rinse and repeat until you have a ready map.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby BadgerJelly on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:46 am

Don't listen to then not my problem :D
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