Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Topics that are not maps. Discuss general map making concepts, techniques, contests, etc, here.

Moderators: Cartographers, Global Moderators

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:52 pm

Like we announced in past (in this thread), at some point we will have a public map gallery that is nothing else that the public side of the big map database we're currently working on.
After some discussion behind the scenes, we decided that it would be a good thing to have a public discussion for two items we want to add to the map gallery/database: Tag and Complexity Levels.

In this topic we will discuss Complexity Levels, if you want to discuss about Tags, please use this thread.

Right now we have set 4 complexity levels. Unfortunately complexity levels are very subjective so we would like to hear your thoughts before to proceed further.

The current complexity levels are:

  • Simple
  • Standard
  • Difficult
  • Extreme

Few questions about this topic:

1.how many values would you like to have for complexity, and what should they be called?

2.We can agree that the classic map should be basis for a comparison; in this case it has to be considered simple or standard?

Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
show
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class thenobodies80
Foundry Foreman
Foundry Foreman
 
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:30 am
Medals: 70
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Bot Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
General Achievement (8) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (17)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby greenoaks on Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:49 pm

4 is good but 3 (no Simple) might be the way to go. Classic map should be Standard.

Then look at the xml features of a map. Does it have -

  • Bombarding
  • Killer Neutrals
  • (Multiple) Winning Conditions
  • (Multiple) Losing Conditions
    etc

assign points to these things to determine how much more complex, difficult or nonstandard a map is and use that to determine if a map is Difficult or Extreme
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class greenoaks
Tech Contributor
Tech Contributor
 
Posts: 9997
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:47 am
Medals: 138
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (4) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (4)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (30) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (14)
Tournament Contribution (34) General Contribution (4)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby laughingcavalier on Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:16 pm

greenoaks wrote:4 is good but 3 (no Simple) might be the way to go. Classic map should be Standard.


+1
Never more than 3 levels.

Classic is the benchmark for standard maps.

Maybe:
Standard
Challenging
Complex
Image
User avatar
General laughingcavalier
 
Posts: 1370
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:31 pm
Medals: 54
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (6) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (14)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (4)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby greenoaks on Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:43 pm

laughingcavalier wrote:
Never more than 3 levels.

Classic is the benchmark for standard maps.

Maybe:
Standard
Challenging
Complex

i like Challenging/Complex more than Difficult/Extreme
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class greenoaks
Tech Contributor
Tech Contributor
 
Posts: 9997
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:47 am
Medals: 138
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (4) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (4)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (30) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (14)
Tournament Contribution (34) General Contribution (4)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby ender516 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:14 pm

greenoaks wrote:4 is good but 3 (no Simple) might be the way to go. Classic map should be Standard.

Then look at the xml features of a map. Does it have -

  • Bombarding
  • Killer Neutrals
  • (Multiple) Winning Conditions
  • (Multiple) Losing Conditions
    etc

assign points to these things to determine how much more complex, difficult or nonstandard a map is and use that to determine if a map is Difficult or Extreme

I like the points idea. The handful of classifications is good for a shorthand, but detailed ratings based on features should be available so players can make their own judgements more easily.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class ender516
Tech Contributor
Tech Contributor
 
Posts: 4451
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:07 pm
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Medals: 37
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (9)
Map Contribution (5) General Contribution (11)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:48 pm

greenoaks wrote:
  • Bombarding
  • Killer Neutrals
  • (Multiple) Winning Conditions
  • (Multiple) Losing Conditions
    etc

I would start with that list, but I would add a few more things.

1. One-way portals

2. Graphic difficulty (maps where players find that it's difficult to see the attacking pathways and such for purely visual reasons. Northwest Passage, Falklands War, and Poison Rome spring to mind immediately)

3. Overall number of terts.

One-way portals would be part of the base difficulty, but Graphic difficulty and number of terts would be multipliers.

So, you would have a formula much like Difficulty = (1+Number of Complicating Factors {bombards, one-ways, collection bonuses, autodeploys, victory conditions, losing conditions, conditional borders, killer neutrals}) x (1+(subjective popular rating of graphical difficulty on a scale of 1 to 5)/10) x (1+(number of terts on map/number of terts on largest known map on site).

This gives you a difficulty rating between 1 and about 27. However, it is expandable if even more Complicating Factors are introduced later.

To make neater numbers I suppose we could take the square root of the whole thing.
SQRT[(1+Number of Complicating Factors {bombards, one-ways, collection bonuses, autodeploys, victory conditions, losing conditions, conditional borders, killer neutrals}) x (1+(subjective popular rating of graphical difficulty on a scale of 1 to 5)/10) x (1+(number of terts on map/number of terts on largest known map on site)] gives a value of 1 to 3.

I agree that Classic should be the benchmark for what is a Standard map. However, Classic by my formula comes out with a rating of only about 1.25 to maybe 1.5, so the range for a Simple map would be only from 1 to 1.2. This would apply to really simple maps like Doodle and Luxembourg.

I think we need to have a lot more than 3 grades, however. If Simple describes Doodles and Standard describes Classic, it's ridiculous that there should be only one level above that. Arms Race is a whole order of magnitude more complex than Classic, but certainly Lunar War is another order of magnitude tougher than Arms Race, and Stalingrad is easily another level of magnitude tougher than Lunar War, and so on. I don't think it would be wrong to have five or seven levels above Standard.
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 9501
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 125
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (18)
General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (31)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:37 am

If we go with Dukasaur, then we could have 10 or more levels of complexity. This would be way too much. 5 is a good number.

    Beginners - Doodle
    Standard - Classic
    Challenging - 1982
    Complex - Das Schloss
    Uber Complex - Stalingrad, Waterloo
Sergeant 1st Class koontz1973
Cartography Assistant
Cartography Assistant
 
Posts: 7538
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:57 am
Medals: 116
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Map Contribution (12)
Tournament Contribution (31) General Contribution (9)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby greenoaks on Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:03 am

koontz1973 wrote:If we go with Dukasaur, then we could have 10 or more levels of complexity. This would be way too much. 5 is a good number.

    Beginners - Doodle
    Standard - Classic
    Challenging - 1982
    Complex - Das Schloss
    Uber Complex - Stalingrad, Waterloo

i would scratch Beginners because the Classic map is the beginners map.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class greenoaks
Tech Contributor
Tech Contributor
 
Posts: 9997
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:47 am
Medals: 138
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (4) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (4)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (30) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (14)
Tournament Contribution (34) General Contribution (4)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:19 am

greenoaks wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:If we go with Dukasaur, then we could have 10 or more levels of complexity. This would be way too much. 5 is a good number.

    Beginners - Doodle
    Standard - Classic
    Challenging - 1982
    Complex - Das Schloss
    Uber Complex - Stalingrad, Waterloo

i would scratch Beginners because the Classic map is the beginners map.

We have simpler maps though. So maybe not beginners but something that shows a level of game play a blind cat could play. It could be Elementary or Standard Lite.
Sergeant 1st Class koontz1973
Cartography Assistant
Cartography Assistant
 
Posts: 7538
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:57 am
Medals: 116
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Map Contribution (12)
Tournament Contribution (31) General Contribution (9)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:31 am

koontz1973 wrote:If we go with Dukasaur, then we could have 10 or more levels of complexity. This would be way too much. 5 is a good number.

    Beginners - Doodle
    Standard - Classic
    Challenging - 1982
    Complex - Das Schloss
    Uber Complex - Stalingrad, Waterloo


i agree with koontz about 5 levels...but koontz how the hell did you get Waterloo into the Uber Complex category and Das Schloss into the Complex category?
User avatar
Corporal cairnswk
 
Posts: 11490
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:32 pm
Medals: 50
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (2) Map Contribution (35) General Contribution (3)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:46 am

cairnswk wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:If we go with Dukasaur, then we could have 10 or more levels of complexity. This would be way too much. 5 is a good number.

    Beginners - Doodle
    Standard - Classic
    Challenging - 1982
    Complex - Das Schloss
    Uber Complex - Stalingrad, Waterloo


i agree with koontz about 5 levels...but koontz how the hell did you get Waterloo into the Uber Complex category and Das Schloss into the Complex category?

Personal preference. But this leads onto the next discussion. How the hell do you put a map into a category without hiring a math professor to run complex equations.

My vote would then go for:
Standard Lite
Standard
Challenging
Complex
Uber Complex

and leave it up to someone else to put maps into each. :P
Sergeant 1st Class koontz1973
Cartography Assistant
Cartography Assistant
 
Posts: 7538
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:57 am
Medals: 116
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Map Contribution (12)
Tournament Contribution (31) General Contribution (9)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby greenoaks on Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:08 am

there is no need to have anything before Standard. Classic is the basic training map. the map for beginners.

sure, split the maps above Classic into many groups but it is pointless to create a group before Beginners because the only thing before beginners is 'Never played Risk before'.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class greenoaks
Tech Contributor
Tech Contributor
 
Posts: 9997
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:47 am
Medals: 138
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (4) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (4)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (30) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (14)
Tournament Contribution (34) General Contribution (4)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby laughingcavalier on Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:48 am

greenoaks wrote:there is no need to have anything before Standard. Classic is the basic training map. the map for beginners.

sure, split the maps above Classic into many groups but it is pointless to create a group before Beginners because the only thing before beginners is 'Never played Risk before'.


+1 again
And the difficulty of deciding which complexity rating a map gets is more argument for keeping the complexity ratings simple & few.
You could say doodle is more complex than classic for example - because the action is so fast on a small map you need to get your game right form turn 1 ....

Only 3 complexity levels please.
Image
User avatar
General laughingcavalier
 
Posts: 1370
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:31 pm
Medals: 54
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (6) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (14)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (4)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:10 am

I like the 5 categories.

The first category could be just "mini-maps" to explain Doodle, Luxembourg, etc. It's not really a complexity tag, but more just a tag indicating the map is much smaller than Classic and has no special GP features.

Then Standard (any map that is based solely on geographic gameplay with clearly defined attack paths, i.e., Conquer Man or Conquer 4 would be excluded)
Then Conquest (while this denotes a map type, it could also be used to explain any map with starting positions). Most of these maps have progressive bonus structures as well (AOR, Jamaica, New World, etc)
Then Challenging (maybe geographic maps with tons of regions, unclear attack routes (at least for a novice, like HIve, Bamboo Jack, Forbidden City, Poison Rome, Rail maps, etc) and maps with special GP features (losing conditions, winning conditions)
And finally, Formidable. Basically, any map that if a person is playing on it for the first time...they're not going to know what is going on (i.e., Stalingrad, Waterloo, Monsters, Das Schloss, Conquer Rome, KCII, etc).

With the variety of maps on this site, I like the idea of 5 categories. 3 would group too many different maps into the same category, but 10 is just overwhelming. And I do like the idea of some sort of mathematic formula, but I think the one Duka mentioned is too complex, lol.
Image
User avatar
Major nolefan5311
 
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:51 am
Location: Florida
Medals: 108
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (29) General Achievement (5)
Clan Achievement (12) Map Contribution (4) Tournament Contribution (12) General Contribution (4)

Re: Map Complexity [Public Discussion/Review]

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:01 am

koontz1973 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:If we go with Dukasaur, then we could have 10 or more levels of complexity. This would be way too much. 5 is a good number.

    Beginners - Doodle
    Standard - Classic
    Challenging - 1982
    Complex - Das Schloss
    Uber Complex - Stalingrad, Waterloo


i agree with koontz about 5 levels...but koontz how the hell did you get Waterloo into the Uber Complex category and Das Schloss into the Complex category?

Personal preference. But this leads onto the next discussion. How the hell do you put a map into a category without hiring a math professor to run complex equations.

Well, that's the beauty of computers: they run complex math equations all day long, and never get sick of the job. And they're cheaper than hiring professors.

When something is to be computerized, there's no reason not to account for all the factors in detail. Simplifying formulas is for work you might have to do in the field, where you might have to work stuff out with pen-and-paper. Since CC is on the Internet, you will by definition be using a computer every time you're on CC.

My vote would then go for:
Standard Lite
Standard
Challenging
Complex
Uber Complex

and leave it up to someone else to put maps into each. :P

The first part of my formula, the Complicating Factors, would be entered by the mapmaker or possibly a cartography advisor, via a simple set of radio buttons, like answering a forum poll. A matter of a few seconds.

The second part, the graphical difficulty, would probably best be done by a poll of the players, since there's a large subjective element. Again, a simple matter of them being directed to a forum poll, after that the computer does the work.

The calculation of the number of terts could be completely automatic as would the crunching of the numbers and the presentation of a final score.
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 9501
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 125
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (18)
General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (31)

Next

Return to Foundry Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Login