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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby ZaBeast on Fri May 04, 2018 11:26 pm

dakky21 wrote:No one would say they've lost any HP during the night or if they were notified because then ... either:
1) there is a vig
or
2) they are NOT scum
or
3) they are scum which vig attacked

So I don't think we will learn anything from this night.

I haven't been notified about any lost HP as well.


But scum already know who is and who's not scum, so why would it be problematic for town to say they've been hit? I mean, it could reveal to scum we have an inept vig. who shot N1 or a SK, but I'd be more inclined to believe whoever's been hit last night was due to scum's kill and is therefore town, so I think the advantages of disclosure outweight the potential downsides. And if two persons come forward, there's a fair chance one of them is lying and trying to pass as a townie.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby Skoffin on Sat May 05, 2018 6:11 am

I assumed everyone has different levels of HP - otherwise what would be the point of having HP at all.


Beast beat me to do, but he is correct. Scum already know who they targeted so the target not stepping forward just keeps town uninformed.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby strike wolf on Sat May 05, 2018 8:39 pm

I was not informed of any lost HP. OF course unless I missed it, there's an obvious question here:

Doom, would someone know when they lose HP?

Unfortunately I don't feel I have much to go on right now.

As I said late yesterday, I have mixed feelings about Dakky. On one hand, he did something I found really scummy. On the other, his attempted suicide might actually be a town tell (I would have to go back through other games with him as mafia vs town to really be sure and frankly I don't have the time for that.

Skoffin has been fairly absent and little things may be adding up but while the HP thing here was a decent catch, I have to admit that I had come to the same conclusion.

P.S. I never had a pr. The letters started out as a joke then a run on gag then it seemed to be getting some discussion then too much discussion as to be a distraction rather than helpful and then I kind of felt stuck with it.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.


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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby strike wolf on Sat May 05, 2018 8:40 pm

strike wolf wrote:I was not informed of any lost HP. OF course unless I missed it, there's an obvious question here:

Doom, would someone know when they lose HP?

Unfortunately I don't feel I have much to go on right now.

As I said late yesterday, I have mixed feelings about Dakky. On one hand, he did something I found really scummy. On the other, his attempted suicide might actually be a town tell (I would have to go back through other games with him as mafia vs town to really be sure and frankly I don't have the time for that.

Skoffin has been fairly absent and little things may be adding up but while the HP thing here was a decent catch, I have to admit that I had come to the same conclusion.

P.S. I never had a pr. The letters started out as a joke then a run on gag then it seemed to be getting some discussion then too much discussion as to be a distraction rather than helpful and then I kind of felt stuck with it.


Ebwop: I had come to the same conclusion as her.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby dakky21 on Sat May 05, 2018 8:57 pm

strike wolf wrote:P.S. I never had a pr. The letters started out as a joke then a run on gag then it seemed to be getting some discussion then too much discussion as to be a distraction rather than helpful and then I kind of felt stuck with it.


This should be noted for further PR's, because it is a cool PR.

Anyway, I also wonder if people are notified about loss of HP?
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby Pikanchion on Sun May 06, 2018 3:33 am

I would be very surprised if you are not notified about it.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun May 06, 2018 5:39 am

I'm not sure whether to answer the question or not. However, the answer is nobody will know their HP after game start.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby Ragian on Sun May 06, 2018 2:50 pm

So...would we be informed of any loss of HP if targeted by scum?
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby ZaBeast on Sun May 06, 2018 4:46 pm

From his answer above, it looks like a pretty clear no to me
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby strike wolf on Sun May 06, 2018 5:07 pm

At the very least I see more reasons to not answer if it's no than if it's yes.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun May 06, 2018 5:35 pm

Well I figured I would just keep getting questions about it and then needless speculation. There are several reasons for not giving that information out, and I can address them all when the game is done.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby dakky21 on Sun May 06, 2018 7:43 pm

So from what I understand, no one will know if someone attacked them? If that is so, we learned nothing from day 1 and will not learn anything till scum makes a night kill, but even then we won't know how much HP anyone has, so I guess only our actions should move the game forward. That screams for a mass claim....
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby strike wolf on Sun May 06, 2018 8:48 pm

A mass claim with no one dead and duplicate name claims? That doesn't sound like a recipe for success. I don't disagree with you though with no guaranteed immediate result from a lynch that the motivation seems to be draining out of people.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby Pikanchion on Mon May 07, 2018 1:40 am

If we don't learn whether anybody took damage then we have no feedback for roleblockers, doctors, jailors, etc. We will often gain no feedback from lynching either.

Either we rely on having a cop or similar and continue to no lynch, or we need people to make claims. How many claims and under what conditions would be up for debate, but I actually wouldn't be too against a mass claim.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Mon May 07, 2018 5:00 am

dakky21 wrote:So from what I understand, no one will know if someone attacked them? If that is so, we learned nothing from day 1 and will not learn anything till scum makes a night kill, but even then we won't know how much HP anyone has, so I guess only our actions should move the game forward. That screams for a mass claim....

This is a terrible idea.

Pikanchion wrote:If we don't learn whether anybody took damage then we have no feedback for roleblockers, doctors, jailors, etc. We will often gain no feedback from lynching either.

Either we rely on having a cop or similar and continue to no lynch, or we need people to make claims. How many claims and under what conditions would be up for debate, but I actually wouldn't be too against a mass claim.

Or we all have some goofy unique roles and that makes the mass claim pointless/worthless and a giant red target on some people.
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Symmetry wrote:Ok, so some stuff goes over your head?


No not here anyway. He never said they were forced.


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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Mon May 07, 2018 5:01 am

I'll start this off.

Vote Pika
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Symmetry wrote:Ok, so some stuff goes over your head?


No not here anyway. He never said they were forced.


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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby Ragian on Mon May 07, 2018 5:52 am

Mass claim doesn't make sense with duplicate names and unique roles. However, Pika raises an important issue. Let's say that X blocked Y yesterday. Perhaps that's the reason for the lack of NK rather than the HP system. We'll never know, though.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby Skoffin on Mon May 07, 2018 6:22 am

I am going to assume the purpose of not telling us who has lost HP is to avoid situations of potentially clearing people based on HP loss, or trap scum into avoiding NKs to pretend to take loses.


As mentioned I am also assuming we all have different HP amounts.
Based on my HP it would take a great many days to lynch me, so to counter that there must be roles that can alter HP levels either temporarily or permanently. However even with that, if everyone had the same HP amount I do then it would take forever to get anyone killed unless every single player worked together to use their abilities on the same person until they were removed. So from here I am 100% confident in saying everyone has different HP levels, cause nothing else would make sense.
From here I am also extrapolating that there may be people with their HP/any ability even out, and those with bigger strengths and weaknesses to counteract each other.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby strike wolf on Mon May 07, 2018 5:42 pm

We can't afford to no lynch until we get a result. We didn't lynch yesterday and it put us in this crap position where we Are still searching for a legitimate case to explore. A mass claim as well is likely to help mafia more than us at this point. Duplicate roles apparently exist at least in name so there's less possibility of counter claim potential on town side and in the meantime, scu m likely will benefit more than town as they know who is and isn't lying (save third party possibilities).
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon May 07, 2018 6:08 pm

Vote Count

Pika (1) - DDS

Deadline is May 11.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Tue May 08, 2018 8:04 am

We have only 3 days to decide what we want to do, we've tried the no lynch and that didn't get us anywhere, let's try lynching someone to at least see if it's worth anything.
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Symmetry wrote:Ok, so some stuff goes over your head?


No not here anyway. He never said they were forced.


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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue May 08, 2018 7:02 pm

Yikes, another game sinking like a stone. This is getting discouraging.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby ZaBeast on Tue May 08, 2018 7:11 pm

We're not being notified we lost lives probably to make it harder on town, or to hide wacky abilities. As DY said there are multiple reasons for not letting people know their HP, I suspect it's probably both. And indeed it's gonna make it harder on town, it doesn't affect only roleblocking roles, but also any tracking role is way less helpful as well.
DDS, is there a rationale behind your vote? Your gut feeling was with Aage last round, what made you change your mind? I agree we should try to lynch someone, and I'll stick with my vote on dakky for now, as I don't have much more to go on. Vote dakky
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby strike wolf on Tue May 08, 2018 9:05 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Yikes, another game sinking like a stone. This is getting discouraging.


Unfortunately I think the HP system is kind of discouraging strong voting patterns and with lack of votes and lack of cases, I think general activity has been somewhat discouraged.

I would have liked to think Pik a has a secondary win con pushing him to go for No lynches but he also hasn't added much in terms of content when talking about other players.


Pikanchion wrote:
ZaBeast wrote:♪ If you're scummy and you know it clap your hands
If you're scummy and you know it clap your hands
If you're scummy and you know it, even if you don't wanna say it,
if you're scummy and you know it, clap your hands ♪

An excellent ruse! Let us all give ZaBeast a hearty round of applause for this mighty rendition! Who wishes to start us off?


Joke vote stage. There was also a joke vote on Skoffin that didn't seem worth quoting.

quote="Pikanchion"]Do we really even get any information when somebody is lynched if they have sufficent HP not to die from it? -With HP values of different players hidden (and potentially at different starting values given they have only been explicitly stated in the role PMs so far) there's really no telling how long it will be until the first person dies, and without a role reveal we can't even use the voting patterns as particularly reliable data until potentially much later in the game if the initial lynchee is not killed for some time...

Could this be a game where no lynch is the best option?

The most important variable here is how much damage scum do on their NK, if they only hit for 1 like the lynch then assuming we have a cop it's surely better to keep everybody as healthy as possible while the cop gets on with their job, they may well find scum before anybody even dies.[/quote]


First post out of joke vote and immediately petitions about no lynching. Nothing about any particular player.


Pikanchion wrote:
strike wolf wrote:
Pikanchion wrote:Do we really even get any information when somebody is lynched if they have sufficent HP not to die from it? -With HP values of different players hidden (and potentially at different starting values given they have only been explicitly stated in the role PMs so far) there's really no telling how long it will be until the first person dies, and without a role reveal we can't even use the voting patterns as particularly reliable data until potentially much later in the game if the initial lynchee is not killed for some time...

Could this be a game where no lynch is the best option?

The most important variable here is how much damage scum do on their NK, if they only hit for 1 like the lynch then assuming we have a cop it's surely better to keep everybody as healthy as possible while the cop gets on with their job, they may well find scum before anybody even dies.

The best info well get is still what we would usually get voting patterns and people reacting to how the vote goes. However, without confirmed flips from lunches, voting patterns become more murky. Still as always, the worst mistake a town can make is to not give the appearance of trying to lynch. We can't rely on the idea that there is even a traditional investigative role in an experimental game (there may be no cop and tracker/watcher results could be obscured by mafia kills not going through on the first try due to the hp system). Even if there are providing pressure and getting slips can help focus investigations.

I've been continuing to mull this over for a few days, and I still believe a No Lynch is the best option for today at least. Scum's nightkill can't be a one hit kill unless there is only one scum player because otherwise it quickly becomes impossible for town to ever win (say we have just 2 scum with 2 HP each, then town can only afford one mislynch during the entire game), so with that in mind a succession of random lynches by town at the start is just giving scum a list of weakened targets for easy pickings as the game progresses.

We should either all agree to lynch the same person that is chosen for today's lynch every day until they die (thus giving the normal benefits associated with lynching that we miss out from due to the HP system without leaving a load of different people injured), or No Lynch until we have some degree of actionable intel from night actions (even if that information is not as specific as a cop's night result).


Pikanchion wrote:
ZaBeast wrote:And also claiming would be an issue (do you claim when a lynch would kill you, when you're at risk of losing 1 HP and therefore put yourself at risk of getting picked on by scum in the meantime, or somewhere in between (if you have more than 2 HP)?)

I had given this some thought too; claiming is going to be an issue whatever we do.

If we decide players don't need to claim the first time they are lynched then they have no reason to claim until they are already close to death, at which point a low HP scum player could potentially gift their team the knowledge of any remaining role in the game by simply claiming to be said role and forcing a counterclaim at the last moment. Worse is the fact that scum can afford to not claim for longer than town players can, safe in the knowledge that they won't be picked off by an easy scum NK if they wait until their last HP to claim. Meanwhile a town player may feel the need to claim at 2 HP, because claiming any half-decent role at 1 HP near guarantees they won't survive the night anyway.

If we expect a claim on the first lynch, however, you create an incentive for powerful town roles to lie in their claims because scum will be the only ones who have no reason to doubt they're telling the truth. If they don't claim then town lynches them in x days, if they do claim (truthfully) then scum NKs them in x days, but if they lie and town believes them they won't be lynched and scum will likely target other players looking for those perceived to be more powerful, even if town doesn't believe them they still only die in that same x days because scum won't be wasting their NK on somebody they know town is set on killing.


Pikanchion wrote:
Ragian wrote:Also, someone raised a nice question: How harsh is the scum nk? Does it take one HP or a life entirely? Would the mod tell us as much?

That somebody was me, but I also already answered it =P
Pikanchion wrote:The most important variable here is how much damage scum do on their NK, if they only hit for 1 like the lynch then assuming we have a cop it's surely better to keep everybody as healthy as possible while the cop gets on with their job, they may well find scum before anybody even dies.
Pikanchion wrote:I've been continuing to mull this over for a few days[...]Scum's nightkill can't be a one hit kill unless there is only one scum player because otherwise it quickly becomes impossible for town to ever win (say we have just 2 scum with 2 HP each, then town can only afford one mislynch during the entire game)


Nice self-emphasis on your contribution. Especially since everyone else is starting to talk about other people in the game by this point.

Pikanchion wrote:I think I made my stance and reasoning clear already so...
Unvote: Skoffin
Vote: No Lynch
I'm happy to wait for the night phase to provide some clarity on what is going on.


Pikanchion wrote:
dakky21 wrote:we can lynch me to see how the HP system works. Got enough HP, can risk one.

We know a lynch takes 1 HP, that is pretty much the only thing we actually do know about the system already, how would lynching you on your own request help reveal anything?


5th post since joke phase and this is the closest Pik a has come to a player analysis so far.

Pikanchion wrote:So we have an experimental setup with completely unknown roles and now somebody wants to be lynched? That's not at all suspicious...


Okay. This is a little bit of something at least.

Pikanchion wrote:Ragian day vig confirmed :O

Also (presumably) scum don't have a 1 shot night kill confirmed.

I did not learn anything last night.


Pikanchion wrote:Until everybody has posted there's not much to discuss with regards to lynching today.


I guess putting mild suspicion on Dakky was too much strain for you and you've gone back to noncommittal.

Pikanchion wrote:I would be very surprised if you are not notified about it.


Thanks for the confirmation.

Pikanchion wrote:If we don't learn whether anybody took damage then we have no feedback for roleblockers, doctors, jailors, etc. We will often gain no feedback from lynching either.

Either we rely on having a cop or similar and continue to no lynch, or we need people to make claims. How many claims and under what conditions would be up for debate, but I actually wouldn't be too against a mass claim.


You've posted 14 times. Frankly right now you don't look like someone who is wondering who is secretly against them.

I would say Skoffin is equally valid for these reasons. Talking about game mechanics. Only once saying anything that resembled a non-joke accusation.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.


Strike wolf need brain for smart making.
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Re: Unternehmen Michael: Day 2... a quiet night?

Postby strike wolf on Tue May 08, 2018 9:08 pm

Ebwop:

strike wolf wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Yikes, another game sinking like a stone. This is getting discouraging.


Unfortunately I think the HP system is kind of discouraging strong voting patterns and with lack of votes and lack of cases, I think general activity has been somewhat discouraged.

I would have liked to think Pik a has a secondary win con pushing him to go for No lynches but he also hasn't added much in terms of content when talking about other players.


show


Stupid copy paste and me missing a bracket.

I also meant to add that id be happy going after either of them.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.


Strike wolf need brain for smart making.
User avatar
Cadet strike wolf
 
Posts: 8240
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:03 pm
Location: Sandy Springs, GA (just north of Atlanta)
Medals: 23
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (4) General Contribution (6)

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