[Abandoned] - A New Asia Map

[Industrial Helix]

I prefer Dim's allocation of areas in Asia, it seems more natural to me.

And that little dip in China's western border... isn't that Chinese Kashmir and part of China?

[natty dread]

gobble gobble!

[grifftron]

gobble gobble!

lol. So is there an actually draft of this map yet? I have not yet seen peter post a draft? or am i not seeing it? Very interested as I live here in Asia

-griff

[natty dread]

mr. benn posted the draft on page 1

[MrBenn]

Here's an alternative bonus distribution that, to me, makes a bit more sense:

Click image to enlarge.

Certain borders might need to either be exaggerated or glossed over, like Afghanistan-China and North Korea-Russia. The Middle East rectangle from Qatar to Lebanon might have to be in an insert because of the smallness of the countries involved.

After a little bit of thought, I was going to suggest something a bit more like that; although I still think there need to be some smaller regions to give people somewhere to start.

I've spent the evening looking at map projections (http://www.quadibloc.com/maps/mapint.htm ), and have found an Azimuthal equidistant projection that makes the Middle East a bit bigger without distorting the rest of the continent. I'll sketch out the new land borders at some point over the weekend I imagine; in the meantime, any further suggestions for groupings would be gratefully received.

I see the sense in keeping all of Russia as a single continent, although the Transcontinental region made a nice little starting bloc.
It makes sense to add Kazakhstan to the region with the other -stans which also makes that bloc defendable.
The Middle East will link up with India via an ocean route between socotra (Yemenese Islands) and the Lakshadweep islands.
I like the grouping for India that DIMwit suggested, although I expect we might need an impassable between nepal/bhutan and china?
With Indonesia, we'll need to decide what to do with Malaysia, which occupies two separate landmasses. I included Papua New Guinea for completeness, even though it isn't technically in Asia!
Japan and the Japanese islands could make for a nice small bonus, separate from China.

That's just some random thoughts for now!

[Evil DIMwit]

After a little bit of thought, I was going to suggest something a bit more like that; although I still think there need to be some smaller regions to give people somewhere to start.

In the Middle East, we could separate the Arabian Peninsula from the Fertile Crescent.

I like the grouping for India that DIMwit suggested, although I expect we might need an impassable between nepal/bhutan and china?

Agreed; it makes both geographic and gameplay sense.

[Industrial Helix]

Hmm... I think a Japan, Japanese Islands, South Korea, Taiwan bonus could work well as a small area.

Might as well include Papua New Guinea... its on the same damn island.

If it were the Malay Peninsula then I would say through it in that South East Asian group. But since its a multiple land area thing... Include it in the other bonus and keep it one country. I think Indonesia made a grab for it after both Malaysia and Indonesia got independence and the Malay's repelled the invader quite well.

I believe Phuket is not a country. Neither is Andaman and Nicobar, Sokotra, or Lakshadweep... Shouldn't Indonesia be one space? If the idea is to depict every country, then stick to it... which presents an interesting situation for Taiwan...

[Evil DIMwit]

If the idea is to depict every country, then stick to it... which presents an interesting situation for Taiwan...

Surely some exception can be made here. Look at the Europa map: Denmark, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland are all different territories; as are the constituents of the United Kingdom; as are Russia and Kaliningrad. It makes perfect sense that Taiwan be separate from mainland China -- you might even go so far as to separate Hong Kong/Macau from the rest of the country.

[Industrial Helix]

Surely some exception can be made here. Look at the Europa map: Denmark, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland are all different territories; as are the constituents of the United Kingdom; as are Russia and Kaliningrad. It makes perfect sense that Taiwan be separate from mainland China -- you might even go so far as to separate Hong Kong/Macau from the rest of the country.

Yeah, that's a good point. Taiwan does in fact have autonomy despite lack of recognition. HK and Macao are similar really. I could see them having their own territories as well. I feel differently about places like Phuket and some of those obscure islands in the Indian Ocean. Likewise for each of the Indonesian islands. It should all be one.

[Peter Gibbons]

Surely some exception can be made here. Look at the Europa map: Denmark, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland are all different territories; as are the constituents of the United Kingdom; as are Russia and Kaliningrad. It makes perfect sense that Taiwan be separate from mainland China -- you might even go so far as to separate Hong Kong/Macau from the rest of the country.

Yeah, that's a good point. Taiwan does in fact have autonomy despite lack of recognition. HK and Macao are similar really. I could see them having their own territories as well. I feel differently about places like Phuket and some of those obscure islands in the Indian Ocean. Likewise for each of the Indonesian islands. It should all be one.

This was my initial thought, too.

Taiwan and Palestine both have some recognition and I tend to think we should use them--unless we don't need to (or if including Palestine is too difficult given the geography).

I'd be wary of using Hong Kong and Macau since they are A) so tiny and B) have lost autonomy, rather than gained it. But if using them helps the map, I'm all for it.

Indonesia is an interesting case. I was going to firmly state we shouldn't divide it, but then I think of the Balearics, Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily on the Europa map. I think if we stick with the larger islands like Borneo, Java and Sumatra, we could have something. Japan is tougher, though.

I'm going to think about it a little and present a list of the territories I think we should use.

Also, in order to focus gameplay, I really believe that the first big decision has to be what to do with Russia. The "European Russia" and "Asia Russia" is one option, but that sort of defeats the purpose of it only being an Asian map. What do people think of Russia being a starting neutral then a +1 autodeploy?

[Evil DIMwit]

Indonesia is an interesting case. I was going to firmly state we shouldn't divide it, but then I think of the Balearics, Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily on the Europa map. I think if we stick with the larger islands like Borneo, Java and Sumatra, we could have something. Japan is tougher, though.

Well, right now if we count country by country, we have:

show

We get 48-49 territories (unless I missed something). In that light, splitting up Indonesia/Malaysia could be a good way to get it up to a proper number of territories -- 52, 53, or 57.

[MrBenn]

Europa has 56 territories in total, with 3 neutrals to bring it down to 53 starts. Ideally it would be nice to try and make this map at least the same size if not a little bit bigger, which is why I added in anything that looked like it could be named!

That said, I'm not fixated on anything in particular - I'm going to try and leave some of this early decision-making to MrGibbons

[MrBenn]

Here are some of my thoughts on how territories could be grouped (the number in brackets are territory counts, not bonus values):

Siberia 1-3 - Russia, (Ostrov Sakhalin), (Kuril Islands)
Caucasus 4 - Azerbaijan, Georgia, Armenia, Turkey
Arabia 7-8 - Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen, (Socotra), Saudi Arabia, Kuwait
Levant 5-8 - Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, (Palestine?{West Bank/Gaza Strip}), (Cyprus)
Middle Asia 6-7 - Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Iran, {Pakistan*}
The Orient 6-11 - China, (Hainan), (Hong Kong), (Macau), Taiwan, (Tibet?), Mongolia, North Korea, South Korea, Japan, (Japanese Islands??)
Indian Subcontinent 6-9 - Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal, {Pakistan*}, Sri Lanka, (Maldives), (Lakshadweep Islands), (Andaman and Nicobar islands)
Indochina 5-6- Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Peninsular Malaysia*

Malay Archipelego - East Malaysia*, Brunei, (Indonesia**), Philippines, Singapore, East Timor/Timor-Leste, (Papua New Guinea)
( Indonesia** - Java, Sumatra, Sulawesi, Borneo***, Lesser Sunda Islands (Bali etc), New Guinea )
( Borneo**?? - East Malaysia, Brunei, Kalimantan )

To preserve continuity, I think I'd opt against splitting Russia/Malaysia into separate parts, but this is more problematic in the Malay Archipelago... Malalysia could be two distinct terrs in two regions, or a single terr that is in both... Indonesia could be a terr on its own, or a region made up its principal islands. Regional Indonesia could be included in the Malay Archipelago region, or the two could combine with Indochina to make a supercontinent (as per World 2.1)...

These are the questions that will need some serious thought... In the meantime, I've got a new basemap to draw

[cairnswk]

My comments on the continent structure only...

Here are some of my thoughts on how territories could be grouped (the number in brackets are territory counts, not bonus values):

Siberia 1-3 - Russia, (Ostrov Sakhalin), (Kuril Islands) Yes
Caucasus 4 - Azerbaijan, Georgia, Armenia, Turkey Yes
Arabia 7-8 - Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen, (Socotra), Saudi Arabia, Kuwait Yes
Levant 5-8 - Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, (Palestine?{West Bank/Gaza Strip}), Yes (Cyprus <- according to wiki part of the european continent and European Union)

Middle Asia 6-7 - Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Iran Yes
The Orient 6-11 - China, (Hainan), (Hong Kong), (Macau), Taiwan, (Tibet?), Mongolia, North Korea, South Korea, Japan, (Japanese Islands??) Yes
Indian Subcontinent 6-9 - Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal, {Pakistan*}, Sri Lanka, (Maldives), (Lakshadweep Islands), (Andaman and Nicobar islands) Yes, with ref to Pakistan, it was part of India ages ago, so belongs in this subgroup
Indochina 5-6- Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Peninsular Malaysia* Yes
Malay Archipelego - East Malaysia*, Brunei, (Indonesia**), Philippines, Singapore, East Timor/Timor-Leste, (Papua New Guinea) <- No. Why not make Phillipines, East Timor, Papua & New Guinea (not Irian Jaya) their own small independant group, and keep Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore as the Malaccas/Malay continent.
( Indonesia** - Java, Sumatra, Sulawesi, Borneo***, Lesser Sunda Islands (Bali etc), New Guinea ) <- New Guinea is Irian Jaya
( Borneo**?? - East Malaysia, Brunei, Kalimantan ) Yes

To preserve continuity, I think I'd opt against splitting Russia/Malaysia into separate parts, but this is more problematic in the Malay Archipelago... Malalysia could be two distinct terrs in two regions, or a single terr that is in both... Indonesia could be a terr on its own, or a region made up its principal islands. Regional Indonesia could be included in the Malay Archipelago region, or the two could combine with Indochina to make a supercontinent (as per World 2.1)...

I think Malaya

These are the questions that will need some serious thought... In the meantime, I've got a new basemap to draw

[Peter Gibbons]

As I explained to MrBenn, I've taken on another new job (I won't even try to explain my career), so I've been swamped with real-life. But I don't want to abandon this project before it even gets off the ground.

So I think where we stand, after reading what's been written and some PMs with MrBenn, is at the point where we just have to formally decide which territories are in and which are out. MrBenn can't really proceed until then with the gameplay and graphics. I don't intend to impose my will on everyone else, but I suppose I do have to be the final arbiter. So I'll present what I think the territories should be. I do have them grouped in bonus regions, but those regions can and will likely change later. Right now, let's just focus the discussion on whether or not a territory should be included.

In no way do I intend to make any sort of political statement with these selections. Some semi- or formerly autonamous regions I leave off (Hong Kong and Macau) because they seem useless for gameplay. Others I include because I think they will help gameplay, most notably Tibet and Northern Cyprus (which I realize isn't really part of Asia, but it can open up Turkey if it connects to the mainland twice).

Anyway, here are my tentative selections:

RUSSIA: European Russia, Siberia, Ostrov Sakhalin, Kuril Islands, Kamchatka Peninsula (5 territories)
HOLY LAND: Israel, West Bank, Gaza Strip (3 territories)
ARAB STATES: Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq (5 territories)
ARABIAN PENINSULA: Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Yemen, Oman, UAE (6 territories)
CAUCUSUS: Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, North Cyprus (5 territories)
CENTRAL ASIA: Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan (7 territories)
INDIAN SUBCONTINENT: Maldives, Sri Lanka, India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan (6 territories)
SOUTHEAST ASIA: Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia (7 territories)
ISLANDS: Brunei, Borneo, Sumatra, Bali, Java, East Timor, New Guinea, Indonesia, Philippines (9 territories)
ORIENT: China, Mongolia, North Korea, South Korea, Tibet, Taiwan, Japan (7 territories)

That would give us 61 territories if I've done the math right. I don't know what the optimum starting figures are off-hand, but we can adjust with starting neutrals if need be. Also, I kind of like the idea of including Kashmir in some regard. Maybe as a killer neutral, maybe as a +1 autodeploy or maybe as part of the Indian Subcontinent. The proper nature of Kashmir could be discussed later, but if it's included it gives us 62 territories.

For now, ignoring the bonus groupings and the names of the bonus groupings... does anyone have strong opinions on the list above?

[Peter Gibbons]

To explain my thinking a little bit...

I resisted when I first hatched this idea, but I do think Russia needs to be broken up for gameplay purposes. Any other system just isn't going to work.

I don't think Japan needs to be broken up. It shouldn't be its own bonus region and if we break it up and include it with any other region, it will be too unwieldy. Having one Japan territory and connecting it to the Kamchatka Peninsula and South Korea should work well.

I want to have at least one small bonus region. Hence the Holy Land and including both Palestinian regions. Maybe it needs to be done as an inset.

Northern Cyprus isn't in Asia technically, but it can work as a connecting point to Turkey and Israel. It would unlock some of the clutter.

I like the idea of keeping Malaysia as one territory in two different places and keeping it part of the bonus structure on the mainland. It will provide for unique gameplay, as it will be an automatic connecting point to Borneo and Brunei. Plus, Brunei will be an exclave to the Islands region. Could be very interesting in a fog of war game.

The "Indonesia" territory would over all islands not separately included. Part of me thinks we should ditch Bali and include that in the catch-all territory, but we can debate that.

[natty dread]

I've taken on another new job (I won't even try to explain my career

A jack of all trades?

That would give us 61 territories if I've done the math right. I don't know what the optimum starting figures are off-hand, but we can adjust with starting neutrals if need be.

The nearest optimal numbers are 59 and 66. I think it'd be best to go with 59, and have 2 or 3 territories start neutral.

As for your territories, I'd have to see it in a map, I think visually therefore it's hard for me to really comprehend how the map would look from your text alone.

[Unit_2]

I like this idea and map so far, but I would suggest adding in the surroundings to make it feel more realistic.

[SultanOfSurreal]

I think Russia should be a single territory -- all the countries should be one territory.

And if you make Russia a single territory, you get sort of a two-fer -- it means you can omit depicting most of Russia's north and instead show only part of Russia at the top of the map, leaving more room for the other territories.

[skeletonboy]

As for hong kong, vatican city was separated from italy in europa

[Evil DIMwit]

ISLANDS: Brunei, Borneo, Sumatra, Bali, Java, East Timor, New Guinea, Indonesia, Philippines (9 territories)

By 'Borneo' I presume you mean Indonesian Borneo (or Kalimantan). Bali is part of the Lesser Sunda Islands. With Sumatra, Java, Western New Guinea, Sulawesi, and the Maluku Islands you get the main regions of Indonesia as listed in Wikipedia. That's 7. Brunei, East Timor, and the Philippines make 10 for this region, and 62 (or 63) for the whole map.

I think Russia should be a single territory -- all the countries should be one territory.

And if you make Russia a single territory, you get sort of a two-fer -- it means you can omit depicting most of Russia's north and instead show only part of Russia at the top of the map, leaving more room for the other territories.

Merging Russia into one territory brings your territory count down to 57-59 (depending on whether you change Indonesia and/or add Kashmir). That's a safe territory number, without starting anything neutral.

[Peter Gibbons]

As for hong kong, vatican city was separated from italy in europa

But Hong Kong is no longer sovereign. Vatican City is an independent state.

As for the Russia debate, I think that needs to be a focus right now. I leaned toward making it one territory initially, but now I think I see the benefit of Russia being its own bonus region with several territories included. If we make Russia one territory, there are some major connection issues and what do we do about it insofar as a bonus region?

What do people think?

[Evil DIMwit]

What are the connection issues you're seeing with keeping Russia in one piece?

[Peter Gibbons]

Well, you're going to have one territory that borders 7 different territories (if you connect to Japan, which I think you must). And those 7 different territories are likely going to be in at least 3 different bonus regions. So if you keep Russia as a single territory, which bonus region will it fall in? I don't think there's a satisfactory answer to that.

So would we keep it a +1 autodeploy? If we do that, on such a large map (~60 territories), one person could claim Russia early and build on it--particularly in 4-player games or fewer. You'd get the +1 and an additional 5 or so armies. So before anyone would card (I'm thinking flat rate here), you could have around 20 armies on Russia and it would be able to deny three of the bonus regions on the board permanently.

In effect, it's not so much a connection issue per se. It's the fact that there's no real way to make Russia the territory that doesn't dominate the map. But, then again, maybe we want that...

[MrBenn]

Like Mr Gibbons, I've been strapped for time over the past month - I've managed to get half of the basic image done; and present that now only to try and provoke further discussion...