[Abandoned] - Zombie Invasion!

[MarshalNey]

Floorplan idea is nifty, but entirely too confusing. Having 4 different passables and as many impassables (typo on the map, btw) is overkill. Simplify it, having solid borders where there is no connection, and open space where there are. You've still got your floorplan, but we don't have to worry about lots of symbols.

That makes a lot of sense, I was just being artsy and putting in stuff that I thought looked neat rather than thinking practical and readable.

(impassible is also an acceptable spelling... of the adjective anyway, not the made-up noun used in Foundry jargon... so perhaps I'm still in error.)

That, and you can graphically buff out two symbols easier than you can nine..

Er, not quite sure what this last sentence meant... not hip to the jargon, methinks. By 'buff out' symbols, do you mean polish up in later map editions? Again, that argument would make lots of sense.

Starting deployment is far too high. Consider that the territories will pick up +2 autodeploy on turn start, and the player will get 3 more armies. That's 13 armies TO START. I suggest lowering it down to 3 or 4

Hmmm... well, 3 is too low for sure unless I do something else to protect the auto-deploy from a first-turn steal. With open deployment, it's sort of a conundrum... but you're right about 8 being too high, I just grabbed that number without much thought.

I don't think 4 is good enough to discourage attacks completely, either. Some players are willing to do 6-versus-4 attacks. Then again 5 seems to high when we consider the havoc that could be wrought on other players by 10 armies.

No matter which way I go, the order of the drop becomes too advantageous for players who go first. At least with the current setup. I'll have to think on this. Suggestions are welcome.

More Choppers? Seriously? Come on, use some L4D inspiration and have a better territory name.

Well, actually the simplistic repetition was intentional, meant to be mildly amusing. Sort of like "Not Mexico" in the USApocalypse Map. Obviously though it didn't do the trick.

I'm certainly open to other names, I know I have a lot of them and really I want them to be a strength of the map, and add the flavor it needs.

The buildings are too flat compared to the streets, their connectors, and the helipad. Have some fun with it, perhaps take inspiration from Operation Drug War.

Good graphical suggestion- although Operation Drug War isn't my favorite map to view... actually I kind of avoid playing it based on its looks. It sort of reminds me of a bunch of tackleboxes full of brightly colored lures rather than buildings full of items and furniture.

In order to raise the buildings and add more perspective, I'll have to compress the streets, which could cause some headaches, but it'll get done. I probably won't do it right away, however, as I'm pursuing the gameplay and overall feasibility of the map first.


Thanks Tac for taking the time and giving the veteran advice. Very much appreciated. As for the overall rough look, layout, theme and gameplay, does the map hold promise or is it still trying to find its way?

[MarshalNey]

I'd like to see the color coding for your key be more clear... right now if I look at the key it takes me a while to find the same color building on the map...

I'm inclined to agree, the colors are a bit tough to distinguish (yes I did use the color picker). Trouble is partly that I gave the regions a bit of a custom texture afterwards that altered the overall effect slightly. I'll fix it.

The car... in the top left corner for example can security attack the armored car? and then once you hold armored car no other players can attack you through that route? leaving Foyer as the only border? is this correct...

The Armored Car (and the Meat Wagon) can be attacked normally, they don't block routes except by the strength of the armies occupying them. The Armored Car can 1-way attack other safe places on the streets, which cannot attack back, but adjacent territories can attack the Armored Car as normal.

The arsenal... small arms in the top right for example, could bombard blood alley in the bottom left if it wanted to? or ANY street zone correct?
Fuel gives each regular street terr. a +1 auto-deploy or +1 for reinforcements?
Ward... does holding relic (bottom right) give you +1 for holding 4 zones in just that building or any building?

You are correct about the Arsenals. They can bombard anything in the streets, no matter how far away.

Fuel gives +1 reinforcements per 'safe' street territory.

Ward gives +1 reinforcements for 4 zones in any building.

As Natty said, the Items are somewhat powerful, which is why each building has one in it or nearby.

Hope this clarifies things.

[TaCktiX]

Thanks Tac for taking the time and giving the veteran advice. Very much appreciated. As for the overall rough look, layout, theme and gameplay, does the map hold promise or is it still trying to find its way?

Doing me job, and to answer your question, I would highly suggest you submit a design brief on the matter.

[MarshalNey]

OKay, it looks like TopDog has edited the thread rather than making me start a new one (thanks TD).

Anyway, I've been tinkering on the map using the above suggestions and have posted a revised map.

Changes:

Gameplay
-- I put the starting faction values at 4 troops. However, I made them only connect to the territory in the same room, and then made that territory a 3 value neutral to start. This should act as blocker to keep the factions safe from a 1st-turn snatch, but also keep the faction armies from rampaging too far into others' turf before they get a turn. The values might need some adjustment, but I think the idea is sound.

-- I also made the items only connect to the territory in the same room, for consistency.

-- Added 4 Zombie Zones to the streets as 'zombie champions'- Hungry Jack, The Bloat, Rigor Morris and Gangrene Sally (Again, if you find the names painful, I'm very open to suggestions). The 'zombie champions' will be a killer neutral 2, and located at the 4 main intersections.

-- Added 1 indoor Zombie Zone to the Mafia HQ (the Kitchen)

Graphics
-- Simplified the building layouts, took out the 'flavor' accessories

-- Took out most of the impassible and indoor attack route symbols. I left in the staircases for now, they do seem to add a bit to the look I think without making the map confusing.

-- Added some blood splatter to the Zombie Zones

-- Put some texture on the color-codes for the bonus areas in the legend

Feel free to let me know if the changes addressed your concerns adequately and of course if you have any further suggestions.

[b00kw0rm]

I really like it...

Any way to make the items a little more visible? It's kinda hard to find them as it is.

[Industrial Helix]

The number one thing I really dislike about this map are the lack of zombies. I get that the street squares represent the zombies with their killer neutrals, but it doesn't scream end of the world, zombie horrorfest. I'd prefer something more along these lines:



Have all of those start at 1 and revert to 1. Some counting will be necessary to ensure there are fair connections between buildings, but that's only fair. Even better would be if you could do something like the monsters map and have actual zombies, or make an army circle that is an overhead shot of a zombie and use their arms to connect them?

Anyway, I'd rather have hordes of zombies rather than one.

[MarshalNey]

The number one thing I really dislike about this map are the lack of zombies. I get that the street squares represent the zombies with their killer neutrals, but it doesn't scream end of the world, zombie horrorfest. I'd prefer something more along these lines:

I've considered (to a smaller degree) the sort of thing you're proposing, and in the end I opted for the background to convey the 'horde' theme of the map.

Specifically, the above scheme has a lot of 'useless' territories; bob, jerry, will, sean, et al. will never really be used because there are other better ways for players to get where they want to go.

The problem here is that the zombie zones in the streets have to act like gauntlets in order to have the gameplay function I'm looking for. This means that each zombie must be part of a unique linear path in order to have any real functionality. Yes, it is true that redundancy allows multiple players to take the same path without attacking each other; however this effectively makes no difference since players will normally leave only 1 troop on each zombie zone (being killer neutral) so that there would be no advantage to taking a non-conquered route over a conquered one.

If Zombie Neutrals were a reality, the above argument would carry less weight. However, since they might be a long ways off, I'd rather design the map with the Zombie Neutrals in mind, but not to base any large gameplay elements off of the possibilty.

Furthermore, there are several disadvantages to this scheme, not the least of which is that it will clutter the map and destroy any chance for a foggy, dismal look to the streets. And I would have to sacrifice any real thematic support from the zombie zone names (sorry but short first names just don't really add anything for me). While that isn't perhaps any great loss at the moment, it's a look and feel that I'd like to have for a more polished end product.

My biggest objection is the number of territories. I've played the Hive two times now and realized that I don't enjoy super-massive maps, even if in this case it is mostly killer neutrals. I want the gauntlets to be medium in length, not something that requires 30 troops just to cross... I'm not a fan of maps that require massive buildups just to get something done.

On the other hand, I really want to accomodate your concerns; you're right that tons of territories could really scream "here come the hordes".

Have all of those start at 1 and revert to 1. Some counting will be necessary to ensure there are fair connections between buildings, but that's only fair. Even better would be if you could do something like the monsters map and have actual zombies, or make an army circle that is an overhead shot of a zombie and use their arms to connect them?

Anyway, I'd rather have hordes of zombies rather than one.

Modifying the circles could work, it has occured to me...

I'll have to think on the number of zombie zones.... increasing it really pulls the look of the map in the opposite direction of what I'm hoping to create.

Thanks for the quick feedback and food for thought (my brain was starving )

[MarshalNey]

I really like it...

Thanks!

Is there anything in particular that strikes you as worthwhile? When making changes, it's good to know what not to change as well.

Any way to make the items a little more visible? It's kinda hard to find them as it is.

Hmmmm, yes I think a few people have had some trouble finding them, particularly the arsenals in the corners. It's strange to me, since they stand out to my eyes, but then again I made it so I'm probably not a good judge.

Do you think modifying the font (like giving it a bright outline) would do the trick? I already have a symbol by the territory and the army circle has a colored ring, although I could brighten that up too.

Thanks for the feedback- if you have the time feel free to post again, it's much appreciated.

[b00kw0rm]

The artwork is great, and the mood is just right. It also looks like it could get frantic near the end of the game, with everyone making a mad dash to the helipads.

Just a question, is the helipad area a zombified area? It's out in the open, so it should have a negative effect for being there, aka lose # troops per turn due to the zombie attacks.

Currently the items are mostly colorless, and blend in with the pale backgrounds. The van was hard to find because the blue color is pretty close to the gray of the ground. The fuel is the easiest because of the bright color. Not sure the font color would be enough, but it would help. (it's how I found the van). Possibly making the font, tag border, and image border brighter would make it easier.

I like the current amount of spaces between the different buildings, but I agree with 'Comrade' Industrial Helix that it doesn't convey the sense of a massive horde. Maybe draw in a bunch of little zombies in the outside, grouped around each outside space?

I'd also like a way of getting one of the bottommost buildings to the other besides having to go around the entire loop.

[fumandomuerte]

You can try the dungeon crafter 3 to draw your city, You'll just have to add "tileable" textures to the library in order to use them in the program. DC3 uses basically 3 layer levels (floor, objects, walls; bottom to top order) and 2 standard grid sizes, 72x72 pixels for floor tiles and 18x18 pixels for wall frames (it auto-adds a shadow effect to the walls). It's free so you should give it a try.
Download Dungeon Crafter III

P.S. You can get graphics similar to those used on the Siege! and Draknor maps

[b00kw0rm]

I'm not really happy with the purple street connections, but they show up clearly without being too garish.

Make them red. Then it'll look like trails of blood.

[Top Dog]

Personally I like the compromise of having the background representing the horde of zombies... I agree with Marshal that if you added in too many zombie terr. the player would just skip through the terr. they didn't need to pass... Personally I like the amount of terr. now... if you want to add or remove several zombies that'd be find but I think 20 zombies in an area is a big no-no...
other than that I like it... I don't have much time as of now, but maybe I'll take a look later and see if there's anything I can nit-pick on lol... It sounds mean but nit-picking is what get's stuff done... I wish people nit-picked my original map even more tbh

Edit: also, first names as zombie terr. sounds too cheezy to me... keep it simple but not bob or frank or whatever...

[DukeWellington]

Awesome map! I can't wait to play it!

[Top Dog]

Awesome map! I can't wait to play it!

uh oh... you know marshal doesn't like compliments on his map without some criticism as well!

I like how you are showing the zombies in the streets, even though not through territories, but through graphics. Maybe even try adding more, just to really represent the mass of zombies...

I'd say you could try making the street connections a red, although I think the pink/purple would work too...

Other than that it looks solid... Maybe just work on trying to keep the gameplay pretty well balanced, and it seems to be...

I just now noticed the blood spatters... I like the idea but maybe they could be worked on a bit... not anything big... just something I noticed... I was thinking more like blood smears... maybe try adding a few inside an entrance of some of the buildings... just an idea of course...

[MarshalNey]

The artwork is great, and the mood is just right. It also looks like it could get frantic near the end of the game, with everyone making a mad dash to the helipads.

Thanks for giving me the positives... it helps to know what people like. A mad dash for the helipads is hopefully what we'll get if this makes it to Beta

Just a question, is the helipad area a zombified area? It's out in the open, so it should have a negative effect for being there, aka lose # troops per turn due to the zombie attacks.

That's actually a great idea. I knew I couldn't make them zombified, because you can't hold a killer neutral for a victory objective or bonus. A decay would do the trick.

Currently the items are mostly colorless, and blend in with the pale backgrounds... Possibly making the font, tag border, and image border brighter would make it easier.

I'll get on that.

I like the current amount of spaces between the different buildings, but I agree with 'Comrade' Industrial Helix that it doesn't convey the sense of a massive horde. Maybe draw in a bunch of little zombies in the outside, grouped around each outside space?

Sounds like a good suggestion, even if it doesn't satisfy Helix completely it's a step in the right direction.


Here's a quick and dirty sample of what I've been fiddling with, let me know if you think it's the right way to go:

I'd also like a way of getting one of the bottommost buildings to the other besides having to go around the entire loop.

Heh, I've been thinking about the routes. I like how the streets are cut in half by the barricade, but the Academy might be a little too secure down in that corner. I'm not sure yet if I need to change the routes or add an entrance to the Ghetto on that side.

[MarshalNey]

I like how you are showing the zombies in the streets, even though not through territories, but through graphics. Maybe even try adding more, just to really represent the mass of zombies...

It could use a few more, couldn't it? I'll get on that.

I'd say you could try making the street connections a red, although I think the pink/purple would work too...

Make them red. Then it'll look like trails of blood

Yes... I think maybe trying to make the connections into blood trails rather than purplish veins might work. I'll see what I can whip up.

I just now noticed the blood spatters... I like the idea but maybe they could be worked on a bit... not anything big... just something I noticed... I was thinking more like blood smears... maybe try adding a few inside an entrance of some of the buildings... just an idea of course...

You just noticed the blood spatters? Oh dear, I'll have to use more

If I make the connections into blood trails, then having a smear lead inside would only be natural- I'll see how it looks.

I'll take a look later and see if there's anything I can nit-pick on lol... It sounds mean but nit-picking is what get's stuff done...

Truer words were never spoken. Thanks for taking the time to nitpick, keep it coming.

[MarshalNey]

Awesome map! I can't wait to play it!

Ah, Duke... thanks for popping in and taking a look. Is there anything specifically that you like about the map? If I could only keep one thing, what would your vote be?

I really appreciate the feedback and hope to hear more of your opinions (hopefully in the near future )

[b00kw0rm]

I notice that there's a room called Fire Escape in the bottom-center. You could make the fire-escape one of the exits to connect that building to the bottom-right.

[MarshalNey]

Yes.... you're right, that's a perfect spot for an entrance. I originally had one there in fact, then took it out ages ago. Guess I might end up adding it back in... whoops

[Memnon]

Marshal, I've read all the notes here and think you're on the right track. A few points I'd like to touch on, and maybe some help on names...

1. Stategos - while I didn't originally have any issue with the name, after someone else mentioned it, I don't like it much either. It's supposed to be the academy building yes? So here's a few name options. Professors, Mad Scientists (you find more of these than mad doctors, but then you're finding another name for them...meh), Nerds! (admit it...we all are), The engineers? Just a few thoughts for you to mull and take you in a different direction than staregos...

2. Don't think about Bad/Good groups, I agree with TD in the fact that they should remain in the gray and not take the road to Disney.

3. Helicopter pad - I like the helicopter idea, but bigger. I know scale is all wrong, but I'd like to see a chopper that takes up the space of 1/4 of the pad. You know, about as big as one section, but maybe positioned in between two, like the middle of the bottom section would be a good spot to drop one. Good luck on the graphical end of that...I'm no help there.

4. More zombies on the street - I couldn't agree more. You say it's too busy, and cramped Marshal, I disagree. I think if you added a few more here and there it would be fine. Maybe give us an example (do you still have the old paint file laying around?). More zombies, more blood. It doesn't feel like a horde yet - more like a small gaming group gone wrong.

5. The building walls are fine in my opinion. I've seen some maps before where the defining lines were difficult and I couldn't tell if I could be attacked or not. Here, you can tell. I think attempting to redefining the walls would be overly critical at this point. (But gods do something about that purple line in the streets! We hates it precious)

Ok Marshal, you've convinced me once again to put time and effort into the map your designing. This is what I can give you for now, I'll check back in later.

Memnon

[MarshalNey]

...So here's a few name options. Professors, Mad Scientists (you find more of these than mad doctors, but then you're finding another name for them...meh), Nerds! (admit it...we all are), The engineers? Just a few thoughts for you to mull and take you in a different direction than staregos...

'Staregos'? Sounds like a futuristic brand of snack food.... mmmmm... pass the staregos, honey.

Anyway, you're right of course. "Strategos" was sort of a fill-in name to get the idea across, until the creative juices came up with something better. Unfortunately, my juices aren't flowing like they ought....

"Professors" and "Nerds" don't sound mighty enough to win against a pack of arthritic nuns, let alone a horde of undead... I dunno. "Intellectacons" is my best brainstorm idea... sure, they might come from outer space, but they're more than meets the eye (sigh)

2. Don't think about Bad/Good groups, I agree with TD in the fact that they should remain in the gray and not take the road to Disney.

Duly noted, I concur... it was just a novel thought that tickled me.

3. Helicopter pad - I like the helicopter idea, but bigger. I know scale is all wrong, but I'd like to see a chopper that takes up the space of 1/4 of the pad. You know, about as big as one section, but maybe positioned in between two, like the middle of the bottom section would be a good spot to drop one...

Hmmm... I'll put it on my list of' possible to do's... I'm really not as concerned about the graphical polishing as getting the concept and general look first, so this will probably wait until I get the zombies themselves positioned to everyone's satisfaction.

4. More zombies on the street - I couldn't agree more. You say it's too busy, and cramped Marshal, I disagree. I think if you added a few more here and there it would be fine. Maybe give us an example (do you still have the old paint file laying around?). More zombies, more blood. It doesn't feel like a horde yet - more like a small gaming group gone wrong.

Heh, gaming group you say? I guess one of them found the Necronomicon and decided to use it for LARPing...

Anyway, I get that Helix, et al., want the streets flooded with zombie territories. I just like how the gameplay stands right now, and I'd hate to mess around with it just for looks- after all, isn't that what graphics are for? If I knew that these suggestions were for gameplay reasons, rather than image, I'd be more inclined to yield on this point. On the other hand, as I pointed out in a previous post, I really can't increase the territories as dramatically as Helix wanted, because most of them would serve almost no gameplay purpose whatsoever and would sacrifice a great deal of potential flavor.

At best, I could perhaps double the number of zombie territories in the streets and still keep some semblance of flavor and gameplay.

I'm working on adding flavor graphics with bloody trails for routes and small depictions of zombies, although it's going slowly so I may have to just sumbit a revision that is less than decent just to keep everyone in the loop.

If anyone cares to comment on the sample that I posted, at least as far as the format goes (too small, too confusing, not enough, etc.) I would be most grateful.

Ok Marshal, you've convinced me once again to put time and effort into the map your designing. This is what I can give you for now, I'll check back in later.

Much appreciated, M-non. Thanks for the specific feedback. May I suggest that you check out some other maps while you're strolling the forum? All of the mapmakers here are pretty receptive to any kind of comment (except for "you suck," I suppose, but that's hardly surprising )

[Memnon]

whoops -

I only read the first page, then noticed just after I hit submit that there were 3 pages of notes, one of which was your updated "zombie" look. Too small in my opinion. In the blown up picture you can barely see what they are, some people play on screens smaller than my 22" monstrosity, so I can't imagine them getting the graphical beauty from those tiny zombies.

I'm not asking you to put in dozens of zombies in between like Helix, I agree that would take too much away from game play - especially since you're making them killer neutrals (and then zombie neutrals later on....oh what problems you'd have then...eek!). But double might be something to play around with. It's not exactly game-play related, but not just graphical either....more map flavor I suppose. Like I said, it doesn't have the "zombie hordes" feel yet - game-play wise.

Staregos....I'm not allowed a typo from time to time?

I'd love to see the current sample (and maybe the old one?? via email??) - and don't use "intellectacons", oof; let's see if we can come up with something better first, like dork butt central - anything is better than Intellectacons.

[b00kw0rm]

How about "Tacticians"?

[TaCktiX]

How about "Tacticians"?

I like it, I like it! [/self-effacingcomment]

As for the new zombie horde, I don't think there are enough. Have the horde surrounding the entire army circle and it should be good.

[CaronylKluster]

I think your making precise improvements that polish the map. I hope to see this in the queue soon.