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[Abandoned] - Second Indochina War

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Re: The Second Indochina War (please provide feedback)

Postby Riskismy on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:04 pm

Hey FarangDemon,

I hope you were serious when you thanked me for 'keeping at it' - because I intend to ;)

First, I'd like to thank you right back for taking my concerns into consideration!

I've been looking and thinking on this map, and I just don't understand what it is you want from these support territories. While making them all private was certainly an improvement over the previous, the current is really just another kind of auto-deploy to the leaders (not counting tet offensive).
If balanced to perfection, you might as well just give each leader a normal +2 bonus. I just don't see how they add significantly to the gameplay. Sorry to be blunt, but they're just not fun.

I think there would be more to the idea if they were all contested. Whether there's 4, 8 or just a single support territory, the tension of the map would increase manifold if they were somehow all contested.

Godspeed!
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Re: The Second Indochina War (please provide feedback)

Postby FarangDemon on Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:14 am

Riskismy wrote:Hey FarangDemon,

I hope you were serious when you thanked me for 'keeping at it' - because I intend to ;)

First, I'd like to thank you right back for taking my concerns into consideration!


Of course I'm serious. You raised several valid concerns, prompting me to reevaluate things. It helped me improve the map during a period when nobody else gave any feedback.

Riskismy wrote:I've been looking and thinking on this map, and I just don't understand what it is you want from these support territories.


In case you didn't read it, I described the purpose in the post linked below. I think it got buried in the jumble after threads were merged. To sum it up, the private bonus is an alternate path to a bonus for a player whose drop is not conducive to obtaining a regional bonus. So it mitigates against the negative outcome of a bad drop.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&f=241&p=3078012#pr3075329

Riskismy wrote:I think there would be more to the idea if they were all contested. Whether there's 4, 8 or just a single support territory, the tension of the map would increase manifold if they were somehow all contested.


It sounds fun and exciting in theory, but I see drawbacks.

I think a bonus that you are not allowed to attack out from, but which can be attacked is kind of sucky and unfun in my opinion. (reason for one-way attacks is to not allow one faction leader to take out somebody else's faction leader in early stage of play)

Also, along with a greater degree of head-to-head fighting in the first round comes the reality that the game will be decided sooner. I prefer a longer game.

Plus, in 3-7 player games, having contested support bonuses would increase the advantage that can be obtained by a good drop - i.e. you have an advantage if the faction leader(s) that could assault your bonus start as neutral compared to a player whose bonus is contested by human players.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (please provide feedback)

Postby FarangDemon on Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:03 pm

I'm not planning on introducing anything else to this map or making further adjustments unless there is further feedback. I'm happy with the way it is and would like some feedback from the foundry admins regarding whether the gameplay is acceptable.

Please let me know if there is anything else I can do to expedite this. I know the graphics are rough - but I was hoping to make progress on gameplay and since grifftron is away, I had to do the adjustments myself, and I'm not a graphics guy.

If no one from foundry is willing to consider the gameplay until further graphical refinements are made, please let me know and I'll look for a replacement for grifftron.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:35 pm

Hello Farang, interesting updates that you've added, and thanks for a good first post (except use bigimg tags there too!), it helped me get up to speed quickly.

OK, here's the good:
(1) I dig the build-a-bonus for the 'continents'. With the regional power centers, all is well for the drop. And since each faction leads to a power center, doubly cool from a historical/thematic angle.

(2) I like the neutral values listed explicitly on the map. I think maps are made without foggy games in mind, which is unfriendly for map newcomers. Kudos for this :)

Now for my concerns:
(1) The faction 'private' bonus (?). I'll call them faction "researches" because they remind me of tech in the Research & Conquer map. Thanks to Riskismy for eliciting a restatement of your purpose for these bonuses, as indeed the explanation was lost in the jumble. You're using these bonuses to mitigate bad drops for a particular faction, yes?

What I didn't like immediately upon seeing them a month ago was how it somehow vastly complicated what I felt was a moderately complex map depicting a ridiculously complex war. In other words, I thought that before these bonuses were added, the map was a triumph for simplifying a very complex war into a nevertheless credible and playable model. With them, the map seems much more "dense" upon a first look.

However, if these bonuses can be portrayed in a non-busy manner, then they might add to the map's gameplay by providing the buffer from poor drops that you intend. Otherwise, I think that the map is losing more in ease of playability than it is gaining in gameplay balance.

You stated that you weren't a graphics person, and I sympathize as I'm a slow learner when it comes to that stuff as well ;) But as it stands, I'm modestly concerned from a gameplay layout standpoint. Simple things that you could do to ease up the cramped feel would be to shorten some of the names. For instance, "US Public" or "US Support" might not be as explicit as "US Public Opinion", but it doesn't really need to be as the name is flavor text and not essential to understanding the map.

On a mechanical note, these bonuses seem mostly okay, except that US Public Opinion is strangely one less neutral than the other two that give a +2 bonus, and Ho Chi Minh has one more option than every other faction leader (Tet Offensive). If the goal is to enhance gameplay balance, I think these two things should be scrutinized.

(2) The drop for 2 and 3 player games is listed as 18. Is there any way we could avoid this? Not absolutely essential, but if the tert number could adjusted to a more friendly number (see gameplay sticky at the top for golden numbers) it'd make me happier.

(3) The Ho Chi Minh Trail. This is just bound to cause confusion as it stands. The idea is fine, but there needs to be a better way to communicate it without ambiguity. "In the direction of the arrow" isn't clear to me in that is it in the strict sense, or are we talking the general direction? Actually would it be a problem to just say that you can attack 2 spaces along the trail only, and thus elimate the need for direction?

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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby FarangDemon on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:08 am

Thanks Marshal! I really appreciate your feedback. Some of your concerns will require time for me and a graphics partner to fix. For others, I'd like you to read my explanation and decide if your concerns are alleviated:

(1) Private Bonus clutters map

I'm glad you understand and appreciate the value it contributes to mitigating against bad drops. Regarding improving clarity, I'll shorten the names and look for someone to pick up the graphics of the map, as that is out of my intended sphere of action.

Why does US Public have one less neutral than other +2 private bonuses?

It can be assaulted by Tet Offensive, whereas all other private bonuses are safe. Even so, I don't feel so strongly about this, so if you would still prefer I change the value to be in line with the other +2 private bonuses, I'll do so.

Why does Ho Chi Minh have extra Tet Offensive assault option?

There are two justifications for allowing Ho Chi Minh the Tet Offensive assault option:

    (i) He has the least access to bombardment out of all the other Faction Leaders (measured as distance to nearest plane).
    (ii) He is also the must vulnerable to bombardment, as his entire country is bombardable.

Taking these justifications into consideration, I hope you think we can include it, as this was a defining event of the war. In any event, can tweak the Tet Offensive neutral starting value as you see fit. So if you think Ho Chi Minh is overpowered, we can nerf it.

(2) 18 starting territories for 2-3 player games

I understand your concern and will try to change this in future version.

(3) Ho Chi Minh Trail intended directionality ambiguous

We could eliminate the directionality of the range 2 attack, but I don't think we'd be doing full justice to the war if we allowed south-to-north movement bonus, as the North Vietnamese used the Ho Chi Minh Trail to infiltrate into the south and not vice-versa. I feel very strongly about this, and I think the intended movement scheme would not be intrinsically hard to understand for someone who plays this game.

So please let me know how you think we should describe it - nobody has been happy with my explanations.
I can think of another way to convey this without using arrows, but I think it is more complex than using arrows:

We could put a symbol indicating Ho Chi Minh Trail followed by a letter or number on each region:

In the legend, we state that "HCMT x one-way assaults HCMT x+2".
It is only necessary to state this, as HCMT x and x+1 would be adjacent.

    I.e Quang Binh is 1, Khammouane is 2, Xepon is 3, Quang Tri and Attapeu are 4...


Either way, I think anybody who plays this game should be able to understand the intended directionality-contingent concept.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby Riskismy on Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:37 pm

Just for the record, I still think having the support terts contested allows for more options and a more intense experience. Your phrasing that it 'contributes to mitigating against bad drops' is faulty, since they're private. Thus, it's of no consequence how many players are in the game or how they drop - they would each get access to one support tert only.
However, your argument that making them contested would increase the chance of an unfair drop is an excellent one, and why I'm dropping the issue (hate that even more than bad dice).
Of course, that leaves the question: Why have them in the first place? Like I said in my previous post, they'd be little else than another auto-deploy to the leader.

Re: HTMT:
How about using the north/south denotion like you did in your post? Something like 'regions on the trail can attack southwards 2 territories'.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:17 am

OK, I see now why US Public Opinion is lower, missed that under the Tet Offensive, whoops.

FarangDemon wrote:Taking these justifications into consideration, I hope you think we can include it, as this was a defining event of the war. In any event, can tweak the Tet Offensive neutral starting value as you see fit. So if you think Ho Chi Minh is overpowered, we can nerf it.


I agree that Tet was huge for the US involvement in the war, just as PPP Falls was for the French involvement.

Actually, at 8 neutral though, it might be a non-factor in many games. I like the -1 penalty, it shows how draining the Tet Offensive was to their forces, especially the experienced troops. How about getting rid of the Russian Aid altogether and lowering the neutral value for Tet?

Really, as it stands Ho Chi Minh can have two private bonuses (US Public Opinion and Russian Aid), plus one-way attack nearly all of S. Vietnam. That seems like too much, even considering the bombing missions, because Tet allows Ho Chi Minh to take areas outside of N. Vietnam anyway.

If you lower Tet to say 4 or 5 neutral, then Ho Chi Minh is the leader with no inherent bonus but lots of attack options. I like that because it brings Tet into play more, makes it more central to the map's gameplay, and at the same time without Russian Aid I think it's relatively balanced with the other leaders as long as it keeps that -1 penalty.

-----------------

For the Ho Chi Minh Trail, I realized another thing that was bothering me- arrows are traditionally used to indicate a one-way attack in CC maps. There's a potential for players to think that Atiapeu can attack the North Central Highlands but not vice versa, for instance.

How about this:
(1) Introduce a Compass Rose. They're never used, so this would be a first to have it a part of the gameplay. But you already used the terms "North" and "South" in the bombing missions, so why not? True, you could substitute the terms "Upper" and "Lower", but this wouldn't be useful for the Ho Chi Minh explanation.

(2) Make sure that all of the parts of the trail (intended attack direction of the trail) point at a downward angle, the more exaggerated the better. Certainly some of the areas where the trail is nearly horizontal there is room to bias it for a downward tilt; as long as it's noticeable it will do.

(3) Replace the arrows with something else, for instance trap doors, holes, caves, anything to indicate an endpoint without making it seem like a normal one-way attack symbol. Alternatively, if you can make the HCMT thicker, you may get away with squeezing arrows inside the tunnel, in which case I would use them copiously (every region if possible).

(4) Rewrite the explanation to say:
"Regions along the Ho Chi Minh Trail may assault each other at range 2 in a southern direction (towards trapdoors)."
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby FarangDemon on Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:15 pm

Thanks very much both MarshalNey and riskismy.

We are going to:

    Remove Russian Aid
    Lower Tet to 5 neutral
    Change "US Public Opinion" to "US Public"
    Change "Ravens (FAC)s" to "Ravens"
    Change "US Military Advisors" to "US Advisors"
    Change "US Airbase Construction" to "US Bases"
    Remove arrows from HCMT and put a trapdoor or other symbol on all HCMT terminus points (My Tho, Iron Triangle, 1st Cav Div, Quang Tri, North Central Highlands)
    Change text to "Regions along the Ho Chi Minh Trail may assault each other at range 2 in a southern direction (towards trapdoors)."
    Add a compass rose (so people will know which way is south)
    Remove the text I had added saying "+1 autodeploy" for leaders. There is no autodeploy anymore.


I've updated the initial post with all these updates to game play, and also added two more neutrals so that in a 2 or 3-player game, players start with 17 instead of 18 regions.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby grifftron on Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:59 pm

Here you go FD....

Not sure how that little mountain got out in the middle of no where, prob when i was moving things around, but if this gets into gameplay I will do a full revamp on this map graphic wise. Plus i think ill take this map down a notch size wise, i think i could fit all of this in on the old sizes we had on CC

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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby FarangDemon on Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:20 pm

Thanks, grifftron!

Just a few things that I think we should change:

1) US Public and US Bases are both +2 bonuses
2) I'm pretty sure MarshalNey's suggestion is to keep the HCMT graphical depiction by connected lines AND add trapdoors. So I think only remove the directional arrows on the trail that I had added, but keep the trail itself.
3) For the trapdoor icon you chose - maybe you can change it from being an icon with white circle halo to just being the door itself attached to the endpoints of the HCMT. That way everybody will know automatically that it has to do with the HCMT.
4) You can adjust the graphic in the legend that describes HCMT to depict a small segment of the trail that ends in the trapdoor.
5) If possible, I think putting the title on the top might be better
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby grifftron on Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:46 am

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remember this is just for gameplay, graphics WILL change...

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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:22 pm

I'm digging the Ho Chi Minh Trail now (wait, that sounds odd :? )

Looking good, I think the gameplay framework and elements are working well together and it seems balanced.

On the clarity side, it's a 100 times better! Just a few minor things...
(1) make sure to put the '5' for the neutral value in the 'US Public' box. (really minor I know)
(2) If it's not too much trouble, show the '888's so I can be sure that they'll fit.
(3) Put a legend somewhere to indicate impassible terrain (the rivers, jungles and mountains)
(4) The phrase "Territory they assault and are assaulted by" isn't attached to anything at the moment. I think it might work nicely to just put an arrow on either side of that instruction pointing to the 'US Advisors" and 'US Public' boxes to give a couple of examples.

I'm going to circulate a query among my fellow CAs to see if they have any insights or questions, hopefully a stamp will be coming soon.

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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby FarangDemon on Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:29 am

Thanks, grifftron! Looking good. I've updated the link in the OP.

MarshalNey wrote:I'm digging the Ho Chi Minh Trail now (wait, that sounds odd :? )


Yeah that does sound odd. Whose side are you on anyway? :D

MarshalNey wrote:(4) The phrase "Territory they assault and are assaulted by" isn't attached to anything at the moment. I think it might work nicely to just put an arrow on either side of that instruction pointing to the 'US Advisors" and 'US Public' boxes to give a couple of examples.


Yeah I realized it was a bit clumsy when I wrote that. In addition to adding arrows pointing left and right, I think if we bring it down to be on the same line as those region names, it will be even better.

MarshalNey wrote:I'm going to circulate a query among my fellow CAs to see if they have any insights or questions, hopefully a stamp will be coming soon.

-- Marshal Ney


Mucho awesome!
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby grifftron on Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:17 pm

Image

this was the 630x600 small size, it is looking pretty small! some of those terts are at least... anyone have any suggestions? dont want to move on until i can make sure these 888's fit in the size we are keeping on the small size.


edit* i was thinking about putting the leaders on one of the sides, kinda like a lunar war layout


-griff
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:18 pm

The 888s look fine, I'm mostly worried about the readability of the legend at this size.

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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby grifftron on Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:20 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:The 888s look fine, I'm mostly worried about the readability of the legend at this size.

-Sully


I THINK the key would be fine, we didnt have huge keys on this one anyways... and i had them all blown up on that supersized map, i was just worried about fitting the 888's + the tert names + any symbols we have on some of those little terts.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:22 pm

grifftron wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:The 888s look fine, I'm mostly worried about the readability of the legend at this size.

-Sully


I THINK the key would be fine, we didnt have huge keys on this one anyways... and i had them all blown up on that supersized map, i was just worried about fitting the 888's + the tert names + any symbols we have on some of those little terts.

Might be nice to see anyhow. Gameplay clarity is part of the requirements for the stamp, so I figure it's best to be safe.

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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby grifftron on Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:27 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
grifftron wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:The 888s look fine, I'm mostly worried about the readability of the legend at this size.

-Sully


I THINK the key would be fine, we didnt have huge keys on this one anyways... and i had them all blown up on that supersized map, i was just worried about fitting the 888's + the tert names + any symbols we have on some of those little terts.

Might be nice to see anyhow. Gameplay clarity is part of the requirements for the stamp, so I figure it's best to be safe.

-Sully



yea just dont want to resize everything until i know those terts would be accepted by these mods, if its not maybe they will want us to upsize, then i get er done.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:31 pm

grifftron wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:
grifftron wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:The 888s look fine, I'm mostly worried about the readability of the legend at this size.

-Sully


I THINK the key would be fine, we didnt have huge keys on this one anyways... and i had them all blown up on that supersized map, i was just worried about fitting the 888's + the tert names + any symbols we have on some of those little terts.

Might be nice to see anyhow. Gameplay clarity is part of the requirements for the stamp, so I figure it's best to be safe.

-Sully



yea just dont want to resize everything until i know those terts would be accepted by these mods, if its not maybe they will want us to upsize, then i get er done.

Sounds fine.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:18 pm

grifftron wrote:Image

this was the 630x600 small size, it is looking pretty small! some of those terts are at least... anyone have any suggestions? dont want to move on until i can make sure these 888's fit in the size we are keeping on the small size.



Numbers fit here, but when you add territory labels... maybe not.

My advice is, before you go for supersize, maybe you can try to fudge up the borders of the smallest territories just slightly so that both the label & number fit in them. Don't worry about coastal territories, for those you can always put the label on the side of the territory.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby FarangDemon on Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:35 pm

natty_dread wrote:
Numbers fit here, but when you add territory labels... maybe not.

My advice is, before you go for supersize, maybe you can try to fudge up the borders of the smallest territories just slightly so that both the label & number fit in them. Don't worry about coastal territories, for those you can always put the label on the side of the territory.


That's good advice. But I don't think there is much room to fudge borders in two places

  • 1) Central Laos 888 "Long Tieng" (it has mountains along S and E border), the neighbors are too small to steal space from them. And we can't just get rid of it by merging it with a neighbor, as having Long Tieng is necessary to provide a 2 territory buffer between Vientiane and Houaphan.

    We could shorten the name from "Long Tieng" to "LT".

  • 2) Iron Triangle and Saigon. Would be a shame if these got merged, taking away from the excitement of invading Saigon through the tunnel system.

    Maybe shortening some names here will help a bit, too
      Change "Iron Triangle" to "CCT", explain on legend it means "Cu Chi Tunnels"
      Change "1st Cavalry Division" to "1st Cav Div" or just "1st Cav"
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby grifftron on Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:58 pm

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i think it all will fit in perfectly once i mess with the boarders some more on those small terts like natty said, then ill have to put the key and leaders on and see how the map looks small version wise, the large version would have no problem at all. What do you guys think of this one?
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby FarangDemon on Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:12 am

I still recommend use "CCT" instead of "Iron Triangle" as it's pretty cramped.
I think use "LT" for "Long Tieng" as well.
"1st Cavalry" looks ok but I think it's generally referred to as "1st Cav Div" for short.
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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby grifftron on Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:55 am

FarangDemon wrote:I still recommend use "CCT" instead of "Iron Triangle" as it's pretty cramped.
I think use "LT" for "Long Tieng" as well.
"1st Cavalry" looks ok but I think it's generally referred to as "1st Cav Div" for short.


I think Long Tieng will be fine spelled out, and just like Thailand, if it fits, the mods will make us spell it out, but i changed both the other ones... here is another update, large version 840x800

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i think this covers all that was suggested up until now gameplay wise

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Re: The Second Indochina War (Ready for Graphics?)

Postby MarshalNey on Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:59 pm

The tunnel is looking even better with the transparency. And yes, this looks like all of the suggestions are incorporated in the large, excellent work =D> Except for the "Territory they assault and are assaulted by" instruction which is still a bit of a non sequiter.

A minor thought that had slipped my mind from sometime back, it might be better (and there seems to be space for this) to say "Northern N Viet" and "Southern N Viet" for the bombing areas on Operations Linebacker and Rolling Thunder. No sweat if it doesn't fit, just makes it a bit clearer.

Beyond that, I'll be waiting to see the 888's stuck on the small map (all of them) and the legend, which I'm also a bit concerned about. If it just doesn't work, I think a little extra room won't be a problem to arrange for this map.

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