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[Abandoned] Tokyo

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Re: Tokyo

Postby shakeycat on Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:18 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:I think I see a little resemblance of your Puget Sound map in this :)


Puget sound is tisha's ;)


Well duh :oops: long day.


Hard to tell apart, women are ;)

In the parks - great.

Noted on the colours. I see in the vischeck that the green and yellow areas all appear in the same colour set, so I will absolutely be changing those colours.
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Re: Tokyo

Postby MarshalNey on Mon May 23, 2011 1:12 am

I've got quite a few comments to share on this map (and like Evil D's maps, I'm aware and apologize for the delayed review). I'll post them tomorrow. I will say here, however, that the one thing that strikes me after analyzing this map was that in all games except 7 or 8 players, each player is guaranteed at least one bonus to start with... which is kind of different, and may not be a bad idea if structured properly.

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Re: Tokyo

Postby MarshalNey on Tue May 24, 2011 12:55 am

Okay here's my count on the map breakdown, correct me if I'm in error:
    23 Suburban regions
    26 Old Tokyo regions
    30 Central Tokyo regions
These give a +1 bonus for every 5 regions of the same type.

There are 9 landmarks, some of which appear to be a part of a bonus area and some which are possibly not.
Hold any 3 for a +2 bonus.

I'm counting 88 total deployable regions (these do not count the neutral parks). If this is correct, then:
    2 or 3 player games deploy 29 to each player, with 1 neutral
    4 player games deploy 22 to each player
    5 player games deploy 17 to each player, with 3 neutral
    6 player games deploy 14 to each player, with 4 neutral
    7 player games deploy 12 to each player, with 4 neutral
    8 player games deploy 11 to each player

Furthermore, with the bonus structures as they currently stand,
    a deployment of 25 or more regions guarantees at least 3 bonuses of some kind
    a deployment of 20 or more regions guarantees at least 2 bonuses of some kind
    a deployment of 15 or more regions guarantees at least 1 bonus of some kind

Combining the two lists, this means that in 2- or 3-player games, each player will drop at least 3 bonuses; in 4-player games they will drop at least 2 bonuses; and in 5-player games, each player will drop at least 1 bonus. For 6 players, the odds are very high but not guaranteed for dropping a bonus.

In addition, there are many small bonus areas that consist of 2 or 3 regions. They appear to be Katsushika, Setagaya, Kita, Arakawa, Sumida, and Shinagawa. All of them except the last give a +1 bonus (Shinagawa gives +2).

Incidentally, some of this information (if accurate anyway; if inaccurate please correct it for me) should make its way on to the First Post when feasible.

.....................

OK, my thoughts on this map...

I'm liking the undercurrent I'm seeing in this map, which is fast, intense gameplay despite being a large (~100 region) map. It's hard for me to get thrilled about city maps anymore as there are quite few on CC, but this one looks well deserving of a draft stamp.

Although many times we gameplay CAs are fighting to eliminate bonuses on the drop, it's really the possibility for a gross imbalance between sides that we're trying to avoid. So dropping a bonus could theoretically work for a map, if the drops were relatively fair all around. This map seems to be aiming for such a goal in its present form.

If you intend for the overall gameplay to follow this idea, it probably won't be easy but it would lend a bit of uniqueness that may make the effort worthwhile. If the ubiquitous bonus-dropping is simply accidental, then perhaps we can look at how to restructure the bonuses or use some well-placed neutrals.

If you're following the Bonus Drop idea may I suggest:
    (1) Consider lowering the bonus for the Landmarks from +2 for 3 to +1 for 3
    (2) Perhaps raise the build-a-bonus to +1 for 4 regions of the same type, so that even 8 players games will involve dropping a bonus. This would however make the randomness in the drop more volatile, but it's something to consider.
    (3) For flavor, maybe refer to the +1 for 5 (or 4) regions as a "population bonus" perhaps, something to give support to the idea of dropping bonuses (like the high population density and strong culture of the city)

If you're leaning toward a No-Bonus Drop idea may I suggest:
    (1) Keeping the +1 for 5 region bonus, except that it gets "activated" only when a player holds a type of region that starts neutral. Napoleonic Europe and the 2nd Indo-China War (currently in Graphics) are examples of this. An ideal type of region that already exists on the map are the parks, but I'm not sure how much sense it makes (I guess I can see it, if we're talking holding a park to activate a "culture bonus") Another type of region that works much better thematically would be the Landmark, which brings me to...
    (2) Make the Landmarks neutral. Keep the +2 for 3 bonus, and possibly make it so that they 'activate' the build-a-bonus of +1 for 5 regions.

For either idea, I suggest:
(1) Looking hard at all of those 2- and 3-region bonus areas, particularly Shinagawa which should probably be only a +1 bonus for 3. Can some of them be consolidated into larger bonus areas? If not, they probably need at least 1 neutral in them, or an added region or two.

Finally, some graphical and clarity concerns:
    (1) The Landmarks are unclear in many ways, although they do look very nice and I think they lend a good supporting element to the map. It's just that the connections with other regions are hard to discern in some cases (like the Fuji TV Station for instance) and their status as a part of a bonus area (or counting toward the build-a-bonus) or not is uncertain. For example are Tokyo U and the Tokyo Dome part of their bonus area, while some of the other landmarks are not?
    (2) The colors get duplicated for bonus areas within the same build-a-bonus area; although they are separated from each other and so avoids some confusion, if possible some difference in color would be handy. I know that there are only so many discernible shades of yellow, green or electric purple, but I'm just asking that the duplicated colors be kept to a minimum.
    (3) Finally, the dark green areas of the Suburbs are a mystery to me. There are a lot of 1-region names but no listed bonus for them... do they only contribute to the build-a-bonus? If so, that should be noted somewhere on the first post and eventually the legend.

Hope this helps, and I know that it's a lot and that you may need some time to get an update going and such. I'm eager to see how this map turns out :)

-- Marshal Ney
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Re: Tokyo

Postby shakeycat on Tue May 24, 2011 4:44 pm

Thank you Marshal!

About the graphical/clarity ..
1. I agree that the landmarks are inconsistent. Will fix. Fuji TV is supposed to be in Odaiba, will move it so it is clearer. Tokyo U and Tokyo Dome seem to be the only things going on in their respective areas of the city, which is why they aren't within another territory. Of course, the "why" doesn't quite explain "how" I'm going to fix this ;)
2. The colours as they stand are actually colourblind unfriendly (green and yellow are same), so they will change. Understood on keeping duplicates to a minimum.
3. The dark green areas - these are wards which are part of the build-a-bonus, but do not have their own bonuses. The ones near Nakano are all a little awkward, shoved up against the side of the map like that (will have to stretch Suginami out a bit more), but others like Adachi and Edogawa are strategically placed, so I didn't feel right just greying them all out. Plus I wanted to represent as many wards as I could - I think I'm just one short, something below Shinagawa. Nakano I'll look again and see if I can divide somehow. Will make note in legend of these outlying suburban wards.

As for Bonus drops or no-bonus drops - this is going to take a little more digestion :)
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Re: Tokyo

Postby MarshalNey on Fri May 27, 2011 4:29 am

shakeycat wrote:Thank you Marshal!

About the graphical/clarity ..
1. I agree that the landmarks are inconsistent. Will fix. Fuji TV is supposed to be in Odaiba, will move it so it is clearer. Tokyo U and Tokyo Dome seem to be the only things going on in their respective areas of the city, which is why they aren't within another territory. Of course, the "why" doesn't quite explain "how" I'm going to fix this ;)
2. The colours as they stand are actually colourblind unfriendly (green and yellow are same), so they will change. Understood on keeping duplicates to a minimum.
3. The dark green areas - these are wards which are part of the build-a-bonus, but do not have their own bonuses. The ones near Nakano are all a little awkward, shoved up against the side of the map like that (will have to stretch Suginami out a bit more), but others like Adachi and Edogawa are strategically placed, so I didn't feel right just greying them all out. Plus I wanted to represent as many wards as I could - I think I'm just one short, something below Shinagawa. Nakano I'll look again and see if I can divide somehow. Will make note in legend of these outlying suburban wards.

As for Bonus drops or no-bonus drops - this is going to take a little more digestion :)


(1) Cool
(2) Gotcha
(3) Ah, good to know that's what they meant. I don't think it's awkward except that the legend needs to state that they are not part of any bonus "area" (although that wording could be misinterpreted... hmmm... maybe state that they are only part of the build-a-bonus). Anyway, don't grey them out, I think they serve a useful purpose... I just needed clarity in their gameplay function.

Other than that, digest as slowly as needed :)

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Re: Tokyo

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:47 pm

I notice you've got two territories called Kagurazaka and they're right next to each other. Probably would be a good idea to alter that fact.
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Re: Tokyo

Postby zimmah on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:26 am

MrBenn wrote:I like the cartoony style - I think the Animé theme could work well (although I'd switch out for a much cleaner, modern font). Stylistically, I don;t know if you're wanting to reflect something like this: http://www.tourism.metro.tokyo.jp/english/welcome/index.html?



giving it a manga feel would definitly be very suitable for this map.

I think haneda airport should also be on the map, not neccesarely as a conquerable region but at least as a visible place.


also, above the map title (Tokyo) i'd add 東京 the kanji spelling of Tokyo (Actually Toukyou)
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Re: Tokyo

Postby shakeycat on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:25 pm

Evil DIMwit - thanks, I don't know how that happened! Will correct.

Zimmah, kanji sounds appropriate. Haneda is too far off the bottom of the map to include. It's right near Ota, the one missing ward.
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Re: Tokyo

Postby shakeycat on Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:12 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


MarshalNey:

There are now:
29 Suburban regions (added 6 - 1 to Kita, 1 to Katsushika, 2 to Setagaya, 2 in splitting Nakano)
26 Old Tokyo regions (2 are landmarks and will start neutral)
31 Central Tokyo regions (added 1 to Shibuya)

13 parks, all start neutral.
9 landmarks, all start neutral. 2 are also Old Tokyo regions.

86 deployable regions in all, 20 neutral starts, 106 total.

2 or 3 player games, 28 each, 2 neutral (9 troops)
4 player games, 21 each, 2 neutral (7 troops)
5 player games, 17 each, 1 neutral (5 troops)
6 player games, 14 each, 2 neutral (4 troops)
7 player games, 12 each, 2 neutral (4 troops)
8 player games, 10 each, 6 neutral (3 troops)

It seems that:
a deployment of 23 or more regions guarantees at least 3 bonuses (worst case scenario, 9, 9, 5 in the three population bonus areas)
a deployment of 18 or more regions guarantees at least 2 bonuses (9, 9, 0)
a deployment of 13 or more regions guarantees at least 1 bonus (4, 4, 5)

Please correct me if I'm wrong and explain why, because my numbers are different from yours! It changes slightly if my numbers are correct, since 6 player games will include 1 bonus per player. Once you've double-checked this I can put it in he first post.

Instead of adding more neutrals, I could break up 3-region territories using drops.

Player 1
Tabata (Kita)
Minami-senji Rail yard (Arakawa)
Kinegawa (Katsushika)
Mukojima (Sumida)
Koyama (Shinagawa)
Koenji (Nakano)

Player 2
Oji (Kita)
Ogu (Arakawa)
Yotsugi (Katsushika)
Azuma-bashi (Sumida)
Shinagawa Seaside (Shinagawa)
Kosei (Nakano)

Player 3
Takinogawa (Kita)
Nippori (Arakawa)
Takaramachi (Katsushika)
Honjo (Sumida)
Osaki (Shinagawa)
Arai (Nakano)

Do you foresee any problems with an arrangement like this? I know we don't like too many drops, it can take some of the fun out.
It would, in a 2 player game, guarantee each player at least 4 blue territories.
At 86 deployable regions, at least one region will always start neutral, so to take one territory out of the drop and give it a neutral would make no difference.

------------------

I like this activation idea. It just seems too much that someone in a 2 player game would drop with 9 troops, then have a guaranteed +3 bonus, total 12. The first player to go would have an excellent advantage. Those 12 troops could easily mean the next player only starts with 8 troops and no bonus. If the activation has to take place, he would have to aim for a landmark instead of his opponent, and pay the "admission fee".

I made the landmarks neutral. How many neutrals should landmarks start with, if this is the case? Plus I'll need to learn how this activation is done in XML.


2 and 3 bonus region areas - bumped one up to 4, the rest up to 3. Made 3 worth +1 across the board, 4 is +2, 5 is +3. It doesn't look like there are any that will be ridiculously easy to hold, except maybe New Koto.


On clarity and graphics:

(1) Tokyo U and Tokyo Dome - Bunkyo bonus will include them to a total of +2 for 5 territories. It will take killing the neutrals off both, but once held, it could pull in +4 total bonus with 1 more Landmark held elsewhere. Filled in the circles behind other landmarks with grey as a visual cue that they are not part of any coloured bonus group (except Rainbow Bridge, which is between two groups anyway). If the cue is not enough, I can explain that "Landmarks are only part of the Landmark bonus group, except for Tokyo Dome and Tokyo U."

(2) Made colours more colourblind friendly. Still might be difficult to match up territories to their bonus in the legend, and for this reason I do keep the name of each territory on the map portion. No colours are duplicated, except Suburban territories without larger bonus regions which are all the same shade of blue.

(3) Noted in the legend.

------------------

Evil DIMWit: One of them is now called "Suido".
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Re: Tokyo

Postby zimmah on Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:53 pm

shakeycat wrote:I made the landmarks neutral. How many neutrals should landmarks start with, if this is the case? Plus I'll need to learn how this activation is done in XML.


Code: Select all
<territory>
   <name>Roppongi</name>
   <borders>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx></smallx>
      <smally></smally>
      <largex></largex>
      <largey></largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>5</neutral> /* Starting neutrals */
   <bonus>2</bonus> /* Autodeploy (can be negative) */
</territory>


like this. i put an example of the whole territory code as the order is important.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby shakeycat on Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:37 am

I don't think that's the code for activation... neutrals and autodeploy I did with Vancouver :) I'll have to dig through that 2nd Indochina thread, and Napoleonic Europe to see what Marshal meant in his earlier post.

.. and upon looking at Napoleonic Europe, it looks like a nice bunch of bonus groups broken down by the increments by which the bonus goes up, then an override with a bonus when both capital and bonus group are owned.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:59 am

i misunderstood you, i thought you was talking about the autodeploy on the parks for some reason (i don't even know where i got that idea from)

if you mean the manual deploy on the landmarks (+1 for each 3) that's quite simple really.

as for the territory, just make them like any normal territory.

Code: Select all
<continent>
<name>Three Landmarks</name>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Tokyo Tower</territory>
<territory>Tokyo University</territory>
<territory>Thunder Gate</territory>
<territory>Asahi Beer Hall</territory>
<territory>Meiji Shrine</territory>
<territory>Imperial Palace</territory>
<territory>Tokyo Dome</territory>
<territory>Rainbow Bridge</territory>
<territory>Fuji TV Station</territory>
</components>
<required>3</required>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>Six Landmarks</name>
<bonus>2</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Tokyo Tower</territory>
<territory>Tokyo University</territory>
<territory>Thunder Gate</territory>
<territory>Asahi Beer Hall</territory>
<territory>Meiji Shrine</territory>
<territory>Imperial Palace</territory>
<territory>Tokyo Dome</territory>
<territory>Rainbow Bridge</territory>
<territory>Fuji TV Station</territory>
</components>
<required>6</required>
<overrides>
<override>Three Landmarks</override>
</overrides>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>All Landmarks</name>
<bonus>3</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Tokyo Tower</territory>
<territory>Tokyo University</territory>
<territory>Thunder Gate</territory>
<territory>Asahi Beer Hall</territory>
<territory>Meiji Shrine</territory>
<territory>Imperial Palace</territory>
<territory>Tokyo Dome</territory>
<territory>Rainbow Bridge</territory>
<territory>Fuji TV Station</territory>
</components>
<overrides>
<override>Six Landmarks</override>  <!-- Note you don't have to override Three landmarks, as Six landsmarks ALLREADY does that. -->
</overrides>
</continent>


if you want you can even copy-paste this template into your map XML.
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image
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby shakeycat on Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:40 pm

Thank you, but that too is something I've done before - it's actually the less common activation bit that is new to me. In Napoleonic Europe, you need to hold a capital in order to get the bonus for the territories with swords on them. But I've looked at it, and when the time comes to write the XML, I think I can wrap my brain around it :) I do appreciate your helpfulness, and will ask if I reach some dilemma when writing it up.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:02 pm

that's easy too, you just use the same code like i wrote above, but you include something extra.

for example, if you want the landmarks to give no bonus, unless you also hold shibuja for example, you use the code i showed above but you set the <bonus></bonus> to 0.

then you write another piece of code that has the other continent as a requirement, in essence you just combine two continents into one, overriding the individual continents.

Code: Select all
<continent>
<name>Shibuja and 3 Landmarks</name>
<bonus>4</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Shibuja</territory>
<continent>Three Landmarks</continent>
</components>
<overrides>
<override>Three Landmarks</override>
</overrides>
</continent>
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby shakeycat on Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:45 am

Yeah, that's something like it. It's a bunch of repeating for each group and overrides and stuff. Anyway - we can talk XML once we get to that stage. First - Gameplay, then - Graphics! So long as we know that the Gameplay I intend for this map is doable in XML (and it is, since we see it in play on other maps), there is no issue at this point in time. Since there may still be changes (and big ones even) to the gameplay, I am holding off on writing out the XML until the rest gets the big rubber stamp.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby zimmah on Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:20 am

shakeycat wrote:Yeah, that's something like it. It's a bunch of repeating for each group and overrides and stuff. Anyway - we can talk XML once we get to that stage. First - Gameplay, then - Graphics! So long as we know that the Gameplay I intend for this map is doable in XML (and it is, since we see it in play on other maps), there is no issue at this point in time. Since there may still be changes (and big ones even) to the gameplay, I am holding off on writing out the XML until the rest gets the big rubber stamp.


i understand. i was just showing examples tho and those scraps didn't take me more then 1 minute to write anyway :)
if you come up with things that are truly not possible, i'll let you know.
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby shakeycat on Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:17 am

Work in progress:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Put in the neutral numbers for Parks and Landmarks. Is there any gameplay left to clear up?

Are the impassibles all right, do they need to be in the legend or is it kind of obvious? Are there any areas that are just too open? The map is pretty open as it is, but perhaps a few territories have too many borders.

Is the bonus structure fair? Similar Napoleonic Europe, one must take a Landmark before they can start to earn the Population Bonus. Because of the population bonus, the area bonuses are smaller.

The graphics, heading toward a more comic style, still work to do. Must clean up borders, all overlappy and messy. If any ideas on how to go further in this direction, do share!
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:45 am

I think you could use some more contrast between playable/non-playable areas.
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby zimmah on Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:43 am

i don't knopw if i fully understand the population bonus, it's a nice concept, however i don't understand what you mean by 'the same area'.

as far as i can see, there's no park in the suburban area's so it's impossable to get a populaton bonus there?
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby shakeycat on Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:00 am

zimmah wrote:i don't knopw if i fully understand the population bonus, it's a nice concept, however i don't understand what you mean by 'the same area'.

as far as i can see, there's no park in the suburban area's so it's impossable to get a populaton bonus there?


Ah - I switched the wording around and now it doesn't make sense, you're right. I will go back to "Earn +1 for every 5 territories held within the same area of Tokyo (Central, Old, or Suburban) when at least one Landmark is held." I had wanted to make the Landmark part first and foremost, but it ended up changing the meaning.

natty_dread wrote:I think you could use some more contrast between playable/non-playable areas.


Is it clear that the only 'non playable area' is the water and the legend? I'm thinking now that periphery territories where I have faded names (Nerima, Itabashi, Suginami, etc.) are looking almost unplayable, as if they are outlying states we don't care about .. that needs to change. If you meant something else, please tell me.
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:19 pm

shakeycat wrote:Is it clear that the only 'non playable area' is the water and the legend? I'm thinking now that periphery territories where I have faded names (Nerima, Itabashi, Suginami, etc.) are looking almost unplayable, as if they are outlying states we don't care about .. that needs to change. If you meant something else, please tell me.


The legend is ok, being brighter than everything else, but the water is very similar in tone, lightness, texture and saturation as the playable areas - there's not enough contrast between them. Some kind of contrast would do wonders for the clarity of the map. For example, the water could be darker than all of the playable areas - then there would be a lightness contrast between them. Or the other way around.

Another thing that can help is if you make the borders between land & sea stronger than the other territory borders. A dark inner glow for the water could also help.

Or you could utilize texture - give the land a smooth & shiny texture while making the sea coarse and noisy, or the other way around... although if you want to go for a "comic" look then strong textures probably aren't the best idea.

Another way is making the water a colour that is different from all of the land colours, but you have so many bonus areas that this can be difficult to achieve.

There's various ways of achieving contrast, but the important thing is that the playable areas "stand out" from the non-playable/impassable areas, this makes it easy to visualize and grasp the connections between the territories, which makes for a map that is easy to read.
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Re: Tokyo [10 Jul 2011]

Postby shakeycat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:49 am

Would something like this work?

Click image to enlarge.
image


Monochrome water, bold texture instead of more subtle texture on lands. Not sure if I like the texture I added to the land though. But I like the newspaper water compared to the purple water before.
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Re: Tokyo [10 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:36 am

Actually, that looks pretty good. Could you try rotating the land texture a few degrees though? It might look a bit more natural that way.
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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby shakeycat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:03 pm

Click image to enlarge.
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Thanks - rotated and looks better to me! Also turned the paper texture back on to block the lines behind (oops!). Yesterday's update looks like sitting too close to the TV screen or something.
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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:06 pm

There's a border missing between Nerima and Itabashi (top left).

There's a nice feel to the map now - it definitely works better than the over-brightness of before. What might be nice is a very slight paper texture to the background - not old parchment, but plain newspapery... perhaps one of these might work (especially the top one):

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs4/i/2004/256/6/8/Texture_1___sugar_paper_by_LL_stock.jpg

http://www.deviantart.com/download/125574004/Old_Grunger_Paper_Texture_04_by_fudgegraphics.jpg
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/162/6/6/Old_Grunger_Paper_Texture_08_by_fudgegraphics.jpg
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