Conquer Club

natty dread wrote:

Victor Sullivan wrote:moving Mana5 to Ta06 would give Tamar a well enough bump

All the mana founts are at distance 3 from their tower... well except for Aris which is 4. Anyway I'm not convinced that moving the mana fount closer would give a sufficient "bump", it just means 2 less neutrals to go through to get the same bonus...

True, but getting a slight head start would help. And I think the relative sparsity of his 'dominion', if you will, could leave him under-the-radar enough to secure it. Moving the Mana Fount closer (even to Ta02) could help him get a head start on this... It's something to think about at least.

Alternatively, perhaps adding a shrine to S01 would do well? It seems to me that would put Tamar at a relatively even standing with Heim.

natty dread wrote:There is an alternate route for Aris, the ferry at N05. And Merin has a mana fount in an easily defensible place, along with a shrine nearby... to me it seems Merin's got nothing to worry about.

I disagree. N05 really isn't that valid of an alternate route, as the Aris player would go toward Amun and the gold at Me08, it seems to me. What if you moved the ferry from N05 to N03?

-Sully

Victor Sullivan wrote:True, but getting a slight head start would help. And I think the relative sparsity of his 'dominion', if you will, could leave him under-the-radar enough to secure it. Moving the Mana Fount closer (even to Ta02) could help him get a head start on this... It's something to think about at least.

Yeah I don't know, I'll wait to hear what Isaiah suggests about it.

Victor Sullivan wrote:What if you moved the ferry from N05 to N03?

I can do that.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Alternatively, perhaps adding a shrine to S01 would do well? It seems to me that would put Tamar at a relatively even standing with Heim.
-Sully

This would work, and you can leave the manna Fount where it is. This will give Tamar an equal chance.

isaiah40 wrote:

Victor Sullivan wrote:Alternatively, perhaps adding a shrine to S01 would do well? It seems to me that would put Tamar at a relatively even standing with Heim.
-Sully

This would work, and you can leave the manna Fount where it is. This will give Tamar an equal chance.

But this would mean the south side would have one more shrine than the north side.

Actually, when I look at it, I really don't see how Tamar is at a disadvantage. Tamar has:

- Mana fount at distance 3 (+1)
- Village at distance 3 (+2)
- Unicorn at distance 2, Gold at distance 4 (+2)

When you compare it to Heim, who has:

- Mana fount at 3 (+1)
- Village at 4 (+2)
- Shrine at distance 4 (+2 with village)

They seem pretty equal to me. True, with the 2nd spell Heim can get an extra +3 from the Shrine, but the Shrine is also contested with Tamar, who will be right next to it after he takes the unicorn + gold. And Tamar can also get his own shrine easily via the ferry route.

So can someone explain to me the reasoning why Tamar is weak?

Seriously guys, please tell me why you think Tamar is at disadvantage, what makes him weaker than others. Because I have a hard time seeing it, honestly. If we know why he's weaker then it could be easier to figure out a good solution for it.

natty dread wrote:Actually, when I look at it, I really don't see how Tamar is at a disadvantage. Tamar has:

- Mana fount at distance 3 (+1)
- Village at distance 3 (+2)
- Unicorn at distance 2, Gold at distance 4 (+2)

When you compare it to Heim, who has:

- Mana fount at 3 (+1)
- Village at 4 (+2)

Look at it again. By the time Tamar can get to the gold, Heim would already have the gold and be blocking Tamar from getting it.
Heim
- Shrine and Village +2
- Mana Fount +1
- Village auto +2
- Total +5

Tamar
- Mana Fount +1
- Village auto +2
- Total +3

With the 2 extra men Heim gets - with moving those 2 from the village - Heim has a clear advantage on making sure Tamar doesn't get too far. Heim would effectively block Tamar from getting the Unicorn/Gold bonus for a couple of rounds, before he/she gets it themselves thus Tamar would not have chance. A couple of rounds later Heim would have +7 compared to Tamar's +3. and this is not counting the territory bonus. If we calculate that in Heim would get +9 while Tamar would get +6. Heim has the advantage.

isaiah40 wrote:Look at it again. By the time Tamar can get to the gold, Heim would already have the gold and be blocking Tamar from getting it.

How do you mean? Tamar has a shorter distance to that gold. Heim has 3 regular territories + Shrine in between, while Tamar only has 3 regular territories. That's 6 neutrals vs. 10 neutrals.

natty, can you please post your new version with the neutrals on it?

Yeah, in a moment.

Here

I guess that's all right. Don't forget to move that N05 ferry!

-Sully

Thank you natty! Looking at this again with the neutral values, meh, it might be okay. Personally, I'm willing to see how it works while in Beta. I'll get ian to take a look at it as well.

natty dread wrote:

isaiah40 wrote:Look at it again. By the time Tamar can get to the gold, Heim would already have the gold and be blocking Tamar from getting it.

How do you mean? Tamar has a shorter distance to that gold. Heim has 3 regular territories + Shrine in between, while Tamar only has 3 regular territories. That's 6 neutrals vs. 10 neutrals.

this is true. however, there are other factors which help heim. tamar always has to watch his back because he's so close to the ferry, so he cannot commit 100% to attacking. trees between ta01 and ta05 will aid tamar's defensive position here. the new arrangement near heim tower means that heim is much more secure than any other tower. to shorten the attack route from the s06 ferry to heim tower, can u put the he09 gnoll on s07 and maybe connect he02 to he06? if u need to retain the distance between heim tower and the shrine, then trees between he06 and he07 will do the trick.

is it possible to draw some trees between bo06 and bo09 to force boruk to make an initial choice between the village and the graveyard rather than having an easy route to both?

the independent +2 auto, plus ability to combine for either light or dark bonuses, makes the villages more desirable than gnolls, unicorns or gold. the villages ought to have 5 neutrals, while the others have 4, and not the other way round.

an oddity is the shrine at n09, which has only 3 neutrals. is this deliberate?

ian.

iancanton wrote:an oddity is the shrine at n09, which has only 3 neutrals. is this deliberate?

It is because there's also a ferry there. I figured easy movement between all the ferries was more important than having the right amount of neutrals on that shrine, especially since it's on "dark territory" where it's not of any immediate use to the nearest player.

iancanton wrote:trees between ta01 and ta05 will aid tamar's defensive position here.

Ok, I'm not opposed to this, but are you sure it won't hinder Tamar's ability to move around?

iancanton wrote: to shorten the attack route from the s06 ferry to heim tower, can u put the he09 gnoll on s07 and maybe connect he02 to he06? if u need to retain the distance between heim tower and the shrine, then trees between he06 and he07 will do the trick.

Ok this sounds good.

iancanton wrote:is it possible to draw some trees between bo06 and bo09 to force boruk to make an initial choice between the village and the graveyard rather than having an easy route to both?

I don't know about this... I'm kinda worried that this would create a closed "island" for Boruk that is way too easy to defend, and too hard for others to reach...

iancanton wrote:the independent +2 auto, plus ability to combine for either light or dark bonuses, makes the villages more desirable than gnolls, unicorns or gold. the villages ought to have 5 neutrals, while the others have 4, and not the other way round.

Sure, this sounds reasonable.

natty dread wrote:

iancanton wrote:is it possible to draw some trees between bo06 and bo09 to force boruk to make an initial choice between the village and the graveyard rather than having an easy route to both?

I don't know about this... I'm kinda worried that this would create a closed "island" for Boruk that is way too easy to defend, and too hard for others to reach...

With trees between bo06 and bo09, while it may force boruk to make a choice, it will give seketh a slight advantage in getting to the graveyard before boruk thereby limiting what boruk can do. IMHO I think we can do without the trees between bo06 and bo09.

Here's an update... not that you people deserve it.



And with neutrals

So, what next?

natty dread wrote:So, what next?

Come on guys, I'd like to get this thing moving on - I have a new awesome map idea I'd like to start but I want to get some old projects out the way first...

So, any further gameplay concerns?

I like the changes!! I have sent a pm to iancanton, so hopefully he'll be here within the next couple of days.

Couple of days have gone already...

I'm going to sticky this for now, and I'll also give ian another nudge as well.

Neat map, Natty! I like the fantasy theme.

thanks

Yea now DIS one is epic, dibs on first game. *fingers crossed*