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Battle for the Spice Islands

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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby Aleena on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:18 am

Not sure why you fell it needs to be reduced a lot?

1) what is a lot - like 50% only max 5 or 75% only max 3 ?

2) what is wrong with having large deployment and large armies fighting each other?

The map is called Battle for Spice Island - to try to show that Spice Island is really valuable..
Having Spice Island yield +10 does not only make it really valuable - falling with-in the theme - it makes it the center focus point where everyone will constantly be fighting over - and changing the ownership of each Spice held... So most likely (unless the player has taken over a large portion of the rest of the map) - anyone who snags Spice Island for this bump will only have it for a few turns before the other players start to strip them of the spice... If players do not fight over Spice Island and just allow someone to keep it - then those players have all ready given up on the game - - the game is about the struggle over these spices.. (At least that is how I read it)

I think that is the whole point of the map...

Else spice Island would not be any more valuable then one or two of the other land bonuses - and it would just be another space on the board....

I like it the way it is - but in the very least if you want to make it more of a struggle to hold onto and less of a bottleneck then maybe add extra spaces around the magnefine glass having each give access to spice island instead of just the one space compass - for that one space can be used as a huge blockade... Where if you had different routes into Spice Island (such as N, S, E, W, maybe even NE, NW, SE, SW "the more the better") then it would add more of a struggle to hold onto for one would have to split up his armies to protect each access point..

But that is just a suggestion - I like it as it is....


Really rough example to give an idea what I mean: (But this is just an optional idea to eliminate the bottleneck to the island - unless you prefer to have one spot that will become a huge blockade..)

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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:05 pm

Aleena wrote:Not sure why you fell it needs to be reduced a lot?

Because a 10 bonus that can be defended from one spot is a huge amount. In fact, it will become the main focus of the map considering you need the spice islands to win. So whoever gets them first wins. This will be the case in nearly all games.
When you look at the map like this:
NorthWest - 4
SouthWest - 5
Central - 4
SouthEast - 3
Spice Islands - 10
Spice is worth double the biggest bonus with far fewer regions to hold and a lot less borders to protect.
Aleena wrote:2) what is wrong with having large deployment and large armies fighting each other?

Nothing, but the map needs to be balanced throughout so a player with a good drop does not dominate the game from round one.
Aleena wrote:Really rough example to give an idea what I mean: (But this is just an optional idea to eliminate the bottleneck to the island - unless you prefer to have one spot that will become a huge blockade..)

I am not a fan of the bottle neck but for this map it suits it.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:30 pm

Oh man - I wrote a huge note and it got eaten when I had to log in again...
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:35 pm

In a nut shell - It's deliberate. I think if you count Java the same way you count Spice Islands you get 11 to 10... Spice has SP1 pinch point but that is -2...

I think we still need to address initial deployment.

Other than that - I think I like the way it is set up and not sure that anyone is disagreeing..?
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:13 am

vaughn03 wrote:In a nut shell - It's deliberate. I think if you count Java the same way you count Spice Islands you get 11 to 10... Spice has SP1 pinch point but that is -2...

I think we still need to address initial deployment.

Other than that - I think I like the way it is set up and not sure that anyone is disagreeing..?

I like the set up now, but I would suggest two slight changes.
Remove the +2 for spice islands now as you have the +1 for each spice. This still leaves you with a bonus of 4 for holding the islands.
Armada and any one spice +1, this reduces the bonus again by 3.
So what you get is a bonus for holding the whole of the spice islands is 4 or 5 depending if you have an armada or not. This is plenty and keeps the focus there. Remembering that the spice islands, you have to go through a decay region, but right onto two auto deploys. So again, once held, you get to keep them. But I can live with this for now.

vaughn, what are your ideas on deployment. Remember, all auto deploys and decays should start neutral.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:13 pm

Isn't there a 'table' or something in this forum somewhere for initial deployment? I seem to remember seeing maybe..? I assume you are AGAINST the idea of deploying only on Fleets? Is so please state reasons and I'm sure I will probably agree...

Not sure if we are counting bonus' the same..? You are probably right... But one thing you keep saying is Spice Islands + Armada gives you 'x'. I see no reason for you to point this out..? You can just as easily hold an Armada (3 Fleets of same flag) with any other Land Bonus or with no Land Bonus at all for +2. Of course traveling with that Armada will be expensive due to the -2 decay of SP's or Sea Passages. Armada's with a Spice add +1 per Spice which would definately add up, but you still have to hold the Armada and a Major Port to achieve victory. Also a bit reluctant to take away Spice Island bonus - it seems un'CC' to not be rewarded for holding a continent and perhaps confusing?

Of course I'm willing to play with numbers to promote game play but feel you are really discounting bonus' from rest of map..? Maybe Spice Islands a pedestrian +1..?

Want to lock this down BEFORE I modify map - don't really see modifying the map as solving anything regarding bonus discussion. But I do see a couple small 'errors' that have crept back in, hopefully will not confuse anyone, they are minor and 'look' like errors...

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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:18 pm

Armada and any one spice +1, this reduces the bonus again by 3


?????
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:22 am

vaughn03 wrote:
Armada and any one spice +1, this reduces the bonus again by 3
?????

vaughn03 wrote:Not sure if we are counting bonus' the same..? You are probably right... But one thing you keep saying is Spice Islands + Armada gives you 'x'. I see no reason for you to point this out..?

On the map you have Armada and 1 spice +1, so with four spices it becomes a +4. By only allowing this bonus once, you reduce it by 3.

Look in the legend on the left side at the bottom. I read Armada+(1) Spice +1. This is why I keep saying this.

vaughn03 wrote: I assume you are AGAINST the idea of deploying only on Fleets? Is so please state reasons and I'm sure I will probably agree...

I have no problem giving the fleets out as starting positions. What I mean is that every one is given out evenly to players.
    As for being the only starts, I would be against it as it gives players who start on DF1 a huge advantage as they are near the spice islands and can then control them from the outset.
      Secondly, some fleets border each other, so in a lot of games, a lot of players will never get a turn because they will be eliminated before hand.

Neutrals, I would think that spice island needs to be all neutral (N1), Small ports (n2), large ports (n3), sea passages (n1).
So apart from those neutrals above, have the fleets all start evenly through starting position and everything else a random drop.

Thoughts.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:22 am

You - want - the Armada + Spice bonus to only be allowed for a +1 as opposed to getting all 4 spices and getting +4..?

I don't think I like that as well - I imagine a robust battle over those spices - you think someone will just go in and block out everyone - and then easily hold all 4 spices..? Sorry for confusion just trying to make sure I understand you...

I think I agree with you on initial deployment...

Is 3 neutral troops (n3) the limit..? I did have a thought that maybe SP1 could be n3 or maybe even more..? n5..? Not allowed? Thoughts?
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:11 am

vaughn03 wrote:You - want - the Armada + Spice bonus to only be allowed for a +1 as opposed to getting all 4 spices and getting +4..?

Correct. Will explain why in a bit.
vaughn03 wrote:I imagine a robust battle over those spices - you think someone will just go in and block out everyone - and then easily hold all 4 spices..?

Yes.

If you look at the spice islands, you have to consider many things including all of the different ways we have to play the game. Here is a break down of the bonuses you have now on the map.
    Spice islands +2
    Each spice +1 - total +4
    Armada and each spice +1 total +4
    Armada +2
    Two lesser ports +2 auto deploy.
So when you hold spice island alone you can get a bonus of 6 with an auto deploy of 2. This is a huge bonus for holding a region of 6 territs with only one way in or out. A before you come back with SP being a decay of 2, that is countered by the two auto deploys from the minor ports. Even with adjacent and chained reinforcements, this decay is lessened to one and with a huge bonus, you can easily counter any decay and still have troops to deploy elsewhere on the map. These bonuses go up to 12 and 2 auto when held with an armada. This is a massive jump for for holding another 3 territs on the map.

What I get from the bonus calculator is a max of 3 bonus for the spice islands, considering you have two auto deploys on them as well, you should only really have a max of 1 bonus else where. You have not only more but drastically more. When you do the equation again with the armada, you get 6.75. This should be rounded down to 6 but as it is close to the 7 I could live with that. So we need to get the bonus for spice island itself down to a far lower figure.
So what I would suggest is this.
    Spice islands +1
    Each spice +0 Hold all spices +1
    Two lesser ports +2 auto deploy.
    Armada and all spice +0 total +1
    Armada +2
This would give you a max of 7 for the spice islands and armada combo. But only 4 without the armada. That is one over what it should be and can be lived with. But it is bang on for with an armada. This should allow you to keep the focus on spice island as it has a lot of bonuses on them that can build very fast.

vaughn03 wrote:Is 3 neutral troops (n3) the limit..? I did have a thought that maybe SP1 could be n3 or maybe even more..? n5..? Not allowed? Thoughts?

You can have neutrals at any level you want. Remember though, too low and they become pointless and too high they are never taken. Have a think about what neutrals you want on the map and then do an image with them on.
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Once that is done we can look easier at what they look like no the whole map.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:37 am

Bonus calculator..? Is that a 'real' thing somewhere in here..? If so please guide me. I get your point - we need to keep the 'focus' on the Spice Islands without prematurely ending the game due to out-of-sync bonus'...

If I were to make the SP1 square n5 say... Or n50 for that matter - on this map it can not be 'left alone' because you must go through it to reach the Victory objective, no? I guess you could forgo the objective and just try to wipe everyone out so n50 would probably not work..? But perhaps I can consider n5 to n? because of the large incentive to go thru this portal... RIght?

I'm listening to you and trying to come up with a good solution.

Thanks for all your help.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:45 am

I'm new to this process...

I understand both sides of the coin - but how things really would play out might surprise us all..

Could he not leave it as is - then in Beta see if your bonus calculator is correct (because their are a lot of other variables that the calculator can not account for) and then while n Beta make the few adjustments of raising and lowering values of variables...?

This is the link to the Bonus Calculator
viewtopic.php?f=649&t=151297
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:51 am

Thanks.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:28 am

vaughn03 wrote:Bonus calculator..? Is that a 'real' thing somewhere in here..?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=649&t=151297 Not sure if this is the same one we use but it will give you a pretty good calculation. Remember, all of the calculations take into account every possible thing and is pretty accurate. I got something like 3.1 for the spice island and 6.75 with the armada. I still need to run it for the other bonuses as well but want to sort out the spice islands first as the others are easy to sort out.
Aleena wrote:Could he not leave it as is - then in Beta see if your bonus calculator is correct

No, map makers have refused to do this in the past so it is stopped for something major like this. What would happen is vaughn goes missing with all of his files the day it goes live. Trying to change a map and xml once it is live is a nightmare. Beta is to sort things out like bonuses and neutrals (raising or lowering) but not to see if the game play works or not. And we are not that bad at doing this and do take into account the map makers wishes.
vaughn03 wrote:If I were to make the SP1 square n5 say... Or n50 for that matter - on this map it can not be 'left alone' because you must go through it to reach the Victory objective, no? I guess you could forgo the objective and just try to wipe everyone out so n50 would probably not work..? But perhaps I can consider n5 to n? because of the large incentive to go thru this portal... RIght?

Correct, it will depend on the neutral here. Too low and you give it away and an advantage to the players who start closest. Too high and no one will ever go for the winning condition. But I am not convinced that placing a high neutral there will have a positive influence on the game but more a negative one. A neutral 5 should be about right though for the bonuses I posted before.

No spoils game, a higher neutral will only be gotten through after another bonus is held and troops can be built up. That is going to be very late in the game so most games will ignore the winning condition.
Escalating, you get a slow build up of troops but after a few cash in, a high neutral will still deter as most will try for a sweep of the board.
Flat rate, here is where you might get players going for it, but if the neutral is a 10, no one will want to attempt it till late in the game when they control a large part of the board.
In a nukes game, you will only have players going for it when the neutral has been nuked.
But that is only part of it, what happens in a 2 player game? More troops are handed out at the start of the game so a higher neutral is needed.
8/12 player games are going to be killer here. A high neutral will never be taken.

vaughn, you see, we need to take into account every game setting.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:39 am

If he does not want to lower Spice Island's Bonus - could he offset it by raising the Bonuses of the other areas... This way he still can keep the land area bonus and keep the map consistent
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:54 am

Aleena wrote:If he does not want to lower Spice Island's Bonus - could he offset it by raising the Bonuses of the other areas... This way he still can keep the land area bonus and keep the map consistent

If that happens, then the map becomes a who gets a bonus first wins map. You need to consider the whole map as one and not just spice island.

Other bonuses that need to be changed while we are at it.
    NorthWest - 5
    SouthWest - 6
    Central - 6
    SouthEast - 4

vaughn, can you confirm how the sea routes work please. Look at PF3 and tell me what it can attack?

I am hoping with a little push, we can get this one stamped sooner rather than later. Then I can move onto other maps.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:42 pm

Sure - I think... This is actually what worries me the most about the map that the fleets will have poor balance. Bonus' can easily be lowered or raised, yes? Moving stuff around - much more problematic, I think that's what you told Aleena...

PF3 can attack - I'll go clockwise - Macau, SP10, Kingdom of Manila, DF1, Sultanate of Brunei, SF3. It can be counter attacked by SP10, DF1 and SF3 and by the ports as well once the 'Land Bonus' is held. I think - hope - if you follow the breadcrumbs it's fairly clear what can attack what..?

See Aleena is right - you have raised the bonus' for the other continents - lol...

I think I'm OK with your numbers - although even your 'formula' says that bonus may need to be higher for central located high value targets, yes..?

You are the PRO here and usually I try not to argue with people who are far more knowledgable than I... Although I'm not accused of being 'humble' very often... However, as I said before, I don't want this map to play the same as every other map... Wish they would let me do some of my other ideas... Also want it to reflect the history of this region but of course I don't want it so rigid that everything is a forgone conclusion.

Also sure I am guilty of not thinking of all game play options - I like trench, fog of war with no spoils or flat rate. I have always felt that Risk - I mean CC - is a war simulation game, albeit very simple, and hated things like 'escalating' when you are down to 1 territory and then you play a set and conquer the world. Makes no sense to me...
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:29 am

vaughn03 wrote:PF3 can attack - I'll go clockwise - Macau, SP10, Kingdom of Manila, DF1, Sultanate of Brunei, SF3. It can be counter attacked by SP10, DF1 and SF3 and by the ports as well once the 'Land Bonus' is held. I think - hope - if you follow the breadcrumbs it's fairly clear what can attack what..?

Image
Looking at this image, you can attack more then what you said. It does look like DF1 and Palawan is also attacked and can attack. This is not the only place where the sea routes cause confusion on how a player can move around. Can you go over all sea routes and make them really clear on what can attack what. The last thing we need is players complaining that they cannot see them clearly. You have routes between islands crossing over routes between ships. This implies that those ships can attack the land as well. I would suggest two types of movement here. One between land and the other between ships, ships/land. So you can keep the dots for the ship movements but try a more solid line for land. The one you have between Burma and Malaka you can remove. But what ever you come up with, please make sure this is really clear.

vaughn03 wrote:See Aleena is right - you have raised the bonus' for the other continents - lol...

Only as much as what was needed. The main one got lowered. ;)
vaughn03 wrote:I think I'm OK with your numbers - although even your 'formula' says that bonus may need to be higher for central located high value targets, yes..?

Hence the reason I said the 3 and 7, not a 2 and 6. Higher for central areas does not mean double. :roll:
vaughn03 wrote:You are the PRO here and usually I try not to argue with people who are far more knowledgable than I... Although I'm not accused of being 'humble' very often... However, as I said before, I don't want this map to play the same as every other map... Wish they would let me do some of my other ideas... Also want it to reflect the history of this region but of course I don't want it so rigid that everything is a forgone conclusion.

A frank discussion is what is needed, a compromise between has to be made, and a map that makes everyone happy is what we end up with. It is not a matter of upsetting map makers or making all maps the same but trying to grasp what the map maker wants and moulding that in a way that a game can be fair for all. We are all resistant to change as we all want our dream to be the one, but like all processes, it ends up being a team effort. You are the one that will get the glory in the end. :D
vaughn03 wrote:Also sure I am guilty of not thinking of all game play options - I like trench, fog of war with no spoils or flat rate. I have always felt that Risk - I mean CC - is a war simulation game, albeit very simple, and hated things like 'escalating' when you are down to 1 territory and then you play a set and conquer the world. Makes no sense to me...

For me it is the large game, esc spoils, unlimited and fog. But when I make a map, I cannot make it for that only and have to include all else. It can be frustrating but until the site allows us to specialise in one type of game, this is the way we have to work.

So a plan for you then.
Sort out the sea routes + put into the legend.
Change bonuses.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:10 am

Don't roll your eyes at me boss - lol... I'm all about compromise and change... Tidak apa apa.

Little unclear what you want in legend?

+ put into the legend.


I will try and make attack routes more clear and change bonus' # in legend to numbers you have suggested. What was the middle part..? See quote above.

Will try to get to this tomorrow - then will be on hiatus for almost a week. Sorry for delay, I know you wanted to try and bang this forward but I got a volcano to climb boss...

Thanks
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:55 am

vaughn03 wrote:
+ put into the legend.

I will try and make attack routes more clear and change bonus' # in legend to numbers you have suggested. What was the middle part..? See quote above.

When you have decided on how to make the sea routes really clear, put the symbol into the legend with "sea route" so people can see what it is. I suggest you use two, one for island to island and one for ship to shore. This will make things clearer when they cross over.

No problem about the week. Will give me time to look at a couple of other maps that need a going over. :D

vaughn03 wrote:I know you wanted to try and bang this forward

Just wanting to play it and after so long without a look over, it was about time.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:38 pm

Thanks boss.
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby iancanton on Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:21 pm

hope u've been having a wonderful time in indonesia!

port moresby (or port moseby, as it is spelled here) did not exist at the time of this map and there were no cities on the island of nieuw guinea. however, ambon was the headquarters of the dutch east india company until 1619. i propose that port moseby disappears and we add ambon (a small island very close to the southwest tip of ceram) as a lesser port; to avoid having to draw confusing sea routes, treat ambon as a city on ceram rather than as an island, since it is smaller than the port symbol. incidentally, it's ceram, not celam.

there is a map in the third link below that shows the spice islands. from this, the large spice island is called halmahera, while ternate and tidore are the little dark green islands beside the compass. the island where u have spice 4 is batjan, not tidoro.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012 ... aluku.html
http://indahnesia.com/indonesia/MALKOT/kota_ambon.php
http://indahnesia.com/indonesia/MAL/maluku.php

the dotted sea route near ternate is confusing. it seems to touch the troop circle for ternate at a tangent, but we can still see all of the dots. can u redraw it to be more direct?

if a player has 2 armadas and 2 spices, then does he receive a bonus of +2 or +4? u need to make this clear.

u have 2 ports called batavia now. is this deliberate?

please use better names for the land bonuses if possible. an example is mainland asia instead of northwest.

ian. :)
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby vaughn03 on Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:52 pm

Thank you Ian - I will look at you suggestions - I'm sure they are valid.

I am having a good time on Bali, as always, and staying very busy. I'm returning to the US of A Oct. 2 and will probably not get any work done on this until then. (I also hate working PS on a laptop, I need miles of pixels and a mouse...) Please bare with me and upon return will make a hard push again. Would greatly appreciate any additional corrections/suggestions prior to my return - much easier to go in to operate once instead of openin' her up multiple times, increases likely hood that I will create new mistake as well...

Appreciate all input and help - think this map is looking really good. I too am looking forward to playing.

Thank you all from the Ring of FIre
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Re: Battle for the Spice Islands - 8/27/2013 - Version: 17-P

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:52 pm

vaughn03, this is more a formality than anything else. Since your last update was posted on 27/8, I'm going to move this on a temporary vacation status.
I know you were away, just i'm trying to have more consistence with moving maps around and apply guidelines/policies

As soon as you have a new update posted, please send me a PM and i'll move you back to the MF. ;)
I hope you enjoyed your vacation.

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Re: *[Vacation-valid till Apr 2014]Battle for the Spice Isla

Postby vaughn03 on Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:26 pm

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Sorry for the long delay - one thing leads to another... Also difficult to pick up again, can't remember what is what. Started again about 3x's and gave up.

Hopefully this is not repeating past mistakes. I've left somethings as they are despite valid suggestions particularly regarding history. Wallace's Map includes all the areas in the southeast as mine does although, as correctly pointed out, this area of the globe was not 'important' at that time and Port Moresby was, if anything, only a trading post. I considered changing and including Ambon as suggested but decided that I would have to radically change the map - leaving out Australia and Papua or make thing more cluttered in a small area than they all ready are. So I left it and just changed the spelling to the pigeon 'Pot Mosbi' instead. My case will rest on the intent that gameplay is paramount and that this is not so rigid a reproduction to history and allows the 'possibility' that this region could have developed differently. Fair enough?

I have fixed some small things - thanks to all who contributed.

Sea Attacks and Land Attacks are now - hopefully - more clear.

Let me know what's still fu - messed up and I'll try and get 'er done.

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