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Which game play options would be better?

Poll ended at Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:42 am

 
Total votes : 0

Postby yeti_c on Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:50 am

IoG = Isle of Grey...

instead of SoG = Sea of Grey...

C.
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Postby BelJoDoe on Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:54 am

That's a great idea, Yeti. I like it. Can that be done under the new XML changes?

"IoG" ;-) is 183 player-starting territories. So on a 6 player game, that's 30 each, so under 'normal' rules, that's 10 armies, first turn.

I like the initialisms you've coined. IoG and SoG. Thanks. It'll sure make my posts much easier to write, in future :-P
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Postby yeti_c on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:24 am

BelJoDoe wrote:That's a great idea, Yeti. I like it. Can that be done under the new XML changes?

"IoG" ;-) is 183 player-starting territories. So on a 6 player game, that's 30 each, so under 'normal' rules, that's 10 armies, first turn.

I like the initialisms you've coined. IoG and SoG. Thanks. It'll sure make my posts much easier to write, in future :-P


Yep that can be done very easily under the new XML stuff...

Essentially all the territories are listed in the continent and then you have a <required> tag - and set the <bonus> to -X... and then you <override> the previous rule.

So in this instance -> 30 territories to start...

So required would be 30... and then you could decrease the usual territory bonus down to 3 (say) ->

This would be the way I would do it...

Code: Select all
<name>30 territories
<required>30
<bonus>-7 <- remember this is 10 -7 = 3

<name>36 territories
<required>36
<bonus>-5 <- This is 12 -5 = 7

<name>40 territories
<required>40
<bonus>-3 <- This is 14 -3 = 9

<name>46 territories
<required>46
<bonus>-1 <- This is 16 -1 = 15

<name>49 territories
<required>49
<bonus>0 <- This is 17 -0 = 17


Note as this starting number is so high - you would also need to lower the other ones down to 3...

Code: Select all
<name>27 territories
<required>27
<bonus>-6 <- remember this is 9 -6 = 3

<name>24 territories
<required>24
<bonus>-5 <- remember this is 8 -5 = 3

<name>21 territories
<required>21
<bonus>-4 <- remember this is 7 -4 = 3

<name>18 territories
<required>18
<bonus>-3 <- remember this is 6 -3 = 3

<name>15 territories
<required>15
<bonus>-2 <- remember this is 5 -2 = 3

<name>12 territories
<required>12
<bonus>-1 <- remember this is 4 -1 = 3


Then each one would need to <override> the previous one...

Code: Select all
<name>49 territories
<required>49
<bonus>0 <- This is 17 -0 = 17
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
  <override>18 territories
  <override>21 territories
  <override>24 territories
  <override>27 territories
  <override>30 territories
  <override>36 territories
  <override>40 territories
  <override>46 territories
</overrides>

<name>46 territories
<required>46
<bonus>-1 <- This is 16 -1 = 15
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
  <override>18 territories
  <override>21 territories
  <override>24 territories
  <override>27 territories
  <override>30 territories
  <override>36 territories
  <override>40 territories
</overrides>

<name>40 territories
<required>40
<bonus>-3 <- This is 14 -3 = 9
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
  <override>18 territories
  <override>21 territories
  <override>24 territories
  <override>27 territories
  <override>30 territories
  <override>36 territories
</overrides>

<name>36 territories
<required>36
<bonus>-5 <- This is 12 -5 = 7
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
  <override>18 territories
  <override>21 territories
  <override>24 territories
  <override>27 territories
  <override>30 territories
</overrides>

<name>30 territories
<required>30
<bonus>-7 <- remember this is 10 -7 = 3
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
  <override>18 territories
  <override>21 territories
  <override>24 territories
  <override>27 territories
</overrides>

<name>27 territories
<required>27
<bonus>-6 <- remember this is 9 -6 = 3
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
  <override>18 territories
  <override>21 territories
  <override>24 territories
</overrides>

<name>24 territories
<required>24
<bonus>-5 <- remember this is 8 -5 = 3
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
  <override>18 territories
  <override>21 territories
</overrides>

<name>21 territories
<required>21
<bonus>-4 <- remember this is 7 -4 = 3
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
  <override>18 territories
</overrides>

<name>18 territories
<required>18
<bonus>-3 <- remember this is 6 -3 = 3
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
  <override>15 territories
</overrides>

<name>15 territories
<required>15
<bonus>-2 <- remember this is 5 -2 = 3
<overrides>
  <override>12 territories
</overrides>

<name>12 territories
<required>12
<bonus>-1 <- remember this is 4 -1 = 3


C.

PS - note I've simplified this massively!!
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Postby unriggable on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:25 am

I think you need more obstacles in the 'dead' areas.
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Postby BelJoDoe on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:30 am

Thanks, Yeti.

Unriggable, I'm all for suggestions as to the placement of mountains, rivers etc that might inhibit the movement of troops. Any suggestions as to where I can place such barriers are welcome. I'll look them up in my atlases (atlai? :P) and if I agree with you, I'll add them.
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Postby yeti_c on Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 am

No worries...

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Postby Coleman on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:34 am

I'm completely ecstatic over the xml solution you guys posted. :lol:

Keep up the good work.
Warning: You may be reading a really old topic.
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Postby mibi on Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:29 am

I still think capitals would be a much better extra bonus system than 'pairs' for the following reason

1. the detail of coords allow for accurate placement of capital cities
2. capitals are lacking from other world maps
3 it would easier to defend a capital then a 10 territory area with 10 borders.
4. just what are the relevance of pairs anyways?
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Postby unriggable on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:33 pm

mibi wrote:I still think capitals would be a much better extra bonus system than 'pairs' for the following reason

1. the detail of coords allow for accurate placement of capital cities
2. capitals are lacking from other world maps
3 it would easier to defend a capital then a 10 territory area with 10 borders.
4. just what are the relevance of pairs anyways?


Agree, agree, agree. However the capitals need to be well defended, like they start with 8 neutrals or something, to show how difficult it is to conquer those hotspots.
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Postby BelJoDoe on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:40 pm

Mibi, please elaborate on what you mean by "capitals" and please give me a 'for instance'. At the moment, I don't really understand you suggestion so I find it difficult to comment upon.
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Postby unriggable on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:51 pm

BelJoDoe wrote:Mibi, please elaborate on what you mean by "capitals" and please give me a 'for instance'. At the moment, I don't really understand you suggestion so I find it difficult to comment upon.


A capital is a territory, just one territory, that gives you a bonus for owning it. They are spread far and wide, maybe on a map of this size there would be fifteen capitals tops. I suggest they give a bonus of +2. they should also be placed on easily disputed areas. I can give you examples on where they could go.
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Postby BelJoDoe on Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:05 pm

Ok, I'm interested...

We could use a neutral territory for the capitals themselves and these could be surrounded by a layer of neutrals, making a 3x3 block for each capital and effectively ensuring that no player gains the bonus too easily. I like the idea but I'm not sure that the game-play would be more fun than the SoG/IoG outlines... perhaps if you elaborate further on the idea, I might be swung.
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Postby unriggable on Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:13 pm

BelJoDoe wrote:Ok, I'm interested...

We could use a neutral territory for the capitals themselves and these could be surrounded by a layer of neutrals, making a 3x3 block for each capital and effectively ensuring that no player gains the bonus too easily. I like the idea but I'm not sure that the game-play would be more fun than the SoG/IoG outlines... perhaps if you elaborate further on the idea, I might be swung.


Well the only pet peeve I have is how people go for the same places, continents. If there are no continents, the countries are up to the players, and this mimics a real-life struggle to maintain boundaries. That way a nation is measured either by it's size or the number of capitals it has.

Id would be wicked fun if we could have each player start with a single random territory and have all the others be neutral. THAT would be sick. I think a new XML makes that possible.
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Postby BelJoDoe on Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:15 pm

I must admit to being very intrigued by the idea of having just a small number of territories to start the game but it would make for a VERY long game.

If there's enough support, I see no reason not to make that map, in addition to the Sea of Grey (the poll so far seems to suggest that people don't want a 'standard' game on this map).

I'll suggest some captials that represent regions that have had a major influence on the world... if you have more suggestions, let me know.
NOTE, I had to be selective based on some level of balance, otherwise Europe and the Middle East would be too full.

Rome ... London ... Moscow ...
Riyadh ... Tokyo ... Beijing ... Mumbai ... Seoul ... Bamgkok ... Tehran
Cairo ... Algiers ... Lagos ... Cape Town ... Nairobi ... Kinshasa
Canberra ... Manila ... Jakarta ... Aukland
Brazilia ... Buenos Aires ... Lima ... Santiago ... Mexico City
Washington D.C. ... Ottawa ... Havana ...
(+ Vancouver and L.A. ... even though they're not capitals, North America looks kinda quiet without them)

I've named 30, above... that should provide each player -in a 6-player game- with 5 territories. If we use your suggestion of +2 armies for each capital, that'll mean 13 armies to deploy each. With size 3 neutrals, that would make conquering another capital, first turn possible but taxing on your 'empire', forcing a player to deploy all on one capital and thus leaving the others open for assault.

I hope I've understood your suggestion properly. Let me know.


EDIT: On reflection, Ottawa and Washington D.C. might be too close. suggestions?
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Postby yeti_c on Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:35 am

Hmmm capitals sounds like it could be fun - but with such a huge map - I'm not sure the start in one place idea would work too well - would lead to massive build games I reckon?

The starting places could just be the Capitals? That might work...

I would suggest a wall of neutrals round the capitals and then the rest 1's?

Coleman wrote:I'm completely ecstatic over the xml solution you guys posted. :lol:

Keep up the good work.


No worries - NOTE to BelJoeDoe - the above code was pseudoXML -> don't copy and paste it in as it won't work... it's missing numerous parts!!

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Postby BelJoDoe on Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:41 pm

That's pretty much how I envisioned Mibi and Unriggable's idea. Players starting in the capitals, each with a small 'wall' surrounding and then lots of easy territory after. I think it'd make for a long game but I think it might be fun. In my opinion, it would certainly make for memorable games that you might remember long after finishing them.

Oh and thanks for the 'pseudo' XML ;-) ... hopefully it'll inspire me when it comes to writing it all.


Right, so far then I'm thinking about making 2 versions: SoG and for the capitals idea (Please look over the list I made in my previous post and argue against my suggestions/make suggestions of your own/support my suggestions ... this is mainly directed at those that would like to see the capitals idea implemented but anyone's input is good). I also still need a name for the "capitals idea"... How about City States (C.S.)?
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Postby unriggable on Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:48 am

I don't think there's enough room for names, just stick with the letters / numbers.
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Postby WidowMakers on Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:28 pm

BelJoDoe wrote:Image


Just so you know, triple digit numbers do not center around the center digit. They stay centered around the middle of the first two.

So really, triple digits look just like double (as far as centering) than just add another 8.
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Postby Kaplowitz on Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:36 pm

^^Well that really doesnt matter, just center it correctly in the xml so that it looks like it does above....right?
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Postby WidowMakers on Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:40 pm

Kaplowitz wrote:^^Well that really doesnt matter, just center it correctly in the xml so that it looks like it does above....right?
No, th eXML just says what can attack what and such and it locates the center of the army numbers. But once the numbers get above 2 digits, they just add the 3rd and 4th digits to the right side and no longer recenter. Just look at a buildup game. The numbers are centered for the first two and then just add to the right.

See this game. The 3 and 4 digit numbers are off center to the right
http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=90419
Last edited by WidowMakers on Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kaplowitz on Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:50 pm

Yea, i see what you mean. For some reason i was thinking that the army number could move over a little bit once it went over 100 or something, but i know thats not possible.
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Postby BelJoDoe on Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:27 pm

Thanks for the info Widow but someone told me a week or so back so I already knew. I'm glad to have you looking out for me too though and if you have anything else to add, please don't hesitate :-)

By the way, Unriggable, I will be sticking to letters and numbers but in the XML, the territories will be named also. So, if you have suggestions on which capitals I should include, I'll gladly look over and add if I agree.


Basically guys, right now I'd like input on the impassable (thick black lines). If you have any suggestions on moving the ones I've added or putting others in, please make your suggestions.
Additionally, before I make the CS (City States) map, I'd like you guys to look over the list I made earlier and see if you'd like names removed, added etc. I'd like to keep to 30 names, so try to recommend removing a capital from the list, if you want one added.

Thanks.
Hopefully I should have time on Monday to make the CS dispaly-map, so that people can see at a glance my understanding of Mibi and Unriggable's game-play suggestion.
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Postby cairnswk on Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:24 pm

BelJoDoe....hi....first time in here for me with this map....i've read back several pages....so please forgive if i cover anything that i might have missed.

When i first saw this, i was afraid about the triple digit centering, so thanks to WM for clarifiaction on that matter.

I see there are plenty of players commenting on game play, so i'll leave that well alone.

My major concerns i guess at this point in time, are:

1. the "to X17" directives....is it possible to make them stand out a little more; some appear to have better drop shadows than others.

2. are the paired regions meant to be different colours; the three? reds are very close; i can see slight difference in the some other colours, but perhaps you could consider finding some stronger variants in the other colours if they are meant to be different. Only a suggestion to help for those who don't see colour variations so well. :)
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Postby sully800 on Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:50 pm

Let me just say, I LOVE the city states idea. You could have 24 city states, which means that in 2,3,4 and 6 player games everyone would start equally. 5 player would be unequal but I believe 5 is also the least popular game type.

Each of those players starts in a capital so they get an additional bonus. Then they have massive amounts of gray to conquer to get to one another. I think you would definitely still need intermediate country bonuses along the way so people can somehow gain an advantage. I also think that you could make a much higher bonus for holding multiple capitals (I don't know just how high would be appropriate). That would encourage people to try and attack through the neutrals and get to one another, especially in 4, 5, and 6 player games.

It's a very unique play style, but I like the idea a lot. Much better than the isles or seas of gray.
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Postby BelJoDoe on Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:35 am

I like it too but I still think that SoG would make for a fun map, also.

No matter how many territories are 'playable' from the start, players always begin equally. The game automatically turns any extra territories into 'greys'.

I'd still like people to look over the list of capitals that I've drawn up as well as comments/suggestions on impassables. I only know some countries well but the Conquer Club community comes from all over the world, so please suggest/comment on where impassables should go in your own country at least, if possible. ... Thanks, guys!
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