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[Abandoned] - Indian Subcontinent

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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 13, pages 1+8)[I]

Postby bryguy on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:10 am

InkL0sed wrote:
bryguy wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:The colour scheme is too bright. Tone it down.

The surrounding land would be better if it was a shade of grey.


i agree it is to bright, but i dont like the idea of a shade of grey for the surrounding area


maybe to make it darker, make a new layer on top of everything other than the text, and color it all black, then mess around with the opacity until it looks good


Actually, I've already done that, and I kinda like it.



the grey or the opacity black?
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 13, pages 1+8)[I]

Postby InkL0sed on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:12 am

It's a black layer on top of everything at 9% opacity, with a canvas texture.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 13, pages 1+8)[I]

Postby bryguy on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:14 am

InkL0sed wrote:It's a black layer on top of everything at 9% opacity, with a canvas texture.



cool, care to show us the look?
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 13, pages 1+8)[I]

Postby InkL0sed on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:33 am

bryguy wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:It's a black layer on top of everything at 9% opacity, with a canvas texture.



cool, care to show us the look?


Update is coming up soon. :)
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 13, pages 1+8)[I]

Postby InkL0sed on Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:01 pm

Version 14:
Large:
Image
Note: my large map doesn't need [bigimg] because it's 700 x 700

Small:
Image

Major changes:
    River: I made the river very thin where it isn't a border, and removed that confusing thing saying "Not a border: --". I think this may be the solution; I think it's clearer, anyway.
    Legend: I knew the legend had some readability problems, so I played around with it, and you can see the results. What do you think? Is it ugly? Does it go well with the rest of the map? Did I go overboard?
    New Layer: Like I mentioned in my last couple of posts, I added a black layer with a canvas texture at 9% opacity on the top. Basically meaning that the entire map has been darkened, and also has a slight touch of texture. What do you guys think of the effect?

    I also added a note in the bottom saying that Sri Lanka borders Tamil Nadul. I really don't want to start drawing attack lines, but if enough people think it necessary I guess I'll have to do it.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:25 pm

InkL0sed wrote:River: I made the river very thin where it isn't a border, and removed that confusing thing saying "Not a border: --". I think this may be the solution; I think it's clearer, anyway.


Agreed. Nice change.

Legend: I knew the legend had some readability problems, so I played around with it, and you can see the results. What do you think? Is it ugly? Does it go well with the rest of the map? Did I go overboard?


It's very readable, and I don't think it contrasts too heavily.

New Layer: Like I mentioned in my last couple of posts, I added a black layer with a canvas texture at 9% opacity on the top. Basically meaning that the entire map has been darkened, and also has a slight touch of texture. What do you guys think of the effect?


Subtle, but it helps people from getting the "ZOMG NEON SIGN" feeling off of your map.

I also added a note in the bottom saying that Sri Lanka borders Tamil Nadul. I really don't want to start drawing attack lines, but if enough people think it necessary I guess I'll have to do it.


Everyone and their mother will miss that first shot. Add a seaborne route. Most people (read: 99.999%) on CC are used to the convention that if there's a sea connection, there's a line showing it.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby bryguy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:30 am

TaCktiX wrote:
I also added a note in the bottom saying that Sri Lanka borders Tamil Nadul. I really don't want to start drawing attack lines, but if enough people think it necessary I guess I'll have to do it.


Everyone and their mother will miss that first shot. Add a seaborne route. Most people (read: 99.999%) on CC are used to the convention that if there's a sea connection, there's a line showing it.


Or you could just put in a line that is dotted, like

sri lanka - - - - - other place
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby RjBeals on Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:07 pm

Overall looks good -
You need to take the bevel off the territ names. I can barely read them from my computer.
I really dislike your army circles. Nice effect on them - they look like polished glass spheres somebody placed on the map - but for me it's all I can focus on.
You really do need an attack line from sri lanka. I don't think you'll get the quench without it.
Image
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby Ogrecrusher on Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:11 pm

I have a suggestion which I think would help the map a lot.

Add the Maldives and Andaman/Nicobar Islands. This would require a re-jigging of the legend, but I think it would help gameplay for the following reasons
You could add a sea route from the Andaman Islands to Bangladesh, adding a second border to the green bonus region, then up it to a 2.
Make a new "islands" region with the following sea routes:
Maldives to Sri Lanka and Kerala
Sri Lanka to All the other islands and Tamil Nadul
Nicobar Islands to Sri Lanka and Andaman Islands
Andaman Islands to Sri Lanka, Nicobar Islands and Bangladesh.

I think this is good because it leaves a nice balance of small regions with large ones to fight over in the middle. Obviously Southern India would need to be upped in Value.

One problem I guess is the territory number, maybe you have your heart set on 30, I suppose 33 is not a good number, but I think it's worth considering. It adds good mobility to the map.

Give it some thought! :D
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby InkL0sed on Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:06 pm

OK guys, I guess I'll have to give in on this one -- I'll add a sea-route between Sri Lanka and Tamil Nadul.

I don't like the idea of adding islands -- I don't like what that would do to Southern India, and space would begin to be an issue -- but I'll give it some more thought.

And I keep forgetting to adjust those bonuses! #-o I wanted to switch Northern India and Eastern India...

Thanks for the comments, they're much appreciated.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby snufkin on Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:33 pm

The Tamil lands of the southeast are called tamil nadu - skip the last L

and I agree bout the islands (or pretty much any reasonable idea giving the map more territories..) ;) more more more!
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:08 pm

Relocate the blue coloured region to somewhere else.

It can get confusing with the blue impassable river being virtually the same colour. Use another colour for that region which is easy to distinguish from rivers.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby bryguy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:31 am

Plz remove the white shadow thingy behind the territory text on the small version
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby iancanton on Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:15 pm

InkL0sed wrote:Hmm. It's just occurred to me that it was probably Northern India that needed the +1, not Eastern. I'd like some discussion on those bonuses please.


the most important lines on any political map, of which this is one, are international boundaries, so u must ensure that u respect these where possible. it's not possible on classic because the number of territories is lower than the number of countries. on this map, however, it's just as easy to make it right as to make it wrong.

in this respect, the eastern india continent is wrong. bangladesh is not part of india, so u need to exclude it from any indian bonus. in other words, let bangladesh be in a different continent and have a bonus of +0, like world 2.1's antarctica territories.

similarly, kashmir is a disputed territory which is currently divided among india, pakistan and china, so it needs to be removed from the normal part of the northern india continent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/s ... efault.stm

i suggest that kashmir is part of both the pakistan continent and the northern india continent, so that the pakistan bonus is awarded only if kashmir is held in addition to the normal territories in pakistan and the northern india bonus is awarded only if kashmir is held in addition to the normal territories in northern india. to show this on the map, kashmir can be given magenta and blue diagonal stripes instead of a single solid colour, so that its disputed status is immediately obvious at first glance.

add haryana to northern india to reduce the chance of the first player receiving the northern india bonus from the drop. this is especially important in a 2-player game, where the advantage of playing first can be exaggerated and easily become permanent, purely because of a lucky drop.

is there a reason why the small version is so small, causing space issues on one or two of the smaller territories? why not resize it to 600 x 600, move the thumbnail to the bottom left to balance the bonus legend and move the title slightly downward to the right? the playable area can then be resized again to fill as much as possible of the 600 x 600.

i think the current bold indian colours match this map perfectly.

InkL0sed wrote:OK guys, I guess I'll have to give in on this one -- I'll add a sea-route between Sri Lanka and Tamil Nadu.


no need. just draw in the chain of small islands called adam's bridge and it'll become obvious.

http://www.ourlanka.com/maps/sri_lanka_pol01.jpg

InkL0sed wrote:I don't like the idea of adding islands -- I don't like what that would do to Southern India


agreed. i also think it would detract from the main part of the map by forcing it to be smaller.

ian. :)
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby InkL0sed on Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:52 pm

Responses in bold.
iancanton wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:Hmm. It's just occurred to me that it was probably Northern India that needed the +1, not Eastern. I'd like some discussion on those bonuses please.


the most important lines on any political map, of which this is one, are international boundaries, so u must ensure that u respect these where possible. it's not possible on classic because the number of territories is lower than the number of countries. on this map, however, it's just as easy to make it right as to make it wrong.

in this respect, the eastern india continent is wrong. bangladesh is not part of india, so u need to exclude it from any indian bonus. in other words, let bangladesh be in a different continent and have a bonus of +0, like world 2.1's antarctica territories.

similarly, kashmir is a disputed territory which is currently divided among india, pakistan and china, so it needs to be removed from the normal part of the northern india continent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/s ... efault.stm

i suggest that kashmir is part of both the pakistan continent and the northern india continent, so that the pakistan bonus is awarded only if kashmir is held in addition to the normal territories in pakistan and the northern india bonus is awarded only if kashmir is held in addition to the normal territories in northern india. to show this on the map, kashmir can be given magenta and blue diagonal stripes instead of a single solid colour, so that its disputed status is immediately obvious at first glance.

I disagree. I think it's quite hard to get it right. I realize you want accuracy, but I don't want to sacrifice gameplay for it. I am trying to design a classic-style map here, and thus geographic boundaries, rather than political ones, are, I think, more important. However, I don't want to be completely wrong and irritate those who would like accuracy. Would a change in the name of that continent satisfy you? Is there a name that might fit that general region better than "Eastern India"? Or, for that matter, "Northern India"? I invite you to find one.

add haryana to northern india to reduce the chance of the first player receiving the northern india bonus from the drop. this is especially important in a 2-player game, where the advantage of playing first can be exaggerated and easily become permanent, purely because of a lucky drop.

I like that idea, I'll change it. Don't know why that hadn't occurred to me before.

is there a reason why the small version is so small, causing space issues on one or two of the smaller territories? why not resize it to 600 x 600, move the thumbnail to the bottom left to balance the bonus legend and move the title slightly downward to the right? the playable area can then be resized again to fill as much as possible of the 600 x 600.

No reason, really. I'll see how it works.

i think the current bold indian colours match this map perfectly.

InkL0sed wrote:OK guys, I guess I'll have to give in on this one -- I'll add a sea-route between Sri Lanka and Tamil Nadu.


no need. just draw in the chain of small islands called adam's bridge and it'll become obvious.

http://www.ourlanka.com/maps/sri_lanka_pol01.jpg

Another interesting idea :) I haven't looked at that map yet, but it sounds like a good solution to me.

InkL0sed wrote:I don't like the idea of adding islands -- I don't like what that would do to Southern India


agreed. i also think it would detract from the main part of the map by forcing it to be smaller.

ian. :)
I agree, but I think I have to obey the will of the majority for now. I'll add the islands, and see what people think about them. That is, unless enough other people decide to agree with you. I'm personally hoping this happens [-o<
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby bryguy on Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:00 am

Responses in Red

iancanton wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:Hmm. It's just occurred to me that it was probably Northern India that needed the +1, not Eastern. I'd like some discussion on those bonuses please.


the most important lines on any political map, of which this is one, are international boundaries, so u must ensure that u respect these where possible. it's not possible on classic because the number of territories is lower than the number of countries. on this map, however, it's just as easy to make it right as to make it wrong.

in this respect, the eastern india continent is wrong. bangladesh is not part of india, so u need to exclude it from any indian bonus. in other words, let bangladesh be in a different continent and have a bonus of +0, like world 2.1's antarctica territories.

similarly, kashmir is a disputed territory which is currently divided among india, pakistan and china, so it needs to be removed from the normal part of the northern india continent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/s ... efault.stm

i suggest that kashmir is part of both the pakistan continent and the northern india continent, so that the pakistan bonus is awarded only if kashmir is held in addition to the normal territories in pakistan and the northern india bonus is awarded only if kashmir is held in addition to the normal territories in northern india. to show this on the map, kashmir can be given magenta and blue diagonal stripes instead of a single solid colour, so that its disputed status is immediately obvious at first glance.

I disagree. I think it's quite hard to get it right. I realize you want accuracy, but I don't want to sacrifice gameplay for it. I am trying to design a classic-style map here, and thus geographic boundaries, rather than political ones, are, I think, more important. However, I don't want to be completely wrong and irritate those who would like accuracy. Would a change in the name of that continent satisfy you? Is there a name that might fit that general region better than "Eastern India"? Or, for that matter, "Northern India"? I invite you to find one.

add haryana to northern india to reduce the chance of the first player receiving the northern india bonus from the drop. this is especially important in a 2-player game, where the advantage of playing first can be exaggerated and easily become permanent, purely because of a lucky drop.

I like that idea, I'll change it. Don't know why that hadn't occurred to me before.

is there a reason why the small version is so small, causing space issues on one or two of the smaller territories? why not resize it to 600 x 600, move the thumbnail to the bottom left to balance the bonus legend and move the title slightly downward to the right? the playable area can then be resized again to fill as much as possible of the 600 x 600.

No reason, really. I'll see how it works.
TY for noting that ian, ive been going to mention that but i keep forgetting

i think the current bold indian colours match this map perfectly.

InkL0sed wrote:OK guys, I guess I'll have to give in on this one -- I'll add a sea-route between Sri Lanka and Tamil Nadu.


no need. just draw in the chain of small islands called adam's bridge and it'll become obvious.

http://www.ourlanka.com/maps/sri_lanka_pol01.jpg

Another interesting idea :) I haven't looked at that map yet, but it sounds like a good solution to me.
I looked at it, but its a little confusing, i prefer attack lines unless u can make it clearer to me
InkL0sed wrote:I don't like the idea of adding islands -- I don't like what that would do to Southern India


agreed. i also think it would detract from the main part of the map by forcing it to be smaller.

ian. :)
I agree, but I think I have to obey the will of the majority for now. I'll add the islands, and see what people think about them. That is, unless enough other people decide to agree with you. I'm personally hoping this happens [-o< I personally think that the islands would ruin the map
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby iancanton on Fri May 02, 2008 2:14 am

InkL0sed wrote:I am trying to design a classic-style map here, and thus geographic boundaries, rather than political ones, are, I think, more important.

sri lanka is both political and geographical, since it is an island nation, but all other territories on this map, without exception, are based on political boundaries (countries and states). examples of geographical territories might be western ghats or coromandel coast, which are features of the land.

it is therefore important to acknowledge international borders where possible, unless this happens, for example, to unbalance the gameplay by giving a consistent and unjustified advantage to players who start in a certain part of the map.

the indian subcontinent does not lend itself to neat classic-style gameplay (unlike the usa map, where the average south dakotan couldn't care less whether his state ended up in the rockies or the great lakes). we can come pretty close to classic gameplay by including only india and pakistan, making the smaller countries part of the unplayable area (or keeping those countries in the game, but awarding zero bonus to them); the usa map produces classic gameplay by excluding the inconvenient states of alaska and hawaii, so something similar has been done before.

even then, there's no satisfactory classic-style solution to kashmir where, to the casual outside observer, an average of 10 or 20 people are killed every week of the year for the sake of a line on a map. it simply doesn't do justice to anyone either to take sides on this or ignore the fact that things aren't normal (it would be like doing a present-day holy land map that pretends there's no palestinian problem), hence my proposal of a shared bonus.

as an aside, we have seen on the new europa map that feelings about such matters can run high (though the discussion there is somewhat mild when compared with the quenched thread for the original europe map, where the mapmaker was called a nazi and someone else was banned for implying a physical solution outside cc).

on an unrelated note, pondicherry needs to be moved southward. it actually borders tamil nadu on one side and the sea on the other.

http://pondicherry.nic.in/

this map has a lot of potential. i look forward to seeing the indian mainland grow a bit in size soon!

ian. :)
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby t-o-m on Sat May 03, 2008 6:34 pm

the bevel looks disgusting,
the mini-map needs fixing,
the terit names are barely readable becasue of the glow,
the sea doesnt look like sea,
i recognise that it says sri-lank boarders tamil... but could you have a link there because the text there doesnt stand out enough
the "immpassable boarder" title is almost as big as the title - making it look like ur trying to fill up space,
^you have way too much free space^,
the brown looks like poo,
the actual cont is sunk into the surronding land area making it look like its below the sea,
on the green cont, you have some random text saying "west" - why?
its quite confusing when the impassables go through a terit - its confusing that bengal connects to east nepal,
this doesnt represent india at all, the colours are really sub-par, i think you should include their culture in here because this really doesnt remind me of india
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sat May 03, 2008 6:59 pm

Ruben Cassar wrote:Relocate the blue coloured region to somewhere else.

It can get confusing with the blue impassable river being virtually the same colour. Use another colour for that region which is easy to distinguish from rivers.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby InkL0sed on Sat May 03, 2008 7:01 pm

Ruben Cassar wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:Relocate the blue coloured region to somewhere else.

It can get confusing with the blue impassable river being virtually the same colour. Use another colour for that region which is easy to distinguish from rivers.


Don't worry, I saw that.

Replies to some of the more exasperating posts may or may not come soon -- I have AP exams to study for.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby bryguy on Tue May 06, 2008 7:06 am

the purple continent and the purple legend text are different shades of purple, could u make the purple legend text a little brighter?
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby oaktown on Tue May 06, 2008 9:08 pm

I see that the bonuses haven't been correctly updated - I look forward to seeing what you do with them, because it continues to be a concern of mine.

But my larger issue with this map is still that nothing about this map says India. There is so much you could do with this to capture the many flavors of the subcontinent. Where's ganesha? The himalayas? Temples? The religious and economic importance of the Ganges?

And graphically I'm not too thrilled with the latest attempt at the river... now it just looks sad and stringy.
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby t-o-m on Fri May 09, 2008 1:33 pm

the glow doesnt help the terit names, just makes them harder to read. maybe increase the spread a lil bit?
or remove the glow and add a small stroke if you want something there (which i think you should have something)
the brown needs adressing
so does the sea
the beveled look on the land looks weird and not land-like, and even weirder that the actual conts of the map/terits of the map dont have the same bevel; it almost looks like its meant to be under the sea!
dont like the colours either.
much more but im in a rush

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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby rocky mountain on Fri May 09, 2008 7:42 pm

the legend seems pretty dark... could you lighten it a bit? its hard to see that it says "Himalayas"
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Re: Indian Subcontinent(Version 14, pages 1+9)[I]

Postby gimil on Sun May 11, 2008 7:50 pm

Hm, where to start.

This map has definetly had a large improvment since I last seem it. Its much cleaner and more cositant. Dont get to over confident I still have more to say :P

First the bevel effect that is making india look like its sinking under the rest of the land is a no-no personally. Beveling the land upwards slighty may make he happier but down is definetly a no for me.

The army circles are far to strong in apperance and become very distracting. My suggestion would be to simple reduce the opacity of them greatly. Shouldnt need much more than that.

The bevel on the terr names isnt so great either. It makes the names difficult to ready. There is a million better ways to use layer effects on texts. Also while were talking about text the stroke you used for the legends is to think and to strong. Really makes it negativly stand out.

On a final point the mini-map I think would look better if you did a nice dark outline around each continent.

Ok I think thats enought for now. Keep up the good work bud.
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