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[Abandoned] - Zodiac Map

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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby rsacheli on Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:35 am

its possible but not practical... it would make this map look gaudier than it already does... i looked beautiful before the rebuild... but thats another story... the way its set up tho, the 3 signs that make up a season are next to each other...
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:00 pm

rsacheli wrote:its possible but not practical... it would make this map look gaudier than it already does... i looked beautiful before the rebuild... but thats another story... the way its set up tho, the 3 signs that make up a season are next to each other...

Okay, well I suppose that works.
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby army of nobunaga on Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:09 pm

My first impressions like 2 weeks ago..

Bad graphics, looks like a chemistry stick and ball set.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Longer impressions after looking and studying for 10-15 mins today...

Graphics really not bad, just plain. And the game play looks ok. ... As it stands it will be Virgo for the win because of the 4 control points and a +6 bonus... but even if/when you fix that, It will be an aries for the win kind of map. Another point. Why would a black hole be the center of a zodiac constellation? Is there not some sort of unifying zodiac symbol you could put in the middle?

Ok looked longer... 2 more points that I think would sell this map to a lot of other people.

In the middle you have lines going to the center, the Black hole... And for good gameplay - you HAVE to keep this central figure, and it was pretty intuitive of you to the zodiac signs touching around that inner circle ( i.e. leo8 and gem.13). Very well done, xcept the lines into the center. it clutters and looks like a busy spider web. Instead of lines going towards the central peice, could you not just have a central tert (the current black hole) and in legend say that the black hole is connected to territorys with this symbol Image

you could make that symbol opaqu and on top of your squares .. like leo 8 and gem 13 they would still have the line between them but not the spiderweblines to the center, the symbol could connect the center to leo8 and gem 13 and the rest of them.




Ok last thought... I would take the pics of the zodiacs and make them very very see-through and put them in the backgrounds behind their clusters, if possible.





Image



my 2 cents... look forward to seeing this map evolve.
b
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby ender516 on Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:03 pm

rsacheli wrote:added numbers, added to the background...

Click image to enlarge.
image

The question of how to indicate the seasons and the elements on each constellation is still open. I see that colour has been used for the elements, and although I would more easily associate a colour with a season, the fact that the three constellations that make up a season are adjacent makes such a colour scheme impractical. Therefore I would suggest using different shapes for (or behind) the troop circles. For example. put a snowflake behind the winter circles, a sunburst behind the summer ones, a flower (daisy?) behind the spring ones, and a leaf (tipped downward, as if falling) behind the autumn (fall) ones.
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:36 pm

ender516 wrote:The question of how to indicate the seasons and the elements on each constellation is still open. I see that colour has been used for the elements, and although I would more easily associate a colour with a season, the fact that the three constellations that make up a season are adjacent makes such a colour scheme impractical. Therefore I would suggest using different shapes for (or behind) the troop circles. For example. put a snowflake behind the winter circles, a sunburst behind the summer ones, a flower (daisy?) behind the spring ones, and a leaf (tipped downward, as if falling) behind the autumn (fall) ones.

Hey, that's a good idea! Would add a nice graphical element as well.
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby rsacheli on Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:47 am

army of nobunaga wrote:My first impressions like 2 weeks ago..

Bad graphics, looks like a chemistry stick and ball set.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Longer impressions after looking and studying for 10-15 mins today...

Graphics really not bad, just plain. And the game play looks ok. ... As it stands it will be Virgo for the win because of the 4 control points and a +6 bonus... but even if/when you fix that, It will be an aries for the win kind of map. Another point. Why would a black hole be the center of a zodiac constellation? Is there not some sort of unifying zodiac symbol you could put in the middle?

Ok looked longer... 2 more points that I think would sell this map to a lot of other people.

In the middle you have lines going to the center, the Black hole... And for good gameplay - you HAVE to keep this central figure, and it was pretty intuitive of you to the zodiac signs touching around that inner circle ( i.e. leo8 and gem.13). Very well done, xcept the lines into the center. it clutters and looks like a busy spider web. Instead of lines going towards the central peice, could you not just have a central tert (the current black hole) and in legend say that the black hole is connected to territorys with this symbol

you could make that symbol opaqu and on top of your squares .. like leo 8 and gem 13 they would still have the line between them but not the spiderweblines to the center, the symbol could connect the center to leo8 and gem 13 and the rest of them.




Ok last thought... I would take the pics of the zodiacs and make them very very see-through and put them in the backgrounds behind their clusters, if possible.



my 2 cents... look forward to seeing this map evolve.
b


Not sure I understand the idea of black-hole connection thing...

The reason for the "black-hole" is because I was going to use the Sun, which does have a connection to the zodiac in astrology... but it would not only cause some confusion as to why it would rest/decay... but it would also require a bright center which would cause a strain due to the darkness of the map as a whole...

as for the "images" faintly behind... i had thought of that, but if you can find someone who would be willing to create them, so that I dont have any questions of copyright infringement then ill do it... but I will not use someone elses image without there permission... everything I have is my own creation...
Last edited by rsacheli on Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby rsacheli on Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:49 am

ender516 wrote:The question of how to indicate the seasons and the elements on each constellation is still open. I see that colour has been used for the elements, and although I would more easily associate a colour with a season, the fact that the three constellations that make up a season are adjacent makes such a colour scheme impractical. Therefore I would suggest using different shapes for (or behind) the troop circles. For example. put a snowflake behind the winter circles, a sunburst behind the summer ones, a flower (daisy?) behind the spring ones, and a leaf (tipped downward, as if falling) behind the autumn (fall) ones.


I like this idea! look for the implementation in the next update!
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby rsacheli on Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:43 am

Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby ender516 on Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:55 pm

That's pretty much the idea, but I had hoped to have the graphics extend outside the circles since the troop numbers will pretty much obscure these. The problem is the tight packing of the map. If you can change the coloured circles to coloured icons, it should work better.
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:02 pm

ender516 wrote:That's pretty much the idea, but I had hoped to have the graphics extend outside the circles since the troop numbers will pretty much obscure these. The problem is the tight packing of the map. If you can change the coloured circles to coloured icons, it should work better.

Yeah, and I can hardly tell those are flowers (I originally thought they were rocks :?)
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:16 pm

Is there a connection between Taurus 7 and Gemini 9? Aquarius 6 and Pisces 8? Aries 3 and Pisces 16?

This looks like an interesting map, overall. Most of the continents are really big, but I don't know what you can do about that. Maybe increase the territory bonus to 1 per 2, or start every other territory with neutral 1 so people have less to conquer to take a single bonus.
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby rsacheli on Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:19 pm

ender516 wrote:That's pretty much the idea, but I had hoped to have the graphics extend outside the circles since the troop numbers will pretty much obscure these. The problem is the tight packing of the map. If you can change the coloured circles to coloured icons, it should work better.


As you said... Space is an issue... To use an icon as the circle, would require more space than I have to work with...
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby rsacheli on Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:27 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:Is there a connection between Taurus 7 and Gemini 9? Aquarius 6 and Pisces 8? Aries 3 and Pisces 16?

This looks like an interesting map, overall. Most of the continents are really big, but I don't know what you can do about that. Maybe increase the territory bonus to 1 per 2, or start every other territory with neutral 1 so people have less to conquer to take a single bonus.


No connections between any of those
Increasing the territory bonus would put whoever goes first at an even bigger advantage...
Making the neutrals 1 each... That would also allow the first player much easier access to their nearest opponent right away giving them an advantage... I've tried to rectify this by making it so there is a limit to the random starting territs depending on the number of players... (see first post)
The biggest problem I forsee in gameplay is manual placement... If someone were to stack all 60 extra on one territory... Then add the 10 they get as a starting bonus... they easily take a good portion of the map even with not so great dice...
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:58 pm

Ah, I apologize...

rsacheli wrote:Each player will start with an equal number of random territories. Any undesignated territories will be neutral with 2-5 units (at random).

2 players = 30 Territories each – 59 random neutrals + neutral black hole
3 players = 30 Territories each – 29 random neutrals + neutral black hole
4 players = 25 Territories each – 19 random neutrals + neutral black hole
5 players = 20 Territories each – 19 random neutrals + neutral black hole
6 players = 18 Territories each – 11 random neutrals + neutral black hole
7 players = 16 Territories each – 7 random neutrals + neutral black hole
8 players = 14 Territories each – 7 random neutrals + neutral black hole

You can't do that. The only possible random neutral scheme is the default one, under which territories are evenly divided between all players (except in 2-player games in which they are evenly divided between both players and a "neutral player") before the remainder become neutral. You can have non-random neutrals and set Starting Positions but that's it. What you call, 'randomized'.

OR possibly create a new game play option that allows the choice of how to start a game with 4 different drop options (Map Default, Randomized, Clustered, Kingdom [1 starting point]).

This idea for a new game play option is fairly simple. However could be rather difficult to implement w/o some modification to the XML file for every map.
Map Default – whatever the original option was for the map
Randomized – Use every territ, all excess would be neutral.
Clustered – Random starting area (Majority of starting territs grouped together), all territs used, excess neutral. This option would give VERY large bonuses right off the bat for most maps.
Kingdom – One starting point for each player, Approximately equal distance from all any other player (circular maps would be evenly spaced around the outside, something like Waterloo would be spread throughout the entirety of the map, etc.)
If an option is chosen that is more-or-less the Map Default, the Map Default will be used.

Take this to the XML suggestion thread, though I don't know your chances of being picked up. Clustered and Kingdom both look computationally tricky (though not necessarily impossible). Again, Map Default is the same as Randomized (except Starting Positions but I think those would be special anyway).
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby rsacheli on Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:Ah, I apologize...

rsacheli wrote:Each player will start with an equal number of random territories. Any undesignated territories will be neutral with 2-5 units (at random).

2 players = 30 Territories each – 59 random neutrals + neutral black hole
3 players = 30 Territories each – 29 random neutrals + neutral black hole
4 players = 25 Territories each – 19 random neutrals + neutral black hole
5 players = 20 Territories each – 19 random neutrals + neutral black hole
6 players = 18 Territories each – 11 random neutrals + neutral black hole
7 players = 16 Territories each – 7 random neutrals + neutral black hole
8 players = 14 Territories each – 7 random neutrals + neutral black hole

You can't do that. The only possible random neutral scheme is the default one, under which territories are evenly divided between all players (except in 2-player games in which they are evenly divided between both players and a "neutral player") before the remainder become neutral. You can have non-random neutrals and set Starting Positions but that's it. What you call, 'randomized'.


hmmmmmm...
so there is no way to actually set the max number of territs per player without designating?
a 2 player and 3 player game would start with 39 each...
4 would be 29...
5 - 23...
6 - 19...
7 - 17...
8 - 14...

which really only affects the games of 5 and fewer players... but that really gives the 1st player an advantage... perhaps changing the territ bonus to less would be an option... maybe 1 reinforcement for every 4 or 4.5 territs? but that would make the games with 6-8 players start much slower...
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby ender516 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:46 am

Small point: if the Black Hole is a killer neutral, then the number of troops it starts with is the number it will reset to.

The use of starting positions can sometimes tweak the total number of regions each player starts with, but I haven't had time to play with the numbers much yet.

The reinforcement rate does not have to be linear: for example, it can be 1 for every 2 up to a point, then 1 for every 3 up to another, or just about anything you want. You can also put a cap on it, which was done for the Hive map.
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby iancanton on Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:22 am

army of nobunaga wrote:It will be an aries for the win kind of map.

u can fix this by renaming taurus 8, 9 and 10 as aries, then moving taurus outward to the southwest. the map otherwise suffers because the two smallest bonus zones are in isolated locations, while all of the largest ones can be attacked by the black hole. that's the wrong way round, so putting aries close to the middle rectifies matters in a big way. removing the virgo-scorpion also helps, as does letting libra connect to either the black hole or to a decaying region.

ian. :)
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby rsacheli on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:20 am

iancanton wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:It will be an aries for the win kind of map.

u can fix this by renaming taurus 8, 9 and 10 as aries, then moving taurus outward to the southwest. the map otherwise suffers because the two smallest bonus zones are in isolated locations, while all of the largest ones can be attacked by the black hole. that's the wrong way round, so putting aries close to the middle rectifies matters in a big way. removing the virgo-scorpion also helps, as does letting libra connect to either the black hole or to a decaying region.

ian. :)


Rearranging is no small matter... Perhaps adding a couple more connections to make holding either more difficult? To move either of the smaller ones I side, would cause the larger ones they are replacing much more strained for space in this already tight space... Such as: moving Aries inside and Taurus out... That would put Taurus almost completely north and south... And would completely change the flow around the entire map, not to mention that it would also change the order around which is currently chronological... If I were to instead add one or two more connections to each from closer to the center would this help to keep these in check?
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby rsacheli on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:30 am

What if I were to add a worm hole for each season that can attack all other worm holes and select territs (making sure Aries and libra and cancer are all connected to the worm holes)
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.3 on First post and page12)

Postby iancanton on Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:26 am

rsacheli wrote:Rearranging is no small matter... Perhaps adding a couple more connections to make holding either more difficult?

u mean it would be difficult to move the constellations? i didn't think it was that hard.

rsacheli wrote:moving Aries inside and Taurus out... That would put Taurus almost completely north and south... And would completely change the flow around the entire map, not to mention that it would also change the order around which is currently chronological... If I were to instead add one or two more connections to each from closer to the center would this help to keep these in check?

moving aries to the inside doesn't change the order at all: still pisces, aries, taurus then gemini - u can break the pisces-taurus link to make the order more obvious if needed. if u're pushed for space, then aries can go even closer to the black hole than taurus 10 is just now. we really need fewer connections to the largest constellations relative to the smallest two. the largest 4 constellations can be reached very easily from almost anywhere because of the black hole. this, combined with the decay (another reason i advocate moving aries so that it connects with the black hole), makes them extremely unattractive propositions.

rsacheli wrote:What if I were to add a worm hole for each season that can attack all other worm holes and select territs (making sure Aries and libra and cancer are all connected to the worm holes)

we can certainly try this one!

do u have spring and fall the wrong way round (for the northern hemisphere, at least)?

try to make the decaying stars visually different, for example by having them emit some sort of glow.

ian. :)
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby rsacheli on Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:19 pm

Moving them is easy but doing without moving more than two becomes the difficult part... But I'll play with it...

I don't understand how you think fall and spring are reversed... Go clockwise around the circle... Winter, spring, summer, fall...

How about a slight inner glow on those connected to the blackhole? Tho personally I think that might make it look too busy I'll play with this too...

To add to the graphics I was considering putting in some "rifts in space" that would be like impassable borders... This would help to clarify confusion as to if those listed in a previous post are connected...
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby ballong on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:05 pm

rsacheli wrote:
Winter – Ares, Pisces, and Aquarius
Spring – Capricorn, Sagittarius, and Scorpio
Summer – Libra, Virgo, and Leo
Fall – Cancer, Gemini, and Taurus


This does not fit with what signs the sun is in during different seasons.. and not the "cosmic season"s either.. Did you make it up or something?
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby ender516 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:11 pm

Yes, somebody questioned this earlier, and I thought, hmm, winter and summer look okay from an astrological point of view, so I let it ride. But these are messed up.

If you are talking Western astrology, the dates are:
Aries March 21 to April 20.
Taurus April 21 to May 20.
Gemini May 21 to June 21.
Cancer June 22 to July 22.
Leo July 23 to August 22.
Virgo August 23 to September 22.
Libra September 23 to October 22.
Scorpio October 23 to November 22.
Sagittarius November 23 to December 21.
Capricorn December 22 to January 20.
Aquarius January 21 to February 19.
Pisces February 20 to March 20.

As far as I remember, the sun's actual position is shifted approximately two signs from this alignment, what with the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. ;)

From the northern hemisphere's point of view, taking account of the equinoxes and solstices, I would call Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces the winter signs; Aries, Taurus, and Gemini, spring; Cancer, Leo, and Virgo, summer; and Libra, Scorpio, and Sagittarius, autumn or fall.
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby rsacheli on Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:47 am

ender516 wrote:Yes, somebody questioned this earlier, and I thought, hmm, winter and summer look okay from an astrological point of view, so I let it ride. But these are messed up.

If you are talking Western astrology, the dates are:
Aries March 21 to April 20.
Taurus April 21 to May 20.
Gemini May 21 to June 21.
Cancer June 22 to July 22.
Leo July 23 to August 22.
Virgo August 23 to September 22.
Libra September 23 to October 22.
Scorpio October 23 to November 22.
Sagittarius November 23 to December 21.
Capricorn December 22 to January 20.
Aquarius January 21 to February 19.
Pisces February 20 to March 20.

As far as I remember, the sun's actual position is shifted approximately two signs from this alignment, what with the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. ;)

From the northern hemisphere's point of view, taking account of the equinoxes and solstices, I would call Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces the winter signs; Aries, Taurus, and Gemini, spring; Cancer, Leo, and Virgo, summer; and Libra, Scorpio, and Sagittarius, autumn or fall.


Ok, wow, i didnt realize i messed that up... and it goes chronologically counter-clockwise...
fixing that now
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Re: Zodiac Map(v6.3.4 on First post and page 13)

Postby rsacheli on Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:08 am

Click image to enlarge.
image
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