[Abandoned] - Switzerland

[Evil DIMwit]

I need more comments on gameplay before working on graphics
but almost all comments were about the bg

Maybe there's not that much wrong with the gameplay.

The only complaint I have: The bonus for founding members seems too low. There is no way to defend them from fewer than four territories and together they border seven other territories. Compare that to the Italian cities which can be defended easily with one territory; the founding members should be worth at least three or four (probably only three, given the highly distributed gameplay style).

[pamoa]

Highways are difficult to hold, but the two bonuses should help (A1-german / A2 - italian)
You have 22 german territories, with a +3 bonus each set of 6... For example in Berlin1961 we have 15 russian territories with a +5 bonus for 8 territories.
Maybe you could increase the number of required territories for this bonus and adjust the bonus you want to give.
Italian bonus is very easy, Bellinzona/Lugano are coded? And maybe add locarno? (3 italian/7 tourist).
Anyway a +1 isn't a big problem if a player will not start with this bonus.

what do you think German speaking cities +4 each 7 or +6 each 11
I don't want to mix language cities with tourist resorts but the two Italian speaking cities will be coded as starting position
tourist resort bonus can be increased to +2 each 4

I like the way the bonuses work, but I'd also like to see a few of the major cities giving auto-deploys and so on.
Oh, and those are original graphics, right ?

I don't like the idea of adding another bonus level with autodeploy
I think it isn't fitting with bonus for territories set concept
the map I used isn't original but as it is a draft you won't recognize it when map is finished

The bonus for founding members seems too low. There is no way to defend them from fewer than four territories and together they border seven other territories. Compare that to the Italian cities which can be defended easily with one territory; the founding members should be worth at least three or four (probably only three, given the highly distributed gameplay style).

to be exact Italian speaking cities are 2 and both territories should be defended
but I guess you mean it is easy to hold all 4 southern cities with one defending territory so you have to conquer 4 to get +1
I was thinking about adding the Simplon pass road from Brig to Milano so it is a bit more open in south


it seems you guys think the bonus scale should be higher so here is my proposition

4 founding members +3 (prev. +2)
22 German cities +5 each set of 7 (prev. +3 /6)
8 French cities +3 each set of 4 (prev. +2 /4)
2 Italian cities +1
8 tourist resorts +3 each set of 4 (prev. +1 /3)
6 foreign cities +2 each set of 3 (prev. +1 /3)
13 A1 cities +9 (prev. +7)
10 A2 cities +7 (prev. +6)

[pamoa]

a Swiss map by a Swiss SWITZERLAND v02 new features : bonus structure, bg, short swiss history

Click image to enlarge.

[Scania N113]

I am actually a member of your group Le Clan. But I need to type all the things in English instead of French so as to make sure that all people understand.

I like plain geography map very much, and I would like to give you some suggestions for this map. Firstly I suggest changing the title of this map from Switzerland to Swiss Cities. If you name it Switzerland, people might have an interpretation that the map is made up of the states in Switzerland. If you change it to Swiss Cities, people will know immediately that the lands in this map are points, but not areas.

Secondly, I know that you need the red colour and the white colour in this map because they are the main colours of the Swiss national flag. However I think that using the red colour to represent non-playable area is not very appropriate. if you interchange the red and the white, the effect may be much better. The main reason to explain this is that the red in this map is so sharp that it will distract people's attention from the main area.

Thirdly, I do not think the foreign cities in this map are really needed unless you find something that they are related to Switzerland. If you think that you need some foreign cities to make the map become more interesting, I suggest adding some cities that are closer to Switzerland. For example Feldkirch in Austria, Lindau in Germany (Munchen is too far away), Genoa in Italy (Milan is also too far away), etc. Also, Lyon can be cut firstly because its location is wrong here, and it has no relationship with Switzerland.

Fourthly, it is about the gameplay of this map. I highly appreciate the bonus because it is very interesting indeed. However I do not agree with +7 and +9 for A1 Highway and A2 Highway repectively. This is too much for a map with such number of lands! Also, I do not agree +5 for 7 German Speakers because they are very near to each other, so it is very easy to hold 7.

In conclusion this is a very decent map, and it has potential! I hope that my suggestions and ideas are useful to you.

[pamoa]

thanks for droping by and giving feedback

Firstly I suggest changing the title of this map from Switzerland to Swiss Cities. If you name it Switzerland, people might have an interpretation that the map is made up of the states in Switzerland. If you change it to Swiss Cities, people will know immediately that the lands in this map are points, but not areas.

actually it is called Switzerland because the real title on the map itself is Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera

Secondly, I know that you need the red colour and the white colour in this map because they are the main colours of the Swiss national flag. However I think that using the red colour to represent non-playable area is not very appropriate. if you interchange the red and the white, the effect may be much better. The main reason to explain this is that the red in this map is so sharp that it will distract people's attention from the main area.

sorry but I won't use the red cross flag
as you probably know red cross was founded by Henri Dunant in Geneva and he used a reverted Swiss flag as emblem red cross on a white background
and this is a basic graphic choice I made for this map

Thirdly, I do not think the foreign cities in this map are really needed unless you find something that they are related to Switzerland. If you think that you need some foreign cities to make the map become more interesting, I suggest adding some cities that are closer to Switzerland. For example Feldkirch in Austria, Lindau in Germany (Munchen is too far away), Genoa in Italy (Milan is also too far away), etc. Also, Lyon can be cut firstly because its location is wrong here, and it has no relationship with Switzerland.

as said before foreign cities were added to explain the position of Switzerland in Europe as a crossroad
then I used the cities over 1 million inhabitants around Switzerland and added Vaduz for Liechtenstein
they are not located at their geographical position except Milano and Vaduz
Genova is on the Ligurian shore of the Mediterranean sea smaller than Milano and 3 time farer
Lyon is related to French speaking part of Switzerland as the nearest large city in France
you will found more Swiss French speakers who have been their than in Basel
München as capital of Bavaria on of the richest Land of Germany which whom Switzerland is making a lot of commercial exchange
Stuttgart and Strasbourg were chosen only because of their size and position on the north south European axis

Fourthly, it is about the gameplay of this map. I highly appreciate the bonus because it is very interesting indeed. However I do not agree with +7 and +9 for A1 Highway and A2 Highway repectively. This is too much for a map with such number of lands! Also, I do not agree +5 for 7 German Speakers because they are very near to each other, so it is very easy to hold 7.

it is not so easy to hold 7, 10 or even 13 position in a game
the bonus is high because the resources you need to get them is high
maybe the German Speakers bonus should be lowered to +4

[Evil DIMwit]

The new bonuses look good. The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road. I don't know if you need to reform the whole road system or if you can get away with just the Vaduz-München section; the red roads go very well in the rest of the map.

[thenobodies80]

The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road.

Agree.
The new background is nice. Good choice
About the roads, try to use a dark red, maybe 7c0100 instead of ad0200.
Graphics is good, i don't think you have to work again on it . You could fix everything later

Bonuses:
Without considering the values of bonuses but only the number of regions required,

what do you think German speaking cities +4 each 7 or +6 each 11

Each 11 is perfect, only 2% of probabilities that a player starts with that bonus.

I don't want to mix language cities with tourist resorts but the two Italian speaking cities will be coded as starting position

Those 2 starting positions are good: balance 1v1 games (both players will start with 16 regions) and the small bonus has to be taken.

but tourist resort bonus can be increased to +2 each 4

I think you should increase the number of regions required for tourist, french and foreign.
Maybe tourist and french each 5.
Foreign each 4.
With this values a player should have always less than 10% of probabilities to start with one of these bonuses (i think ).


Have a nice day

[Evil DIMwit]

[
Maybe tourist and french each 5.
Foreign each 4.
With this values a player should have always less than 10% of probabilities to start with one of these bonuses (i think ).

You mean, French any 5 and Foreign any 4. There wouldn't be enough for another bonus.
I haven't run the numbers, but would it help bring the starting drop rate down if, say, three of the French territories were in a start position set?

Edit: I went ahead and did run some numbers, and in order to get less than 10%, it looks like you'd have to either raise the bonus requirements to 6 each for French/tourist and 5 for foreign, or you'd have to implement more start positions. The latter, I think, would be far preferable: If for each bonus type you split them into two halves and make each half into a starting position set, your probability in a 3-player game of someone dropping a bonus for French and Tourist falls to less than 2%, and for foreign cities, of course, becomes zero.

[pamoa]

The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road. I don't know if you need to reform the whole road system or if you can get away with just the Vaduz-München section; the red roads go very well in the rest of the map.

About the roads, try to use a dark red, maybe 7c0100 instead of ad0200.
Graphics is good, i don't think you have to work again on it . You could fix everything later

you are both right about roads I already knew it but I will work on it when I have time

about bonuses as Evil DIMwit noted French and tourist are each 4 in order to give twice the bonus if you hold them all
in the same way German is divided by 3

4 founding members +3 (prev. +2)
22 German cities +5 each set of 7 (prev. +3 /6)
8 French cities +3 each set of 4 (prev. +2 /4)
2 Italian cities +1
8 tourist resorts +3 each set of 4 (prev. +1 /3)
6 foreign cities +2 each set of 3 (prev. +1 /3)
13 A1 cities +9 (prev. +7)
10 A2 cities +7 (prev. +6)

for the starting territories xml I was thinking coding 3 groups of starting positions

Code: Select all

<positions>
 <position>
  <territory>Lugano</territory>
  <territory>Davos</territory>
  <territory>Gstaad</territory>
  <territory>Stutgart</territory>
  <territory>Lyon</territory>
  <territory>Genève</territory>
  <territory>Sion</territory>
 </position>
 <position>
  <territory>Bellinzona</territory>
  <territory>Verbier</territory>
  <territory>Sankt Moritz</territory>
  <territory>Vaduz</territory>
  <territory>Strassbourg</territory>
  <territory>Lausanne</territory>
  <territory>La Chaux-de-Fonds</territory>
 </position>
 <position>
  <territory>Locarno</territory>
  <territory>Zermatt</territory>
  <territory>München</territory>
  <territory>Milano</territory>
  <territory>Neuchâtel</territory>
  <territory>Delémont</territory>
 </position>
</positions>

[thenobodies80]

I thought there were only two starting positions.

With the new infos, french and tourist bonuses are ok

So,
48 regions on your map
20 starting positions
No starting neutrals
20 germans (+2)
2 italian
6 foreign
8 tourist
6 french (+2)
4 founders
2 shared french/german

Players will start with a good numbers of regions in all games except in a 4 players, in which all players will start with 12 regions (a possible advantage for the first player). Anway, you can fix this later with the gameplay guys
french and tourist regions are no longer a problem but i'm still worried about the german regions.

about bonuses as Evil DIMwit noted French and tourist are each 4 in order to give twice the bonus if you hold them all
in the same way German is divided by 3

I like the idea, but i think that also german should be given twice.
you have 28 regions not coded as SP
in a 1vs1 game each player has 10 SP and 9 regions. 10 are neutral .
Some examples:

• if the neutrals are all german regions (100%*):
  
  • you have 12 german regions and 6 not german.
  • only if each player will have 3 'not german' regions, each player will have 6 german regions.
  • If 'not german' regions aren't splitted equally a player will start with a +5 bonus
• if only 3 'not german' regions are neutral (75%*) :
  
  • you have 15 german and 3 'not german'
  • 1 player could have 2 'not german' and 7 german, the other player will have 1 'not german' and 8 german.
  • 1 player could have 3 'not german' and 6 german, the other one 9 german
• if the neutrals are half german and half 'not german' (50%*):
  
  • You have 17 german and 1 'not german'
  • both players will start with the +5 bonus
• if the neutrals are all 'not german' regions (25%*)
  
  • you have 18 german
  • both players will start with the +5 bonus

* percentage of german neutral

With a bonus assigned the first player could attack with 14 troops on a single region instead of 9 destroying the opponents, even before this one starts to play.
If i'm not wrong, you could assign the bonus twice (like french and tourist ), increasing the number of required regions to 10 (or 11) and then fix the bonus value.
Nobody will start with the bonus

Have a nice day

[pamoa]

wow thenobodies80 are you studying statistics or some are you just a math geek
don't misunderstand me I really appreciate your implication

in fact I started the map with 47 territs which is far more better
so I'll remove München from the map (for your eyes only Scania N113 )
so foreign cities are on the map as destination cities for main highways which stick better to the crossroad of Europe theme
the bonus will be +1 each 2 (starting will be Stuttgart / Milano / Lyon)

for German cities it seems statistics speaks for dividing by 2
so the bonus will be +7 each 11

[Evil DIMwit]

Huh. Better get this map out fast while there's still a Switzerland.

[pamoa]

Huh. Better get this map out fast while there's still a Switzerland.

all this story because Geneva police dare to arrest his son who was beating up two domestic in an Geneva hotel

[Dreamer]

Nice idea! At last there's a new styled map! I suggest you put some tunnels like the Simplon, Grand St. Bernard or Lötschberg as well. Some bank, chocolate, cheese bonus could be interesting too. Nice start anyway, looking forward to playing on it!

[nick_horny]

As a real Swiss (Swiss-German) Guy, I can say that you have done a realy good job with this map. I'm looking forward to play this one. Thank you mate

[pamoa]

a Swiss map by a Swiss SWITZERLAND v03 new features : bonus structure, Adelboden removed, new roads in the Alps

Click image to enlarge.

[porkenbeans]

Nice map pamoa,
There are a lot of things that I like about this one, but for brevity's sake, I will only comment on what I don't like.

#1.) Your name should not be a part of the legend. there is room for it on the lower right side of the map, if you just rotate it 90 deg. counter clockwise.

2.) The history lesson at the top left of the map is really inappropriate, unless it is a part of the gameplay. I would consider just using some other Swiss icon or flag in its place.

3.) The legend has rectangles to represent circles. Not a biggy, but there seems to be plenty of room, if you shift things around a bit, to replace the rectangles with circles.

Other than these three very minor details, I believe that you have got a winner here. Good luck on the quench pamoa.

[Evil DIMwit]

I don't mind the history lesson at all. It's quite interesting.

[porkenbeans]

I don't mind the history lesson at all. It's quite interesting.

I do not mind it either, if, it were part of the game. Otherwise it will provide confusion, for those that do not know, it is meant only as a history lesson. I would rather see some sort of icon or image that is universally associated with Switzerland. Be it an image of the Matterhorn, the flag, something ski related, A Swiss clock, a Swiss army knife, Swiss cheese etc...
If it can be related to the game and provide some sort of reason for being there, Anything more than a simple universal icon, will only clutter up the map and subtract from its playability as a game. If you truly want the map to be some sort of history lesson, by all means do it. there are a few really good maps at CC that pull it off fairly well. And those are the ones that incorporate the lesson into the game play itself. Not merely add some useless text, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the game at all.

[pamoa]

sorry porkenbeans but I will disagree with almost all your comments

if you read the history lesson once believing it is part of the gameplay legend
then you have learned something playing CC
besides as you read it once you won't read it a second time when you look for bonus instructions

I put my signature where I want
and once read ...

about putting some idiot tourist symbol of Switzerland
you would never think about a map of USA with some cow-boys, sheriffs stagecoaches and Indians chasing them
I won't do it for Switzerland I respect myself and my country
this is a map not a chocolate box

but I will round the angles of the rectangles

[lt_oddball]

3.) The legend has rectangles to represent circles. Not a biggy, but there seems to be plenty of room, if you shift things around a bit, to replace the rectangles with circles.

That will be quite large circles then...
Spoils the map...leave the rectangles.

History milestones is good..fine.


At first the blood red splash worked as a ..red flag .. one me.
Despite understanding the idea of the red color of the swiss flag...but then where is the big white cross (in the background..greyer?) ?
After a minute, I got used to the colour and the idea of a having the entire swiss flag in the background (so that parts of switzerland is also red/blurred) is dismissed.

Looks fine and good.

Maybe you can rethink why to have next to french , german and italian speaking circles the "touristic" circles ?
Is Geneva , Luzern not touristic ?
I'd go for handing those touristic circles back to the german/italian/french speaking areas and perhaps add bonus icons to the few cities that are economically important for switzerland: 1st Banking , 2nd International organisations, 3d (Olympic)Skiing resorts.
Conquer 3 out of 5 of these locations and you get a stunning +5 bonus....

[pamoa]

Maybe you can rethink why to have next to French , German and Italian speaking circles the "touristic" circles ?
Is Geneva , Luzern not touristic ?
I'd go for handing those touristic circles back to the German/Italian/French speaking areas and perhaps add bonus icons to the few cities that are economically important for Switzerland: 1st Banking , 2nd International organisations, 3d (Olympic)Skiing resorts.
Conquer 3 out of 5 of these locations and you get a stunning +5 bonus

touristic resorts are on the map because they are important skiing or holidays destinations but are very small town
the "normal" cities were chosen from their inhabitants size
if I put tourist resort bas normal they would be less representative than much larger other cities not on the map
putting them as touristic resorts is in fact a way of speaking about the weight of tourism economy in this country
and except maybe for Luzern all other cities generates more money from services or production economy

about adding another level of bonus by stipulating 5 major cities
Zürich, Geneva, Bern and Basel are the 4 major cities
but choosing a criteria for the 5th is more problematic

Lugano 3rd banking place Italian speaking
Lausanne 5th largest city
Winterthur major production centre

besides adding another bonus level on an already very complicated bonus structure may seems not very appropriate
in 2 or 3 player game it will be already very difficult to figure out how your opponents could get an easy bonus
as you have to count how many cities of each type they have
to understand which bonus is the easiest to gain
and then where on the map they can get it
as any city of chosen type may fit
and then position yourself in order to maximize your advantage
but being able to counter-attack

besides besides I'm still waiting for a draft stamp

[porkenbeans]

sorry porkenbeans but I will disagree with almost all your comments

if you read the history lesson once believing it is part of the gameplay legend
then you have learned something playing CC
besides as you read it once you won't read it a second time when you look for bonus instructions

I put my signature where I want
and once read ...

about putting some idiot tourist symbol of Switzerland
you would never think about a map of USA with some cow-boys, sheriffs stagecoaches and Indians chasing them
I won't do it for Switzerland I respect myself and my country
this is a map not a chocolate box

but I will round the angles of the rectangles

Yes you can put your sig where you want. It was just a suggestion. As for the Tourists symbols, as a citizen, You are the best qualified person to choose what icon should be represented for your own country. The universal icons that I mentioned were just examples, I am sure that you have a much better prospective on this than I do.
As a side note, I would not by any means be upset about cowboys and Indians being used for a USA map, if it were a map of the 1800s. Is there any symbol that comes to your mind when thinking about the time period of this map ? Maybe some flags of the various countries that were the seeds of your country.

[barterer2002]

OK my first time looking at this one. Thanks for the call nobodies.

My first reaction is that its a whole lot of red. I'm not thrilled with that but see that you're going to address the graphics later so let me take the gameplay issues here.

My first reaction is that the Italian bonus isn't much. Isn't there more Italian in Switzerland. Can some of the resorts be moved into the Italians?

I wonder if you've given too much importance to Zug. It feels to me that its a N/S bottleneck point which is something that you've done a great job at avoiding.

Why are the dates in the corner? Aside from the Federal Charter of 1291 they don't seem to have anything to do with the map other than as a brief history lesson of CH.

The highway bonuses strike me as irrelevant. Essentially I see them as something that will be used only when one player is clearly dominant in the game. Not sure if it'll be used other than that.

Overall, I'm looking forward to playing this one. I'd like to see some graphical changes but from a gameplay standpoint it looks like it'll be fun and different to play.

[Industrial Helix]

Well, i thin gameplay wise you're pretty solid, short of a few quirks.

The Italy bonus seems like it ought to be 2.

I'm leaning towards not having a foreign city bonus, this is a switzerland map after all. Seems like it breaks the theme of the map.

The German bonus seems a but large in terms of territories. While I understand the importance of German speakers in a map like this, I think something along the lines of hold 4 territories for 4 men would work better because if I were plying this map, my focus wouldn't be on German speakers as it stands. I would go for one of the smaller bonuses.

I know you're saving graphics for later, but I want to give some thoughts as this is a prelim review.

The A2 highway where it turns into dots... I think this ought to be just a green line. Not sure why you did it like that, but its slightly confusing.

I do like the idea of using the nation's flag to inspire the map and i think you've done it nicely, though I would favor some desaturation of the red.

I also think it would be nice to throw in some borders of the foreign states, nothing too distinctive or flashy though. perhaps a slightly darker red or a gray.

I do like the history lesson as I think one of the cool things about maps is ho they teach us about the area we're playing on. Keep it for sure, though some future graphical overhaul would be good.

On Bienne/Beal... is there are specific reason why its two names? I mean, if it stands for two towns or are two language versions of one town then I'd say pick one and run with it.

Anyway, nice work so far. Keep it up!