Conquer Club

merging this into the map thread in 3.......... 2................ 1.......................

DiM wrote:on the other hand i played a few turns on madness map and i had perfect dice. and i do mean perfect. haven't lost a single troop )

So that's how you do it...

So far 5 armies seems excessive, but i haven't played enough to really pinpoint what tweaks need to be made, if any.

there will almost always be someone that doesnt know the map though that over extends

stlcard1521 wrote:I think castle value should be toned down to maybe like 3 armies, 5 is way too many because then you get 8 per turn. basically what i have been doing is saving most of my armies the first turn, then on my second turn i have like a total of 20 armies, knock out someone who over extended, then i have a 2nd castle and sometimes a resource pair, so im getting like 15 armies per turn, which gives me enough to kill someone on the next turn, etc. anyway, once people figure out you easily win doing that its going to be a cheap map and no fun to play on. but i really like how its the only capital-like map.

the fact that they over extended is their own fault. if they are foolish enough to leave a trail of 1s then it's their own fault. and they would do it even if they had just 3 armies per turn. just like the people that attack on the first turn with every single army they have. it's all about strategy. do it right and you win do it wrong and you lose. i can't tweak a map because some people don't know how to play it. sorry about it.

as it is know i've had some very intense games against people that knew what they were doing and trust me there are a lot of strategies that can make you win a game and make it fun.

stlcard1521 wrote:there will almost always be someone that doesnt know the map though that over extends

and even if i lower the bonus to 3 or 1 or even take out the bonus completely there will still be persons that overextend because they don't know how to play.

i will not lower the 5 to 3 because of those persons because a lower bonus means that 6p games will take forever.

further64 wrote:another suggestion that may deter the castle rush would be be to give the ports a +1 on dice when attacking them. this in addition to your suggestion would (i believe) make the game more fun.

this is impossible to code. dice are random from random.org and we can't change them

i have a few friends over and we're brainstorming the map.

i want 2p games to remain like this but at the same time i want more strategy on the 6p games. people aren't going for resources.

so we thought of a few things to analyze and we'll try to play a game with each bonus setting.

A.

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castle +5
castle + village +2
castle + resource pair + 5
sanctuary +5

higher bonuses will encourage people to go for resource pairs and expand while at the same time you still get the +5 for castles so the 2p games will still be as mad and fast as they are now. also in fog games because the resource pairs and the sanctuary give +5 you won't know if the opponent got another castle or just a pair or the sanctuary.
also if this bonus scheme is chosen the sanctuary will have 5 neutrals on it instead of 3.

B.

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castle +5 (autodeploy)
castle + village +2
castle + resource pair + 4
sanctuary +4


will make the game less of a rush because of the autodeploy thing but it will give an incentive for getting other bonuses. and evenly developing your castles in the nearby resources and villages.

C.

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castle +3
castle + village +1
castle + resource pair +3
sanctuary +3

same idea as the first bonus scheme but with lower bonuses. same confusion factor because the bonuses are the same (+3)
however this will probably stop completely the mad 1v1 games.
i reckon this would make the best scheme for 6p game. really slow paced development, but i'm afraid it would be too damn slow paced.
a few crappy rolls in the first turns might mean that by turn 4 or 5 you could have gained just 1 extra terit. and it would make expansion a bitch.


at the moment i'm very inclined towards option A. after me and my friends play and chat i'll post the conclusions here.

unfortunately we can't play with fog (despite the fact that we're all smokers and the room fills up quickly)

in the meantime please post your thoughts.

i will try to check what you say and discuss any comments.

DiM wrote:people aren't going for resources.

My preferred solution to that would then be to drop the number neutrals protecting them.

In most games, especially with fog, I go for iron mine and blacksmith pronto. If I'm in Aoria, I'll usually try for the corn things (since it's aneasy bonus and I don't make myself show up early by taking a dock). Gold mine and coin mint is protected by many more than really make it worth taking, and thus it's not really viable.

You could do t the other way (raising neutrals), but then I can't see people taking resource pairs, preferring to go for castles.

Hmmm - I don't think upping bonuses is a good idea - did we not work out that total bonus is 200 odd...

I think perhaps drawing the resource pair closer to castle is good... but I still prefer the autodeploy on the castle...

C.

autodeploy reminds me a bit of Heroes of Might and Magic, appropriately enough.

I am a great believer in if it's not broken - don't fix it. I have played mainly 1 v 1 on this map but I have also played 6 player games and others and those that are doing well are being clever and using all the bonuses as they currently are. I think you would be daft changing it in any way

(then again I'm up over 400 pts on this map it got me to sgt. for the first time and I'm hopeful it will continue to help my upward climb - so I am slightly biased)

PS if the map was flawed it should be balancing out ie no players should be doing especially better than others. But it is not flawed and those that are doing well are similar to those that did well on Age of Merchants - people who understand the intricacies and subtle nuances of this map. As one of those people I'm pleading with you not to change what is clearly a winning formula. It would be different if there was a public outcry on the site but the opposite is true this map in its CURRENT format has been welcomed with open arms.

rebelman wrote: this map in its CURRENT format has been welcomed with open arms.

this is what bothers me most. the map is very popular in fact it's much over my expectations. and yet i'm not totally glad with it.
i feel as if somehow if should have been different.

i've tested all the bonus schemes presented above, they all make for some interesting games, with different strategies. and yet i'm not fully convinced by any of them. i guess at least for the moment the best thing is to leave it as it is and perhaps come back at a later stage and do some modifications if problems arise.

Dim, it's too early to tell still if any modifications are necessary.

Whatever happens, it will probably be one of the top 10 maps if not better.

Give it a couple of weeks and see what gameplay develops.

DiM wrote:

rebelman wrote: this map in its CURRENT format has been welcomed with open arms.

this is what bothers me most. the map is very popular in fact it's much over my expectations. and yet i'm not totally glad with it.
i feel as if somehow if should have been different.

i've tested all the bonus schemes presented above, they all make for some interesting games, with different strategies. and yet i'm not fully convinced by any of them. i guess at least for the moment the best thing is to leave it as it is and perhaps come back at a later stage and do some modifications if problems arise.

DiM I see where you are coming from but perhaps you should see this map as two maps in one - a fun map that appeals to the masses (something which you previously indicated you wished to produce) and a map for stategists and thinkers to thrive on as well. I suspected as it was going through the forge this map had that sort of appeal but it really has taken cc by storm since it entered live play.

I do think it is important to see this map as both having mass market appeal and a home for the master strategist as well - the two are not mutually exclusive.

Looks like the map does need some tweaking after all:

1st player to play eliminated someone:

Game 1277457

i agree with pretty much everything that rebelman said and i would like to add, anything you want changed, make it in the sequels

could you possibly tweak the neutral armies to make it so kills on the first go arent as easy to do?

ive seen many people complain about being killed before even getting a turn...

wcaclimbing wrote:could you possibly tweak the neutral armies to make it so kills on the first go arent as easy to do?

ive seen many people complain about being killed before even getting a turn...

he already did, xi and figye have at least 4 more armies between them making this WAY less likely

first turn kills are almost impossible especially in 6p games as they require perfect dice. the probability of this happening is less than 1%.
and that's ok. i have seen first turn eliminations in many other maps especially on doodle. but if this happens once in 100 games then it is an acceptable risk.

if i further increase the neutrals then it will be really hard to develop.

Herakilla wrote:i agree with pretty much everything that rebelman said and i would like to add, anything you want changed, make it in the sequels

as everybody can see chapter 2 hasn't been announced yet because i want to give chapter 1 more time to settle and to gather more feedback on gameplay. when i have enough data i will make some decisions and possibly change the gameplay.

DiM wrote:

Herakilla wrote:i agree with pretty much everything that rebelman said and i would like to add, anything you want changed, make it in the sequels

as everybody can see chapter 2 hasn't been announced yet because i want to give chapter 1 more time to settle and to gather more feedback on gameplay. when i have enough data i will make some decisions and possibly change the gameplay.

in chapter two i hope lol, i think you would have more success doing that

So loved the idea for this map and gave it a shot.

Here's my first game on this map.

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=1285735

Whether it takes great rolls or not I'm entirely against a map in which 1 person can eliminate another by the 2nd turn. Maybe dropping the castle bonus down slightly would curb the ability to eliminate a castle in 1 turn.

agan this map has very little stragey and i think the elite players don even play on it...

I done a few calcualtinos and in 2 player mode this game is over by round 3 , whereas classic map its on average over by round 8. This indicates this map is not fairly balanced at all.

It might prove popular for a while but then it will fall like all the other maps!

Game 1267156 its only Round 2 and 2 players are out already LOL

I think this map makes a strong arguement for the need for beta-testing.