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Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:05 pm

Call me picky, but can you change the Deep Land bonus in the XML so it says "Deep Land regions" instead of "Brown regions"?
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Lcpl Jones on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:37 pm

hi there people. Just played this map in a FOW, adjacent, Flat rate game

apologies if this has already been mentioned before but players starting on Legends of War and Horsemen of the Apocalypse have an advantage. their start points are 1 tile closer to the portals. on an adjacent reinforcements game that is quite handy!
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Blitzaholic on Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:21 pm

Lcpl Jones wrote:hi there people. Just played this map in a FOW, adjacent, Flat rate game

apologies if this has already been mentioned before but players starting on Legends of War and Horsemen of the Apocalypse have an advantage. their start points are 1 tile closer to the portals. on an adjacent reinforcements game that is quite handy!



yes, I do think we tried to counter that with adding an extra neutral or two in those places, maybe the xml did not reflect this, or we forgot, thx for bringing this up. To avoid it being symmetrical, we tried to deploy more neutrals on certain territories to balance it more, we may need to look at this. What you think kab and thenobodies?
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Ogeron on Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:22 am

This map is weak in assassin. Its' layout doesn't entice any of the goals in that mode. Probably doesn't work in terminator either for the same reason it fails in assassin.

I haven't commented much so if this is already answered or a technically impossible comment don't bother to haze me; I'll read the thread and get the pertinent answer.

Game maps that can be exploited by a type of game play should be banned from initiation in that form. Simply, with all the new ever joining members, a map that in assassin and terminator can exploit sitting and blitzing, the only viable strategy to winning; in these modes it is based on people not knowing the map AND should be prevented from using these game modes.

This map like others is greatly suited to slow play, where you are forced to measure the game goals against your opponents likely actions and "bet" on them to your success or demise over time.

But in 2 of the 3 modes, this clearly is an exploit map taking advantage of players unfamiliar with the end game strategy. I feel there is no skill in the play on those two modes and would recommend its use in those modes be banned.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby iancanton on Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:00 am

ogeron, thanks for ur opinion. although we don't have a huge number of 8-player assassin games completed yet, ur case of the winner simply stacking on his landing point till he kills his target in one turn appears to be rather unusual. the evidence we have so far shows that the majority of winners have gained troops from at least one bonus other than their landing point, for example Game 8422994, where red gained a clan's ground on turn one, then advanced into deep land for extra troops before attacking his target.

Victor Sullivan wrote:can you change the Deep Land bonus in the XML so it says "Deep Land regions" instead of "Brown regions"?

i prefer deep land regions too because that's what the legend says.

Leehar wrote:why have the full name for all those in the landing points but not for clan grounds? Obviously if it's because of their being less space in the clan grounds it's understandable, but for a layman, who's to know who DD or EE are? (Specially considering they aren't existing clans anymore) while BSS/ID etc are written out in all their glory. So maybe just the full names in the xml and a key to explain the differences?

it will enlighten those of us who are unfamiliar with the lesser-known clans if the xml, and therefore the game log, says EE - eternal empire instead of just EE, and similarly with all of the other clans' grounds. i also recommend that clans' ground is renamed as clan ground in the legend. it's not only easier to say, but the apostrophe misleadingly suggests that each ground belongs to more than one clan.

ian. :)
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby chipv on Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:24 am

iancanton wrote: i also recommend that clans' ground is renamed as clan ground in the legend. it's not only easier to say, but the apostrophe misleadingly suggests that each ground belongs to more than one clan.



I prefer clan's ground which is possessive singular. If you still prefer clan then maybe clan base might be an alternative.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:05 pm

chipv wrote:
iancanton wrote: i also recommend that clans' ground is renamed as clan ground in the legend. it's not only easier to say, but the apostrophe misleadingly suggests that each ground belongs to more than one clan.



I prefer clan's ground which is possessive singular. If you still prefer clan then maybe clan base might be an alternative.

I'd think an adjective over possessive adjective would be more intuitive, but I suppose the possessive singular sounds fine as well. (God, I feel like I'm in grammar class or something...)
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Lcpl Jones on Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:30 am

Blitzaholic wrote:
Lcpl Jones wrote:hi there people. Just played this map in a FOW, adjacent, Flat rate game

apologies if this has already been mentioned before but players starting on Legends of War and Horsemen of the Apocalypse have an advantage. their start points are 1 tile closer to the portals. on an adjacent reinforcements game that is quite handy!



yes, I do think we tried to counter that with adding an extra neutral or two in those places, maybe the xml did not reflect this, or we forgot, thx for bringing this up. To avoid it being symmetrical, we tried to deploy more neutrals on certain territories to balance it more, we may need to look at this. What you think kab and thenobodies?


adding more neutrals helps balance to some extent, but if you have adjacent reinforcements on and auto-deploy on your base then over the long term it is still quite an advantage to have...

it can also be a bit of a double-edged sword mind you, and having your base nearer to the spawn point could make you more vulnerable, but I think the advantage of being closer outweighs any negative. especially as the key to winning on this map is the deep ground.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:42 am

ok guys, keeping things in perspective. What we'll need to change in the XML:

-change the Deep Land bonus in the XML so it says "Deep Land regions" instead of "Brown regions"

-adding to the clans' acronyms in the XML, their full name. So we'd have 'EE - Eternal Empire' instead of just EE


..as for the Clans' Ground situation. I like the possessive aspect of it. I wouldn't mind changing it to the singular form though - Clan's Ground
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Blitzaholic on Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:48 am

Kabanellas wrote:ok guys, keeping things in perspective. What we'll need to change in the XML:

-change the Deep Land bonus in the XML so it says "Deep Land regions" instead of "Brown regions"

-adding to the clans' acronyms in the XML, their full name. So we'd have 'EE - Eternal Empire' instead of just EE


..as for the Clans' Ground situation. I like the possessive aspect of it. I wouldn't mind changing it to the singular form though - Clan's Ground


yes, I agree with all you said Kab, including then name Clan's Ground.

however, we may need to change:


IA 02, 05, 06 need to be changed to neutral values of 3/4/4?
Thota 01, 02 may need changed to neutral values of 3/3?
LoW 02, 03 may need changed to neutral values of 3/3?

What you think Kab? I am open
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:15 pm

Blitzaholic wrote:Thota 01, 02 may need changed to neutral values of 3/3?
LoW 02, 03 may need changed to neutral values of 3/3?


beacuse of Portal proximity...... well I'm not totally sure if that's necessary. Being closer could have a positive side but a negative as well.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:33 pm

Blitzaholic wrote:
Kabanellas wrote:-adding to the clans' acronyms in the XML, their full name. So we'd have 'EE - Eternal Empire' instead of just EE


I thought there were some concerns previously about how long this would make some of the territory names, and the impact this would have on the drop-down boxes. Where possible, I would encourage shorter names to be used... If you're going to use the full names, perhaps it would make sense to only use them on the clan's ground/base/homeland (whatever it's going to be called) territory? I would argue that abbreviations would actually be easier to use in the drop-down boxes :?
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Blitzaholic on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:18 pm

Kabanellas wrote:
Blitzaholic wrote:Thota 01, 02 may need changed to neutral values of 3/3?
LoW 02, 03 may need changed to neutral values of 3/3?


beacuse of Portal proximity...... well I'm not totally sure if that's necessary. Being closer could have a positive side but a negative as well.



Ok, we will leave this part alone then.

Will we be changing this? IA 02, 05, 06 need to be changed to neutral values of 3/4/4?




MrBenn wrote:
Blitzaholic wrote:
Kabanellas wrote:-adding to the clans' acronyms in the XML, their full name. So we'd have 'EE - Eternal Empire' instead of just EE


I thought there were some concerns previously about how long this would make some of the territory names, and the impact this would have on the drop-down boxes. Where possible, I would encourage shorter names to be used... If you're going to use the full names, perhaps it would make sense to only use them on the clan's ground/base/homeland (whatever it's going to be called) territory? I would argue that abbreviations would actually be easier to use in the drop-down boxes :?



yeah, that is not a bad idea MrBenn

what you think of this Kab? We have the full names on the landing points and clan's ground and use the abbreviations in all other places?

example: leave it as The Horsemen of the Apocalypse landing point, but have it Thota 01, Thota 02, etc. and same for all other clans? It would save more room. How much of a pain is it though?

here are the full names and abbreviations if needed for the 10 landing points:

Thota = The Horsemen of the Apocalypse
BSS = Black Sheep Squadron
TSM = The Spanking Monki's
Emp = Empire
LoW = Legends of War
Legion = ++The Legion++
ID = Imperial Dragoons
IA = Immortal Assassins
Tofu = The Odd Fellows Union
AoD = Angels of Death

and here they are for the clan's ground

L4D = Left4Dead
VDLL = De Veroveraars der Lage Landen
KoRT = Knights of Round Table
Myth = Mythology
O&H = Outlaws & Highwaymen
EE = Eternal Empire
AoC = Agents of Chaos
BotFM = Brethren of the Fat Mermaid
DD = Divine Domination
NEM = Nemesis

so for example Brethren should be either BotFM or The Brethren of Fat Mermaid however we decide, that must of been a mental lapse pages ago. other little details could be to watch for capital letters verse lower case letters.
Last edited by Blitzaholic on Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Riskismy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:14 pm

Hello,

I've just recently finished a game on this map and while I like it generally, I think it has a HUGE flaw that just have to be fixed.

The map assumes 10 players, while only 8 can join. What's up with that? There's enough luck involved in the game as it is, why put even more into it. Doesn't make sense to me, unless conquerclub is making changes to accommodate 10 players?

Also, I'm not inclined to read through 90 pages of discussion, so I apologize if this has been brought up already.

Thanks,
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby natty dread on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:17 pm

Riskismy wrote:Hello,

I've just recently finished a game on this map and while I like it generally, I think it has a HUGE flaw that just have to be fixed.

The map assumes 10 players, while only 8 can join. What's up with that? There's enough luck involved in the game as it is, why put even more into it. Doesn't make sense to me, unless conquerclub is making changes to accommodate 10 players?

Also, I'm not inclined to read through 90 pages of discussion, so I apologize if this has been brought up already.

Thanks,
Riskismy.


How is having more starting positions putting more luck to the game? I don't follow.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Leehar on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:36 pm

I like the abbreviations, tho I do think I tried mentioning that about Brethren a coupla times (tho the meaning could have been lost)
Otherwise, I think legions full name only has 2 +'s on each side, and DVLL is VDLL?
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Riskismy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:47 pm

natty_dread wrote:How is having more starting positions putting more luck to the game? I don't follow.


On many maps it wouldn't matter much, but when the map is so clearly divided up into 10 separate starting positions, with their associated entry-ways into neighbouring clans, it's a HUGE advantage to be placed next to an empty starting position. Imagine starting between two empty clans? It's obviously a great and unfair advantage.

Is this really the first time it's been brought up?
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Leehar on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:34 am

Riskismy wrote:
natty_dread wrote:How is having more starting positions putting more luck to the game? I don't follow.


On many maps it wouldn't matter much, but when the map is so clearly divided up into 10 separate starting positions, with their associated entry-ways into neighbouring clans, it's a HUGE advantage to be placed next to an empty starting position. Imagine starting between two empty clans? It's obviously a great and unfair advantage.

Is this really the first time it's been brought up?

In 3/4/5 player games on feudal(and other conquest map) the same thing applies, It just depends on what game setting you play with. The creators were just looking for possible expansion measures in the future.
Leehar wrote:.."and DVLL is VDLL?"

Some backing for vdll: Cup vdll signup.
Basically the gist is that the initial 'd' is only capitalized because it's the beginning of the title ;)
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby karelpietertje on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:40 am

Blitzaholic wrote:KoRT = Kinghts of Round Table


it's actually Knights of the Round Table, thanks. ;)
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Riskismy on Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:57 am

natty_dread wrote:In 3/4/5 player games on feudal(and other conquest map) the same thing applies, It just depends on what game setting you play with. The creators were just looking for possible expansion measures in the future.


Well sure, it does depend on the number of players in the game, but that's not the point at all. First of all, no matter the number players, the distribution can always end up unfair - and usually it will.
Second, unless there are actually plans to extend the maximum number of players, I don't think the guys behind the map should anticipate any such change. With that argument, I might make all kinds of weird set-ups, because I'm 'just looking for possible expansion measure in the future'.
Lastly, the fact that other maps suffer from this same flaw, does not justify making another flawed map. In fact, it just makes the mistake all the more grievous.

I know a lot of work has already gone into this map, but it is a mistake to let it out of the foundry in the current state.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:26 am

It's not a flaw, it's a feature.


Seriously, though...

I don't think you have considered that there are portals on the map. So each clan is not connected only to it's neighbouring clans, but their neighbours as well - via portals. So even if you start between two neutral clans, it's still easy to assault you via portals, and moreover - being in a sweet spot like that makes you the target of other players who want that sweet spot to themselves.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Blitzaholic on Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:45 am

Riskismy wrote:
natty_dread wrote:How is having more starting positions putting more luck to the game? I don't follow.


On many maps it wouldn't matter much, but when the map is so clearly divided up into 10 separate starting positions, with their associated entry-ways into neighbouring clans, it's a HUGE advantage to be placed next to an empty starting position. Imagine starting between two empty clans? It's obviously a great and unfair advantage.

Is this really the first time it's been brought up?



Hi riskismy, and thnak you for playing the map and providing some feedback. We do appreciate this, however, have you considered that there is portals on this map? As a suggestion, you may want to play another game and perhaps implementing that as a possible option if you dislike your starting position, what is great about this map, is it makes you think and come up with different strategies for different settings and placements. Just a suggestion.

Also, yes, we hope lackattack at some point expands the gaming to 10 player games.


Leehar wrote:I like the abbreviations, tho I do think I tried mentioning that about Brethren a coupla times (tho the meaning could have been lost)
Otherwise, I think legions full name only has 2 +'s on each side, and DVLL is VDLL?


yes, you are correct, thx Leehar. =D>


updated:


here are the full names and abbreviations if needed for the 10 landing points:

Thota = The Horsemen of the Apocalypse
BSS = Black Sheep Squadron
TSM = The Spanking Monki's
Emp = Empire
LoW = Legends of War
Legion = ++The Legion++
ID = Imperial Dragoons
IA = Immortal Assassins
Tofu = The Odd Fellows Union
AoD = Angels of Death

and here they are for the clan's ground

L4D = Left4Dead
VDLL = De Veroveraars der Lage Landen
KoRT = Knights of Round Table
Myth = Mythology
O&H = Outlaws & Highwaymen
EE = Eternal Empire
AoC = Agents of Chaos
BotFM = Brethren of the Fat Mermaid
DD = Divine Domination
NEM = Nemesis
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:15 pm

What we'll need to change in the XML:

-change the Deep Land bonus in the XML so it says "Deep Land regions" instead of "Brown regions"

-adding to the clans' acronyms in the XML, their full name. So we'd have 'EE - Eternal Empire' instead of just EE

Full names (as posted by Blitz)

Thota = The Horsemen of the Apocalypse
BSS = Black Sheep Squadron
TSM = The Spanking Monki's
Emp = Empire
LoW = Legends of War
Legion = ++The Legion++
ID = Imperial Dragoons
IA = Immortal Assassins
Tofu = The Odd Fellows Union
AoD = Angels of Death

and here they are for the clan's ground

L4D = Left4Dead
VDLL = De Veroveraars der Lage Landen
KoRT = Knights of Round Table
Myth = Mythology
O&H = Outlaws & Highwaymen
EE = Eternal Empire
AoC = Agents of Chaos
BotFM = Brethren of the Fat Mermaid
DD = Divine Domination
NEM = Nemesis[/quote]
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby SuicidalSnowman on Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:57 pm

Kabanellas wrote:
Blitzaholic wrote:Thota 01, 02 may need changed to neutral values of 3/3?
LoW 02, 03 may need changed to neutral values of 3/3?


beacuse of Portal proximity...... well I'm not totally sure if that's necessary. Being closer could have a positive side but a negative as well.



I haven't followed the in depth discussion on this point, but after playing a few 1v1's, I think THOTA has a huge advantage due to the proximity. I find most games so far have been races to portals, whether to then hit the deep land or attack into neighbor territories.

Also, the auto deploy on the landing points so far seems to outweigh the benefit of taking territories in a homeland, and the smaller clan autos are generally not worth the neutrals. I would say THOTA/LoW need higher neutrals, personally. Or I can just keep spawning on them, that would be fine too.

Just my two cents. As mentioned, I haven't followed the discussion closely.

Otherwise, I think this map is nice so far. I am finding that in 1v1 settings it relies less on luck or a good starting spawn then say, Feudal or Feudal Epic. Also, a bad first round of hitting neutrals isn't as tough to overcome as in some of the other neutral heavy maps.

Still trying to get some more team games in though.
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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

Postby Riskismy on Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:44 pm

Blitzaholic wrote:Hi riskismy, and thnak you for playing the map and providing some feedback. We do appreciate this, however, have you considered that there is portals on this map? As a suggestion, you may want to play another game and perhaps implementing that as a possible option if you dislike your starting position, what is great about this map, is it makes you think and come up with different strategies for different settings and placements. Just a suggestion.

Also, yes, we hope lackattack at some point expands the gaming to 10 player games.


Hi Blitzaholic,

I don't think the portals make that much of a difference, though they do alleviate the problem. All you need to do is fortify your starting position and the portal, and you'd be safe to expand left and right to your hearts desire.
I know it's not gonna change at this point, but at least I've had my say, and it will be a great map with 10 players in it. However, until then, I won't be playing it again.

Thanks for your time.
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