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Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:36 am
by Blitzaholic
hello highlanderattack and all, I was not made aware of any change, and I would hope to be included in the say since this is my concept before any changes become implemented.

please consider nobodies and kab, thank you.

perhaps shoot me a PM and let's discuss this!

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:28 pm
by Jippd
Yeah came here as well I do not like the change on clandemonium. 10280620 - I see no odds of me winning this as they're two drops surround one of mine and my other guy is way far away.

I also find it weird that a map that made it past final forge was changed with just one person requesting the change.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:07 pm
by patrickaa317
Jippd wrote:
I also find it weird that a map that made it past final forge was changed with just one person requesting the change.


+1

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:54 am
by natty dread
patrickaa317 wrote:
Jippd wrote:
I also find it weird that a map that made it past final forge was changed with just one person requesting the change.


+1


There's nothing weird about it, it's within the mapmakers' discretion to decide for changes after quenching, whether it's 1 person or 100 who's posting about it.

Also, just because only 1 person posted in the thread doesn't mean the mapmakers haven't received other feedback about it.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:21 pm
by Jippd
natty_dread wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Jippd wrote:
I also find it weird that a map that made it past final forge was changed with just one person requesting the change.


+1


There's nothing weird about it, it's within the mapmakers' discretion to decide for changes after quenching, whether it's 1 person or 100 who's posting about it.

Also, just because only 1 person posted in the thread doesn't mean the mapmakers haven't received other feedback about it.


For the sake of debating to debate.

Weird by definition is something unusual.

Maps do not get major gameplay changes every day after they make it past final forge since I have been on the site, in fact I would say it is a rare or UNUSUAL event.

So, I guess the issue of whether it is weird or not depends on your definition of weird.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:36 pm
by natty dread
Jippd wrote:For the sake of debating to debate.

Weird by definition is something unusual.


For the sake of debating...

An unusual occurence is something that doesn't happen often or regularly. A weird occurence is either something that has no explanation, or is inherently absurd or unnatural.

Jippd wrote:Maps do not get changed every day after they make it past final forge since I have been on the site, in fact I would say it is a rare or UNUSUAL event.


Which makes it unusual, but not weird.

Jippd wrote:So, I guess the issue of whether it is weird or not depends on your definition of weird.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weird

weird
   [weerd] adjective, -er, -est, noun
adjective
1.
involving or suggesting the supernatural; unearthly or uncanny: a weird sound; weird lights.
2.
fantastic; bizarre: a weird getup.
3.
Archaic. concerned with or controlling fate or destiny.

Synonyms
1. unnatural, preternatural. weird, eerie, unearthly, uncanny refer to that which is mysterious and apparently outside natural law. Weird refers to that which is suggestive of the fateful intervention of supernatural influences in human affairs: the weird adventures of a group lost in the jungle. Eerie refers to that which, by suggesting the ghostly, makes one's flesh creep: an eerie moaning from a deserted house. Unearthly refers to that which seems by its nature to belong to another world: an unearthly light that preceded the storm. Uncanny refers to that which is mysterious because of its apparent defiance of the laws established by experience: an uncanny ability to recall numbers.

Antonyms
1. natural.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:49 pm
by Blitzaholic
we may need to have 4 starting positions for 1 vs 1 games and dubs games, this may make it a little better for the player who does not go first? what you think on this kab? would this serve to be more helpful?


2 other things for ideas kab, see what you think here m8, see what others think as well.

1. deep lands 4 through 12 could all be 3 neutrals not 2?

2. Tofu 13, IA 12, ID 14, AoD 13, The Legion 14, LoW 09, Thota 13, Empire 14, BSS 13, TsM 13 = all could have a symbol on them representing clan leader land?

These territories are usually meaningless in most games, however, if it was a clan leader land with a cool symbol and a reward of an auto bonus of +1 for holding the land, and a auto bonus of +1 every round you hold it automatically, it may attract some to go for it, creating for more valuable areas to enrich the map. Or if there is not enough room in the key, you could make those territories of neutral 1's?


These changes could help aid in improving the map slightly? What do others think? What do you think Kab?

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:55 pm
by Jippd
Look at your definition of weird...point two...defined as bizarre...now look up the definition for bizarre.

Thank you

So unless your saying that the reference YOU posted which states weird as being defined as bizarre is wrong.. I guess my OP was correct

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:18 pm
by natty dread
Jippd wrote:Look at your definition of weird...point two...defined as bizarre...now look up the definition for bizarre.

Thank you

So unless your saying that the reference YOU posted which states weird as being defined as bizarre is wrong.. I guess my OP was correct


Look further down the definition of bizarre. The differences between bizarre and weird are outlined there:

Synonyms
Bizarre, fantastic, grotesque, weird share a sense of deviation from what is normal or expected. Bizarre means markedly unusual or extraordinarily strange, sometimes whimsically so: bizarre costumes for Mardi Gras; bizarre behavior. [...] Weird refers to that which is mysterious and apparently outside natural law, hence supernatural or uncanny: the weird adventures of a group lost in the jungle; a weird and ghostly apparition. Informally, weird means “very strange”: weird and wacky costumes; weird sense of humor.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:26 pm
by patrickaa317
Has a map ever been pulled back into BETA status? I think with the recent changes and talks of new changes, perhaps it should be done with this one...

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:59 pm
by ender516
The Pearl Harbor map underwent some drastic changes, IIRC.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:35 am
by Dukasaur
patrickaa317 wrote:Has a map ever been pulled back into BETA status? I think with the recent changes and talks of new changes, perhaps it should be done with this one...

There was nothing wrong with the map. It was, IMHO, one of the best maps on the site. Then, a single person complained about it (and not even eloquently or in great detail) and for some inexplicable reason based on that ONE incoherent complaint, the map was changed? And now you think it needs a full-scale revamp because of one single unecessary change that can easily be reversed?

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:45 am
by Kabanellas
Blitzaholic wrote:we may need to have 4 starting positions for 1 vs 1 games and dubs games, this may make it a little better for the player who does not go first? what you think on this kab? would this serve to be more helpful?


2 other things for ideas kab, see what you think here m8, see what others think as well.

1. deep lands 4 through 12 could all be 3 neutrals not 2?

Seems ok :)

2. Tofu 13, IA 12, ID 14, AoD 13, The Legion 14, LoW 09, Thota 13, Empire 14, BSS 13, TsM 13 = all could have a symbol on them representing clan leader land?

These territories are usually meaningless in most games, however, if it was a clan leader land with a cool symbol and a reward of an auto bonus of +1 for holding the land, and a auto bonus of +1 every round you hold it automatically, it may attract some to go for it, creating for more valuable areas to enrich the map. Or if there is not enough room in the key, you could make those territories of neutral 1's?

Well, I see a problem here, that would be adding more confusion to the rules which are clear and conceptually precise. (apart from the problem of not having more room/space on the legend board for extra information)
Why not making those distant region starting with 1 neutral troop instead of 2? they will always be useful for region count purposes
:)


These changes could help aid in improving the map slightly? What do others think? What do you think Kab?

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:05 am
by patrickaa317
Dukasaur wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:Has a map ever been pulled back into BETA status? I think with the recent changes and talks of new changes, perhaps it should be done with this one...

There was nothing wrong with the map. It was, IMHO, one of the best maps on the site. Then, a single person complained about it (and not even eloquently or in great detail) and for some inexplicable reason based on that ONE incoherent complaint, the map was changed? And now you think it needs a full-scale revamp because of one single unecessary change that can easily be reversed?


I agree with you Dukasaur. I loved the map as it was but now it seems like it is going to go through an overhaul.

Kabanellas wrote:
Blitzaholic wrote:we may need to have 4 starting positions for 1 vs 1 games and dubs games, this may make it a little better for the player who does not go first? what you think on this kab? would this serve to be more helpful?


2 other things for ideas kab, see what you think here m8, see what others think as well.

1. deep lands 4 through 12 could all be 3 neutrals not 2?

Seems ok :)

2. Tofu 13, IA 12, ID 14, AoD 13, The Legion 14, LoW 09, Thota 13, Empire 14, BSS 13, TsM 13 = all could have a symbol on them representing clan leader land?

These territories are usually meaningless in most games, however, if it was a clan leader land with a cool symbol and a reward of an auto bonus of +1 for holding the land, and a auto bonus of +1 every round you hold it automatically, it may attract some to go for it, creating for more valuable areas to enrich the map. Or if there is not enough room in the key, you could make those territories of neutral 1's?

Well, I see a problem here, that would be adding more confusion to the rules which are clear and conceptually precise. (apart from the problem of not having more room/space on the legend board for extra information)
Why not making those distant region starting with 1 neutral troop instead of 2? they will always be useful for region count purposes
:)


These changes could help aid in improving the map slightly? What do others think? What do you think Kab?

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:33 pm
by HighlanderAttack
natty_dread wrote:
Jippd wrote:Look at your definition of weird...point two...defined as bizarre...now look up the definition for bizarre.

Thank you

So unless your saying that the reference YOU posted which states weird as being defined as bizarre is wrong.. I guess my OP was correct


Look further down the definition of bizarre. The differences between bizarre and weird are outlined there:

Synonyms
Bizarre, fantastic, grotesque, weird share a sense of deviation from what is normal or expected. Bizarre means markedly unusual or extraordinarily strange, sometimes whimsically so: bizarre costumes for Mardi Gras; bizarre behavior. [...] Weird refers to that which is mysterious and apparently outside natural law, hence supernatural or uncanny: the weird adventures of a group lost in the jungle; a weird and ghostly apparition. Informally, weird means “very strange”: weird and wacky costumes; weird sense of humor.



LOL the debate on unusual --how about changing the map without any notice is :

BULL SHIT--now debate that

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:36 pm
by HighlanderAttack
Dukasaur wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:Has a map ever been pulled back into BETA status? I think with the recent changes and talks of new changes, perhaps it should be done with this one...

There was nothing wrong with the map. It was, IMHO, one of the best maps on the site. Then, a single person complained about it (and not even eloquently or in great detail) and for some inexplicable reason based on that ONE incoherent complaint, the map was changed? And now you think it needs a full-scale revamp because of one single unecessary change that can easily be reversed?




YA think- =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:04 pm
by natty dread
Dukasaur wrote:Then, a single person complained about it (and not even eloquently or in great detail) and for some inexplicable reason based on that ONE incoherent complaint, the map was changed?


Sucks but what can you do? None of you people are showing up in the foundry to give any feedback anymore, so we, the mapmakers, have to go by what we get.

If you would give feedback regularly, instead of only showing up when you want to complain about something, then maybe we wouldn't have to be guessing what people want, based on a single person's feedback.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:08 pm
by patrickaa317
natty_dread wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Then, a single person complained about it (and not even eloquently or in great detail) and for some inexplicable reason based on that ONE incoherent complaint, the map was changed?


Sucks but what can you do? None of you people are showing up in the foundry to give any feedback anymore, so we, the mapmakers, have to go by what we get.

If you would give feedback regularly, instead of only showing up when you want to complain about something, then maybe we wouldn't have to be guessing what people want, based on a single person's feedback.


If noone says anything, you should assume they like it the way it is. Should I go to all my favorite maps discussion boards right now and post that I like them the way they are to avoid changes? Would it help if everyone did that?

Once a map goes live, don't change it unless there is a lot of negative feedback or some serious flaws with it.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:31 pm
by natty dread
patrickaa317 wrote:If noone says anything, you should assume they like it the way it is.


You're totally missing the point here.

Someone did say something, and no one else said anything to the contrary. These changes don't happen instantly here, any one of you could have came here when the change was suggested and posted your opinion. Since no one did, how should the mapmakers know that there are people that won't like the change? We're not mind readers.

All we're asking is a little co-operation, and that people stop taking the Foundry for granted, as some kind of mapmaking machine that just spews out maps automatically... we're just people here, and we try to offer to the CC population what it wants. If no one's here to tell us what that is, we have little options but to make educated guesses. Sometimes they go wrong, and that's unfortunate, but it could be avoided if more people would show up to discuss the changes in the first place...

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:15 pm
by patrickaa317
natty_dread wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:If noone says anything, you should assume they like it the way it is.


You're totally missing the point here.

Someone did say something, and no one else said anything to the contrary. These changes don't happen instantly here, any one of you could have came here when the change was suggested and posted your opinion. Since no one did, how should the mapmakers know that there are people that won't like the change? We're not mind readers.

All we're asking is a little co-operation, and that people stop taking the Foundry for granted, as some kind of mapmaking machine that just spews out maps automatically... we're just people here, and we try to offer to the CC population what it wants. If no one's here to tell us what that is, we have little options but to make educated guesses. Sometimes they go wrong, and that's unfortunate, but it could be avoided if more people would show up to discuss the changes in the first place...


I can accept that to a certain extent but if it goes forever without a lot of discussion behind it, would it be wrong for one to assume that the change didn't make the cut?

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:11 am
by pamoa
wow it's hot in here
maybe my humble opinion could help
as mapmaker when I had some major change issue
I used to pm all the main contributor to my map thread
eventually 2 or 3 dropped in and gave me more feedback
very useful and reassuring

I didn't read all the thread back
but I feel unease to come back on a map started 2 years ago
and quenched since 8 month now
but it may be justified
I don't understand much of gameplay issue

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:45 am
by ManBungalow
I just read pamoa's post above
as if it were a poem
but now I can't stop doing so
and it's really quite annoying

With time perhaps this curse shall falter
Until...uh, something I will alter
To add something to this thread
I don't know what's going on

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:35 pm
by HighlanderAttack
natty_dread wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:If noone says anything, you should assume they like it the way it is.


You're totally missing the point here.

Someone did say something, and no one else said anything to the contrary. These changes don't happen instantly here, any one of you could have came here when the change was suggested and posted your opinion. Since no one did, how should the mapmakers know that there are people that won't like the change? We're not mind readers.

All we're asking is a little co-operation, and that people stop taking the Foundry for granted, as some kind of mapmaking machine that just spews out maps automatically... we're just people here, and we try to offer to the CC population what it wants. If no one's here to tell us what that is, we have little options but to make educated guesses. Sometimes they go wrong, and that's unfortunate, but it could be avoided if more people would show up to discuss the changes in the first place...




Really so where was this big discussion about changing a finalized map?

How are we supposed to even get an idea that this was going to happen?

Concept: When I sign into CC I see a nice area under the home tab that lists things going on. Making a major change without letting people know it is going to happen? Give us a chance to give input.

So really how many great minds decided to give you an opinion on changing this map--which totally sucks for 1v1 play now? Was it one, two or three? A large amount of the CC population in a dictators world.

I suggest that every map has code added that gives me the start--hell add in ten extra armies for Highlander--that would make me happy.

If there are less than three objections in the next five days I expect this to be implemented.

Thank you in advance

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:52 pm
by natty dread
HighlanderAttack wrote:Really so where was this big discussion about changing a finalized map?


You're also missing the point. If you're not here to give your opinion when the change is being discussed, you have only yourself to blame. And if no one is here to give their opinion, we have no choice but to go by those opinions we do receive, plus our own judgement.

And I'm not just talking about you personally, but in general, everyone of the CC population who cares about maps... you want everything to work like clockwork here, and never mess anything up, but you don't care enough that you'd participate and help the process. The CC population is like an abusive husband when it comes to the foundry: You expect the meals to be cooked and the house to be cleaned, but you're not giving anything to the relationship, and if we mess up sometimes, you yell at us...

The bottom line is, if you only show up to complain when something doesn't go the way you like, then your experience of the foundry is bound to be a negative one.

HighlanderAttack wrote:So really how many great minds decided to give you an opinion on changing this map--which totally sucks for 1v1 play now? Was it one, two or three? A large amount of the CC population in a dictators world.


We would have listened to your opinion, but you didn't care enough to show up until you had something to complain about. Of course, it's easier to post when you can whip your self into a righteous frenzy of vengeance against those who have wronged you... sadly, that doesn't often lead to any constructive discourse.

Re: Clandemonium [GP,GX,XML,BETA]

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:15 pm
by deantursx
please change this back. it used to be a very fun 1v1 map!